The things Statesman says sometimes.
By
AdHoc,
Posted on: 2004-12-15 19:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
What are you teaming with, 7 blasters? Defenders and controllers offer vast damage mitigation and/or healing for tanks. If you play smart you don't even need to take an alpha.
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personally I could care less about it... i just like to beat up things, complete missions and get badges... and i would rather not have to read things from contacts...
this is just the way i like to play... so if there will be missions that cannot be solo'd... then I would like the ability to drop them so I can move on and not get my mission log clogged up with non-solo missions...
yes perhaps i should go find another game then...
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I'd like to walk to the corner store and get some milk, but I don't want to have to look both ways before crossing the street. So perhaps I should quit drinking milk...
Really, ignore warnings at your own risk. It's understandable that not every contact gives you a warning that the mission is timed before it starts. But you can bug it and help reduce the chance you'll get a timed mission by paying attention.
Usually the warning about timed missions is at the bottom of the contact's message to you, btw.
Bosses ought to be rare? No! I WANT to fight bosses! They give good XP! If you're street hunting, and not in a trial or hazard zone, you won't often see bosses. And you can skip them and move to the next group.
Inspirations are cheap! Stock up on them before each mission! I have a lvl 40 blaster now, who's done every lvl 30-40 door mission the game can throw at me, most of them solo, and I've rarely had problems. Why? Skittles!
I know I'm going to face a boss or 2 every mission. I also manage my inspirations as I use them in a mission, and be sure to pick up what I need from my contacts as needed.
I think too many of your are willfully trying to take what Statesman et al says out of context for no constructive purpose.
If you pick up the game and never read the tutorial, never read the missions, decide never to ask questions, solo exclusively, you'll STILL figure out how to play the game given enough time. Sooner or later you'll figure it out, or you'll quit in frustration.
If you can complain on these forums, then you're intelligent enough to realize that bosses are tough. Some tougher than others. Not all can be solo'd easily. Each have different strengths and weaknesses. And depending on what type of AT you have, what powers you picked, and how smart you are, you may have less problems than others playing a similar character, in a similar mission or situation.
The things some of you say, somtimes....
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Bosses ought to be rare? No! I WANT to fight bosses! They give good XP! If you're street hunting, and not in a trial or hazard zone, you won't often see bosses. And you can skip them and move to the next group.
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[censored]? ever been to Perez Park? Almost every since group you see street hunting *sh, not the park* has a damn boss in it. some more then one. I dont mind soloing a boss, but when u got 10 other mobs shooting me, PLUS 2 OR SO LTNS, it gets annoying, plus with them RAISING the damage..what the heck?!?! Bosses are already strong enough, especally when you solo, why make them unsoloable for chars lower then the boss?
They said they would not try and force people into grouping...right
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Perhaps because it is so true... Pickup groups... every one I've ever been in has been a disaster. So "I don't do pickup groups" anymore, thanks.
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That's pretty sad, really. Do you just not function well in a group, Fraktal? Most of the pickup groups I've been in have been successful. Or certainly, a far better success rate than 0% which you apparently have.
You're the first person I've ever heard to have no success _ever_ when grouping. That's quite an abberation. I'm impressed.
I've read your arguements in this thread, and although compelling, your arguement is flawed by your inability to be successful when being part of a group. This should be a warning sign for those who might not know what they're about to get into, having you on their team. I can only imagine what you do in pickup groups, which cause every single one of them in your experience, to fail completely.
Mind you, I'm only taking you at your word here. So I might be wrong, based on something you've omitted, but certainly your constant failure to acheive success in just ONE single pickup group HAS to be a factor somehow.
The fact is you can solo through 95% of this games's missions if you play a solo-centric hero. There are a number of missions, particularly in the high 30's and 40's, which have AV's at the end of story arcs, or in select missions. But until then for the most part you might have a boss or 2 in a solo mission.
I see here all 4 characters you list in your sig are great solo AT's, with effective solo power sets. I can't imagine you have much problem soloing too many missions. That's obviously a plus in your extremely bizarre case.
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[censored]? ever been to Perez Park?
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Countless times.
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Almost every since group you see street hunting *sh, not the park* has a damn boss in it.
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Every "single" group you see? Yeah Perez Park isn't your ordinary zone like AP/GC/KR with small groups of mobs. You know why? It's called a "Hazard Zone." Those are zones that are designed for groups. Just so you know, it's been this way since the game's release.
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some more then one.
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Correct. And sometimes you can see 2 bosses by themselves, or groups without any bosses whatsoever.
If you're going to complain about soloing bosses, why not talk about a zone where bosses occur in non-Hazard, non-Trial zones. Or in missions than you took solo.
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I dont mind soloing a boss, but when u got 10 other mobs shooting me, PLUS 2 OR SO LTNS, it gets annoying, plus with them RAISING the damage..what the heck?!?!
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Well it seems you weren't aware what Hazard zones are for. That's basically your problem, not anybody else's.
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Bosses are already strong enough, especally when you solo, why make them unsoloable for chars lower then the boss?
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That would be a red boss, or a +1 boss, just to clarify. Well they won't be unsoloable to all AT's, just more difficult than before, apparently. The reason why? To require you to use more inspirations (or use any inspirations at all - My scrapper rarely uses them at this point) or to encourage grouping.
You can easily read the Dev Digest to get a better understanding of they Dev's decisions here. Many of their quotes have been showcased in this thread actually.
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They said they would not try and force people into grouping...right
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Who specifically said that, and when? Quote please. I'd like to see the context of such a thing if they said it.
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This is a complete red herring and I'm sick of seeing it. Massively Multiplayer != Group-only game play. I can be chatting with 10 other members of my supergroup while I solo a mission. That's still a "multiplayer" experience. So don't pretend that "multiplayer" = "group-based missions" because it does NOT. They are not synonymous.
And I say this as someone who doesn't actually like soloing. In fact I think the solo game is boring. After 25th level or so, the missions are too easy, they are all copies of earlier missions you've seen before with different enemy names but the same goals. The stories are not enough to hold the game up in the solo experience at all, at least not to me. The only reason I keep subscribing to this game is the FRIENDS that I have in it and the multiplayer experience of being in a good supergroup. However, even though that is my preferred playstyle, I still recognize that you can have a "multiplayer" experience without doing grouped missions.
Additionally, arguments about what other MMOs allow or don't allow are silly. I can name MMOs that make soloing possible from start to finish, also. That doesn't make it right, or wrong. Each MMO has its own design philosophy.
If Cryptic's design philosophy is supposed to be that some missions are soloable and some are not, that's fine. It's their philosophy. But neither they, nor you, nor anyone else, should use "this is an MMO" as an excuse to make a mission be un-soloable. It's not a viable excuse. LOTS of other things can give you a multiplayer experience that have nothing to do with missions, and soloable or non-soloable missions do not make a game an "MMO." In fact I submit that a set of "grouped" players who silently go through a mission together, without saying a word other than, "pull", "wait", "ready" and never chat with each other, are having a much LESS multiplayer experience than the guy who is chattering non-stop over broadcast or the SG channel while he solo tanks things in Talos Island or Dark Astoria or something.
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You see the statement that it's a massively multiplayer game because IT IS a multiplayer game. If you cant handle that, then you shouldnt play them.
Your grabbing at straws with your examples of how you "interact" with people. So now using a private message is the number 1 way you interact with people? Selling an item to some random stranger who might as well be an npc to you? You compare that to forming a team who has to use strategy and timing together, otherwise the whole team will probally get killed? You compare that to forming super groups and taking on TF missions? Heck, you didnt even mention the random broadcasted "event" held by a player in Atlas park.
Your grabbing at straws, just like the guy before you is trying to argue that just because "Spiderman takes on bosses all the time solo" that he should be able to take on all of them as well, while neverminding the fact it is a gameplay design problem for every player to be able to solo without any concern. People tend to flock to do what works most effectively; it is only because there is a clear advantage to teaming that people do it. So no, if you lost experience and had less of a chance to finish a mission with a team than you did solo, there wouldnt be as many people teaming up as there is.
Secondly, your claim of having to street hunt because you used your missions has no bearring on this arguement. You already stated you "had to do some missions with a friend". Well gee golly whiz Batman, you just shot yourself in your own foot. There IS enough missions for everyone to do if you team-up with other people who have missions when you do not, now isnt there?
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As it stands now what potentially stops you is that missions, once given, cannot be given up... and you can only have 3 at a time. If they just gave you say a "solo contact" or something, so you'd know ahead of time, then I'd have no problem with how the missions work. I don't mind that I can't solo an AV. What I mind is being forced to street hunt when none of my friends are on, because all my missions have an AV in them and I can't get new missions because you can't delete the old ones.
You may say, "Well find a random group." If you want to do that go ahead. I do not. I am a roleplayer. I want to group with other roleplayers when I group. Not random strangers who talk in leetspeak or what have you. The chances of finding a roleplayer doing an LFG are so small that it is not worth it.
The main problem is that COH doesn't encourage grouping... it encourages grouping with random people. And a lot of folks who want to group, may not necessarily want to do random pickup gruops. Many members of my SG will group ONLY with other members of the SG due to bad pickup group experiences. And yet, if your SG-mates are not on and you have a bunch of AV missions what choice do you have but a pickup group -- which may be decidedly non-fun for you. So even though you want a group experience, you may not necessarily enjoy a pickup group experience. Shouldn't that me MY choice, not Cryptics?
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Oh, I see the problem now. Your a snobby anti-social player who feels they are better than other "random" players in this game, and you dont want to associate with them. Your an "elite" and they are beneath you, unless they can meet your standards. I've seen your type before.
But the reality is if you never attempt to befriend these strangers you have no bloody idea who they are since you've never heard so much of a word they have ever said. Your probally one of these people who judge based on character name, level and build.
Now lets look at a game that has major unbalancement issues because everyone except 1 build can solo (which would be the Full support priest). This game is called Ragnarok Online. There is no real "quests" in that game other than "bring me x amount of this item and you can make this item" and the quests for job advancement, which is a solo endeavor. Because of this, the majority of people are soloers. The only interaction you might get is when they have their pvp events and when people go to towns to buy items from AFK merchants who setup shop with the vending skill. There is a few people who hang around gates chatting...but thats it. There is no real objectives or direction to pull players together into accomplishing tasks together outside of PvP in guilds.
And because of that, the game gets boring. Really fast. There is two ways for a player to lose interest in a game:
1) To have done everything in it and attained all their goals within the game.
2) To get "burnout" from playing a game non-stop the exact same way. This is a psychological thing called "boredom". I read a study once about burnout and playing video games; people who play a game religiously are prone to encounter periods where they are "bored" even though they are doing something that a day before was a very fun experience for them. If we arent continually challenged, if we dont continually have new events transpiring in our gameplay, then we lose interest in them.
Thats why people who solo constantly do not have single characters. I think it is safe to say after about 4 weeks, if that long, they will make another character in effort to overcome their boredom.
Either that or they ask for new game features from the developers who they want to help them overcome their boredom.
This boredom can occur in groupers too, but this is only when their role in a group is so redundant they dont have to think about it; they just do it. CoH has a great deal of variety involved in teamed missions however; you dont have 4-5 builds all identical, people tend to have differences about them which others they group with dont always have. Unless of course, your so high and mighty that you cant consider teaming up with people you dont know, because they "dont roleplay" and that automatically means you wouldnt have any fun killing npcs with them, for some reason.
Being able to solo your early levels is neccassary for MMORPGs. A problem, however, develops when people can solo at the higher stages of the game better than they can teaming up. Communities do not build; you have loose interactions between people who might as well be on AIM except you cant trade game items on AIM. Communities are the thing which keeps a player remaining in a game for years, whether any of you want to believe it or not. This is seven years of experience with MMORPGs I am speaking from.
And the one thing CoH lacks the most is a strong community, which I'm hoping CoV will implement changes to encourage more interaction between players beyond trading items, missions and sending pms. I know they have plans for SGs, but right now interaction between various SGs and their ability to cause change in their virtual world is low. CoV should offer plenty of new opportunities to remedy this situation however.
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The key to a successful MMO is to allow as many people as possible to have fun, but fun can only be had in whatever way is fun to you. If soloing is fun and grouping with random strangers is not, then a game model that forces pickup groups isn't going to make me have fun... it's just going to make me quit.
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I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm of the opinion that the best way to make everyone happy is the "threefold" idea. The contact has three options instead of two, a "Defeat X", a soloable or our now standard "door" mission, and a mandatory grouping mission. Frack, if you want give extra XP for the mandatory group mission, just give us other options besides the friggin' street-sweeping. As its been said, mandating groups won't make the players who prefer to solo group, it will just make them leave.
And for the full-on groupers who think this is a good idea, imagine server populations going down, less money going into the coffers of the developers, and both fewer and smaller updates. If a player who prefers to fight crime by themself plays, what is the reasoning for not allowing them to have the equivalent fun?
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This is seven years of experience with MMORPGs I am speaking from.
And the one thing CoH lacks the most is a strong community, which I'm hoping CoV will implement changes to encourage more interaction between players beyond trading items, missions and sending pms. I know they have plans for SGs, but right now interaction between various SGs and their ability to cause change in their virtual world is low. CoV should offer plenty of new opportunities to remedy this situation however.
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And there's a reason that the people here left those other MMO games. I started playing EQ in 1999, and played it off and on until late 2002, when I took a break from MMO in general due to frustration. When this game started, back in Beta, we heard "you can solo and actually have fun doing it", "good storyline", "fast-paced, the combat itself is fun".
CoH appears to be falling into the same trap that Galaxies did. I'm a huge Star Wars fan, as well as a major comic fan. I started playing Galaxies because I had friends who were, and because I wanted to "live in the Star Wars universe. At first, I had a blast. I worked my way to Master Bounty Hunter and Imperial Colonel, I was an officer in my PA, I had fun. Then came the holocrons, and the Star Wars feel went away totally.
Here, we have a similar thing. We have players who want to play the Punisher or Batman, and want to fight The Joker or "The Russian". And what happens? They're sent up against Thanos and apparently they're the best choice for it? When you need to fight Thanos or Darkseid, you don't call Batman, you call the Justice League.
As far as "community", the solo players aren't all exactly antisocial either. Of course, the best online group of people I've ever known was back in my MUD days, and you almost never saw anyone grouping there, unless it was a PK squad. I was promoted to a "leader" rank of my SG, and why? Because if someone needs a hand, I'll always help them out. Heck, that's how I joined in the first place, an empathy defender in the group needed a hand with her cape mission.
Why, then, do I prefer to solo? Story reasons, I like being able to read mission descriptions, I like being able to play at my own pace, which sometimes involves finding a quiet spot in the mission and going semi-afk while I do other things, but the biggest reason is timing. The hours I play, most of my in-game friends aren't on, and while the grouping I've done with my SG-mates has been good, I HATE pickup groups. But then again, I never like the old "Marvel-Team-Up" comics either, they seemed...forced too.
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Perhaps because it is so true... Pickup groups... every one I've ever been in has been a disaster. So "I don't do pickup groups" anymore, thanks.
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That's pretty sad, really. Do you just not function well in a group, Fraktal? Most of the pickup groups I've been in have been successful. Or certainly, a far better success rate than 0% which you apparently have.
You're the first person I've ever heard to have no success _ever_ when grouping. That's quite an abberation. I'm impressed.
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That is a completely false re-wording of what I said. I am on a SG. I group most of the time.Just not with a bunch of total strangers. I have only done pickup groups (where I didn't know anyone no the group) a handful of times and every one has been a regrettable experience. And no it's not because "I don't group well." Let me repeat so it is clear, since saying it 10 times already hasn't got through yet: I GROUP ALL THE TIME.
Don't take the fact that I am sticking up for people who want to solo to mean that *I* preferentially solo. I don't. I preferentially group. I group most nights. I group with FRIENDS though, not a bunch of total strangers. My point is to GROUP, not to "get through the mission" which is all any pickup group I've ever been on has ever wanted to do. I am a ROLEPLAYER. No pickup group I've ever been on has been even slightly receptive to roleplaying. Again I am talking about PICKUP GROUPS here, not ALL groups.
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I've read your arguements in this thread, and although compelling, your arguement is flawed by your inability to be successful when being part of a group. This should be a warning sign for those who might not know what they're about to get into, having you on their team.
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You clearly HAVEN'T read my posts at all if you think I can't successfully be part of a group. In fact most of the time I haven't died or anything on pickup groups, and the groups haven't failed missions. But they aren't FUN. I play the game to have fun.
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I can only imagine what you do in pickup groups, which cause every single one of them in your experience, to fail completely.
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Nope, never failed a mission completely. Failed the respec trial once... Failed the sewer once when paired with one controller and we were too low. Neither was a pickup group and both had other mitigating factors. I am actually quite GOOD on a team. That doesn't mean I enjoy pickup groups.
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Mind you, I'm only taking you at your word here. So I might be wrong, based on something you've omitted, but certainly your constant failure to acheive success in just ONE single pickup group HAS to be a factor somehow.
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I am not talking about mission success. I am talking about having FUN. They're different for me. So let's not try reading more into what I've said than I actually said.
"Disaster" means things like the time when I was paired with an idiot who wanted to do the nem mission. He got 4 of us together and then proceeded to just run from encounter to encounter looking for Nem, without telling the rest of us he would do that. We had an SKed controller on the team who kept going into the yellow and I, "with no group skills" as you say, kept hanging back protecting her, along with the tank; which meant the team leader (inv scrapper with perma-unstop) ended up charging ahead by himself. He just kept running forward, aggroing mobs, and then dying. Must've had a lot of rez insps. Meanwhile the rest of us had to work our way through a mission (2 of us SKed and one 'proper' level for it) that was meant for 4 (higher level) people because this guy wouldn't stick with it. The rest of us were pretty good so we didn't die, but Mr. Run-Ahead never learned his lesson (I and the tank twice on group chat asked him to slow down, but he ignored us), we never had time to even catch our breath between encounters, and he died a couple of more times against Nemesis himself. After it was over the controller thanked me for protecting her and the tank sent me a tell apologizing for 'what a disaster' it turned out to be because of the charge-ahead scrapper. This doesn't indicate *I* can't figure out how to group... but the entire mission was annoying and non-fun in the extreme and is a great example of the kinds of pickups I've had... after 4 or 5 of those I just swore off them entirely.
Now that's not _me_ ruining the group... Mr. Run-Ahead did that. But that doesn't change the fact that the experience was not fun at all and I have no desire to repeat such things.
So let's not go putting words in my keyboard shall we? I group MOST of the time (except early in the morning when no one on my SG is on). I prefer grouping. I prefer missions that challenge a group. Just not random pickup groups.
However, just because that is MY preference (being grouped), doesn't mean I can't see the side of the soloists and agree with them.
F
Lets see....when we have people who claim they enjoy soloing because other people dont "roleplay" enough -or- all their "pickup" groups suck, then yes they are anti-social people. They are making a prejediced judgement about other people they do not know in order to justify their beliefs on why its best to not play with them.
If that isnt anti-social behavior, then what is? 
As for the arguement about wanting to be Punisher and having to fight Darkseid....oh give me a break. If you really fought "The Russian" every single battle, you would get bored. Heck, if every issue of the Punisher was him vs the Russian, the story itself would be tired and you'd lose interest in the Punisher character itself; just like you will with your own character.
Do you really think your going to find the same level of enjoyment soloing your characters a year from now as you currently do? I really doubt it.
The social interactions between players is what keeps players involved with their games. Being apart of a community, even a small one, is what keeps the MMORPG player sticking with their game. This is the real reason why you left EQ; you didnt become apart of that community, and thus were left out.
But thats a choice you made, just as it is a choice your making here to not be apart of this one by making generalized claims that others arent good enough to team up with you.
Partying has been the best way to form bonds between players in these virtual worlds. You unite for a common goal; if you do well, these other players continue to invite you to join their teams. And thus begins friendships which can last years and cross-over to other games you play with those friends.
Nothing stops you from reading a mission description when partied. You start the mission only after reading it. You have a list of clues to go through after every mission. I'm not sure what your trying to get at here.
Everyone in your SG was a stranger to you once. Your deceiving yourself if you really think claiming the only people who you have fun with are going to exist in that SG and your robbing yourself from new and fun experiences you could be having with other people too.
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Lets see....when we have people who claim they enjoy soloing because other people dont "roleplay" enough -or- all their "pickup" groups suck, then yes they are anti-social people. They are making a prejediced judgement about other people they do not know in order to justify their beliefs on why its best to not play with them.
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OK. One. Last. Time.
I don't generally solo, again except for early in the morning, which represents perhaps 10% of my total play time. I prefer grouping. Just because I am sticking up for the hardcore soloists does not mean I am one. I am able to see what they would want/need/prefer and agree with them even if I don't want/need/prefer it myself. I am making an argument based on concept, not necessarily personal preference. I prefer grouping.
OK, that's enough. I won't say it over again, as clearly a couple of people are just dead set on pretending I am some hard-core, anti-social soloist.
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If that isnt anti-social behavior, then what is?
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Did you even READ the example of what I was talking about in terms of a "disaster" for a pickup group? It may not be what you're thinking when I say "disaster." Try reading it next time. It does not indicate I was being anti-social.
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The social interactions between players is what keeps players involved with their games. Being apart of a community, even a small one, is what keeps the MMORPG player sticking with their game.
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I completely agree with you. What I *don't* agree with is that the ideal way to achieve this is to force those players who don't want to team up, to do so. And again, I am talking on behalf of other people, NOT myself. I prefer to team.
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But thats a choice you made, just as it is a choice your making here to not be apart of this one by making generalized claims that others arent good enough to team up with you.
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So now I'm supposed to game in a way that's not fun (pickup groups) because YOU think it's the right way to play the game?
Sorry... I don't play the game for you. I play it for me. It's fun for me or I bail. Period. Just because YOU think I should have fun playing the game a certain way doesn't mean I will actually have fun playing it that way.
There are 3 ways to play this game, essentially:
1. Solo
2. Grouped with friends and people you know
3. Grouped with strangers
Everyone here has fun playing the game ONE of those ways. Some people have fun playing TWO of those ways. Some have fun all THREE of those ways. I happen to like #2 the best, and find #1 tolerable in small doses, usually to kill time before going to work or something. I happen not to like #3. That doesn't mean I "don't like to group" or am "anti-social."
I happen to like grouping with other roleplayers. Most random pickup people don't roleplay. I don't think roleplaying makes me better than they are, but I happen to not have as much fun if I am on a team that doesn't roleplay. Again what should I do, engage in charity playing the game in a style I don't enjoy because YOU think that's the best way for me to play? Um, sorry, no, I am not going to do that.
Remember these facts: (a) The point of a game is to have fun. (b) You cannot, possibly, force someone to have fun doing things they hate just because it's YOUR way to do them. Fun doesn't work like that.
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Everyone in your SG was a stranger to you once. Your deceiving yourself if you really think claiming the only people who you have fun with are going to exist in that SG and your robbing yourself from new and fun experiences you could be having with other people too.
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Again just because YOU have fun in pickup groups doesn't mean I will. I have had definite non-fun in the 4 or 5 I have tried, so I swore off them. I think that's my call, and I honestly don't think you're in a position to second-guess me on that. Since you can't possibly have any say in what I enjoy.
As for my SG... well, heheh. It was started by me and 2 friends I've had for 25 years. One guy's wife, brother-in-law, and brother-in-law's fiancee joined. Another guy's 2 friends from work joined. Then some of THEIR friends joined (I call these people, affectionately, my "friends-in-law" since they are friends-of-friends, or were, though now they are my friends too in the SG). Those who do not fit that category generally found us because they were looking for a roleplay-oriented team (which we are). So I have a 100% guarantee that everyone on my SG is a roleplayer... and a near-100% guarantee that no one in the pickup group pool is (I've never met a roleplayer in a pickup group yet). Given that I am a roleplayer who has more fun roleplaying in between battles than running missions, is it really still your assertion that I'm going to have more luck with pickup groups than sticking with my SG? How silly.
As I said, there are lots of ways to play this game. I happen to think it's a good idea if the game is open to ALL of them, rather than saying, "Pickup groups are supported and all other forms of play are essentially play-at-your-own-risk." I don't need to be a soloist myself (I am NOT, for the last time) to think it's a good idea if those who want to solo are allowed to.
Because ask yourself this: if I really were the anti-social, hardcoe soloist boor you seem to think I am, would you *really* want me forced onto your team? How is that going to do either of us any good?
F
The points that have been made about "friend groups" vs. "pickup groups" is an excellent one. CoH could use vastly better tools for friends management -- the ability to have a very big list and manage/search it like the LFT screen, for instance, and preferably be able to attach notes on each friend. (I keep a file offline on the people I've friended for the purpose of being able to find them for grouping more easily.)
Like most people, I prefer to group with friends, or at least with people that I've encountered before and found to be good players. However, virtually all of my play experience is with pickup groups; I solo only until someone gives me a team invite.
I have had a tiny number of superb pickup groups, and I have had many mediocre pickup groups, and I routinely have awful pickup groups. These groups tend to be awful because of just one or two people in the group, as a side note. But I'd say that the percentage of awful runs at least 20-25% of the groups that I end up in.
The following stories come from the last three days:
- The scrapper who refused to slow down and wait for anyone else (including everyone running out of endurance), who ran around a room while everyone was unprepared, aggro'd three big mobs, and thus caused a whole-party wipeout. (Most teams are full of good folk who will go in to try to save these kinds of players from the trouble they've gotten themselves into, alas.)
- The 8-person team where not one person had an ability to do pulls, and the fire blaster who thought it was a great idea to open with a rain of fire, aggro'ing an entire cavern full of Vahz and resulting in a whole-party wipeout at the beginning of the very first mission.
- The team doing a mission where all the mobs were huge Devoured mobs, and red/purple to the damage dealer, and there was no one to manage the aggro (tanks with no group-useful tanking powers, a pet peeve of mine), resulting in FOUR whole-party wipeouts before a bunch of people bailed the team midway through the mission. (Yeah, I know. I should leave teams after the first whole-party wipeout, because usually, they're the fault of either a bad player or bad team composition, and it rarely gets any better. But I hate abandoning people.)
- The player who kept going idle. (The rest of the team was heavily suspicious that he was trying to powerlevel without being honest about it.)
You simply don't know, when you start a mission, how well a pickup team is going to turn out. Adjusting your tactics to suit the players in the team is one thing. Coping with players who suck is another.
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Do you really think your going to find the same level of enjoyment soloing your characters a year from now as you currently do?
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Yes. I mainly solo. I'm not anti-social, I like having other players around in the game. But I'm very introverted. I like to do my own thing. Team play grates on my nerves big time. I do team now and then, and I've had some good team experiences, but nothing that attracts me to teaming on a regular basis.
I've been heavily addicted to this game since last June. All my soloing hasn't detracted from my game enjoyment so far. I'm sure it WOULD detract from YOUR game enjoyment. You have to keep in mind that different people enjoy games differently. There are people who enjoy and work best in groups, there are people who prefer to go it alone, and there are many who like a mix.
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The social interactions between players is what keeps players involved with their games.
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It's what keeps you involved with your games, apparently. Please do not extrapolate your personal tastes onto everyone else.
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Lets see....when we have people who claim they enjoy soloing because other people dont "roleplay" enough -or- all their "pickup" groups suck, then yes they are anti-social people. They are making a prejediced judgement about other people they do not know in order to justify their beliefs on why its best to not play with them.
If that isnt anti-social behavior, then what is?
As for the arguement about wanting to be Punisher and having to fight Darkseid....oh give me a break. If you really fought "The Russian" every single battle, you would get bored. Heck, if every issue of the Punisher was him vs the Russian, the story itself would be tired and you'd lose interest in the Punisher character itself; just like you will with your own character.
Do you really think your going to find the same level of enjoyment soloing your characters a year from now as you currently do? I really doubt it.
The social interactions between players is what keeps players involved with their games. Being apart of a community, even a small one, is what keeps the MMORPG player sticking with their game. This is the real reason why you left EQ; you didnt become apart of that community, and thus were left out.
But thats a choice you made, just as it is a choice your making here to not be apart of this one by making generalized claims that others arent good enough to team up with you.
Partying has been the best way to form bonds between players in these virtual worlds. You unite for a common goal; if you do well, these other players continue to invite you to join their teams. And thus begins friendships which can last years and cross-over to other games you play with those friends.
Nothing stops you from reading a mission description when partied. You start the mission only after reading it. You have a list of clues to go through after every mission. I'm not sure what your trying to get at here.
Everyone in your SG was a stranger to you once. Your deceiving yourself if you really think claiming the only people who you have fun with are going to exist in that SG and your robbing yourself from new and fun experiences you could be having with other people too.
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Ok, time to respond. The villians/heros listed, those are what we call EXAMPLES. No, you don't expect the same villians, you expect different ones. That's why Batman had The Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Scarecrow, Bane, and more. That's why the Spider-Man stories have The Vulture, the Green Goblin, the Sandman, Venom, and Carnage. That's why most heroes have what's called a "rogues gallery". You completely missed my point, and this is another example, not an end-all be-all statement, which is that Commissioner Gordon doesn't light up the Bat-Signal over Darkseid coming to earth, the UN would contact the Justice League. And you know what, the heroes fighting crime by themself has no negative effect on the ones who want to do it together. None whatsoever.
And not wanting to team with other people does not mean not wanting to interact with them. I notice you carefully ignored my mention of my PA mates in Galaxies, yeah I was a bit torn by leaving them, but if the game itself isn't fun, then why would you pay money for something you can get with any chatroom/forum? That was the same problem with EQ, I still have my old EQ guild's webpage in my bookmarks. It wasn't the people, it was THE GAME. My first priority is enjoying myself, and you can have all the community you want to, but if the game itself isn't any fun, what is the point of being there? And while we're on the subject of things I said that were ignored, I don't think someone who is really anti social would have joined a SG in the first place, let alone been promoted to leader. If I see someone asking for help, whether or not I know them, I will.
As it was said, City of Heroes has ignored many of the "fundamental" things about MMO games so far. No loot, no crafting, no "maintenance" activities, much more of a coherent storyline. This has been the game that the player who could only play an hour at a time could easily pick up, do a mission or two, and log off. You didn't have to treat the game as a second job. What this has done is attract people who didn't traditionally play MMO games. Most "traditional" MMO games were descendants of the old "pen and paper" RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons, where the concept of the "adventuring party" was core. This is one of the things I like about what I've heard about EQ2 so far, that the "raid encounters" are lessened. This game is somewhat descended from the old "pen and paper" superhero RPGs like Villians and Vigilantes, Champions, Marvel Super Heroes, and DC Heroes, 3 of those I've owned and played. But it's based on comics at its heart. In comics, you have room for the X-Men and Batman, for Archer & Armstrong and Spawn, for the Defenders and for Superman. We have plenty of fun here (missions scaling, trials, task forces, trial/hazard zones) for the fans of say, the Avengers and the Justice League. What about people who would prefer to be like Spawn, Lobo, and Shadow Hawk? Why not appeal to them too?
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I have had a tiny number of superb pickup groups, and I have had many mediocre pickup groups, and I routinely have awful pickup groups. These groups tend to be awful because of just one or two people in the group, as a side note. But I'd say that the percentage of awful runs at least 20-25% of the groups that I end up in.
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Very well said.
This is what I am talking about (and Amberyl's examples) in terms of pickup groups and why I avoid them. Because I can echo every ONE of the examples she gave with "I have seen the exact same thing myself in pickup groups."
Why do I team with friends instead of pickup groups? Exactly why Amberyl said... because with pickup groups I have a very high chance of either a mediocre or a sucky group, and with my friends, I have a 100% chance of an excellent group. Why should I preferentially choose "mediocre to sucky" over "excellent? That would be stupid.
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SHould you be able to solo everything. No. Get over it.
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Why not?
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Why not?
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Because there should be great threats that require teams to fight. AVs and monsters fit the bill. There are also task forces and trials designed specifically for team play, and as far as I'm concerned those are great to have in the game (even if I don't do them myself).
Having said that, Lady Jade is throwing out a bizarre and silly statement. The issue here is the ability of players to solo most missions, which requires being able to solo bosses. There are of course unsoloable missions already (AVs, simultaneous bomb defusing), but they are a small percentage of the total number of missions.
Making bosses too hard would drive unsoloability of missions to an unreasonably high percentage.
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Lets see....when we have people who claim they enjoy soloing because other people dont "roleplay" enough -or- all their "pickup" groups suck, then yes they are anti-social people. They are making a prejediced judgement about other people they do not know in order to justify their beliefs on why its best to not play with them.
If that isnt anti-social behavior, then what is?
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Torturing animals. Lack of remorse or guilt. Inability to see others as individuals vs objects to be manipulated. Learn what anti-social personality and behavior is... its not simply being non social.
Sorry you dont have any real friends to play with in real life, so are forced to make Cyprtic arrange a play date in make believe land.... Maybe they should just randomly assign us to a group when we log in...
Fraktal, but you said you've never been in a successful pickup group. Something is wrong there. I get in successful pickup groups all the time! It's hard to find a group that fails in this game.
You say you group all the time, but 100% of your pickup groups are not successful. Does that seem a little odd? Who else has that sort of abysimally bad odds?
When you say you've never ever ever EVER ever EVER been in a successful pickup group - not even ONCE in all your time playing the game EVER - that has to mean something. That is, if you word means anything at face value.
If you want me to believe you - you need to post something credible. Otherwise I have to believe there is something wrong with you, because you've never ever ever been in a successful pickup group. I don't know how a SG would even know you're a good player in order to recruit you. What happened the first time you grouped with them? Utter failure?
Personally, I can't believe for a second you are totally incompetant. But then, I don't even believe that you've never EVER EVER EVER been in a successful pickup group. Really. Not with the characters I see in your sig, not to mention any others you probably dabbled in from time to time. By no means are you an inexperienced player.
I see both sides. I agree if you want to solo, you should be able to solo your way to lvl 50. Just some AT's and power sets are better at it than others. My mind controller would take me forever, for example. Then there is player skill, etc.
But the fact is there are some missions, I'd guess about 5% in my experience, that are too hard for most AT's alone. That's the exception, not the rule.
If you want to do these missions, most likely the vast majority of players will have to recruit help.
If 100% of all your pickup groups have not been successful, how have they been fun?
One last thing, I didn't put a single word in your mouth. I merely assumed by your own statement that you've never been in a successful pickup group, and assumed since you're the constant in all those pickup groups, the problem must lie with you. That doesn't mean I am claiming you said you're a miserable failure, or whatever.
I've failed a few respec trials to be honest. But I've done the first one 40-50 times so far, and I figure I've failed it a dozen times, all told. Done the second one twice, both successes.
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But the fact is there are some missions, I'd guess about 5% in my experience, that are too hard for most AT's alone. That's the exception, not the rule.
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Which is the whole point of this tread. Very few people will complain if 5% of the missions are unsoloable. However if bosses where changed so that there wasn't a reasonable chance of beating them solo, then that makes 95% of the missions too hard for most AT's to solo.
If this becomes the way things are on live, where 95% of the missions can not be soloed by most AT's, then that is a fairly major change in how CoH currently is played.
As others pointed out, this is not adding new content in, it is changing what was solo content into group only content.
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Bosses ought to be rare? No! I WANT to fight bosses! They give good XP! If you're street hunting, and not in a trial or hazard zone, you won't often see bosses. And you can skip them and move to the next group.
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[censored]? ever been to Perez Park? Almost every since group you see street hunting *sh, not the park* has a damn boss in it. some more then one. I dont mind soloing a boss, but when u got 10 other mobs shooting me, PLUS 2 OR SO LTNS, it gets annoying, plus with them RAISING the damage..what the heck?!?! Bosses are already strong enough, especally when you solo, why make them unsoloable for chars lower then the boss?
They said they would not try and force people into grouping...right
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You DO realize Perez Park is a Hazard Zone; and as such is DESIGNED not to be soloable by players even when street sweeping, right? Or did you miss that in the Players Manual or all the discussions about Hazard Zones pre and post beta?
Again, NOT EVERY ZONE IN CoH WAS DESIGNED TO BE SOLOABLE! It's been that way from day one of BETA.
I just wanted to reply after reading all the statements. Sorry, I would have responded to the threads sooner but family issues kept me away from the computer.
First I would like to thank all those who share the same point of view I do about where this game should go. A couple of posters made some very long and well thought out posts that took into account playstyles that were not there own but those of other players. Kudos to Fraktal and Cursed_Headsman.
Both players are staunch supporters of teamplay. Anyone who says otherwise has not read Cursed_Headsman's arguements against me in regards to the respec trial. Both players took the time to think about players other than themselves and for that I thank them.
It is truly hard to spot and think about what motivates other people without having your personal outlook veil your thoughts. Although I try to see things from everyones perspective there are times when my own selfishness overcomes reason and I post some foolish things.
I posted this time to let other people know that I felt that this game was starting a trend that I felt was harmfull to the game as a whole. I firmly believe that to have a strong team game there must be a strong solo game at its core. Without the strong solo component you are left with a fractured game when not all the pieces are together. Teamplay should be more than simply allowing a group to function together it should take the solo elements of everyclass and combine them with the group to make a product that is greater than the sum. In all honesty tankers and blasters have come closest to this goal with the new changes in I3 in my opinion. Their base abilities allow them to function steadily by themselves but when they are in a group their normal functions that they use for themselves in turn benefit the group more than it benefits themselves. This concept works across all blaster and tanker levels.
For those of you who cannot see where Fraktal and Cursed_Headsman are coming from I would encourage you to pause and try to see things from there point of view.
Icarus_Factor misses the point I believe of Fraktals arguement and wishes dearly that nothing is wrong or is going to go wrong with this game. This is what I interpret from his posts.
G_Kaiser, I don't think you actually read Fraktals post at all before you responded to it. I believe if I remember correctly that you were also against my proposal for an alternate respec trial.
Well there is way to much to go over in this thread in one post. I just want to say thank you to everyone who posted whether they were for or against my position.
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Fraktal, but you said you've never been in a successful pickup group. Something is wrong there. I get in successful pickup groups all the time! It's hard to find a group that fails in this game.
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How do you define success? Again, did you READ my example or Amberyl's? Actually READ them rather than just the first sentence?
Note in my example, we beat nemesis and the villains. We got "mission completed". The mission could thus be considered "successful." I never said I was on groups that FAILED missions. I said the missions were "disasters." The first time I said this, I admit I did not explain, but I then did subsequently, as I patiently explained the "disaster" was not in failing but in not having fun as I went along. To me, gain of XP + beating up villains + mission complete is NOT SUFFICIENT for fun. I need to have people I enjoy chatting with, socializing with, and (gasp) RPing with, as I go along. I do not care about the levelling/mission-running grind. I enjoy being with friends and that is why I prefer to play WITH FRIENDS.
Also note that...
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You say you group all the time, but 100% of your pickup groups are not successful. Does that seem a little odd? Who else has that sort of abysimally bad odds?
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The odds ain't so bad considering I only tried pickup groups 4-5 times and then gave up because those 4 or 5 were not pleasurable. I readily admit I didn't spend hours and hours trying to do pickup groups. Why the hell should I? Almost any time of day except early morning when I get on, my SG-mates are on. I know I will have fun with them. Why should I take the 80% chance (Amberyl's guess) that a pickup group will be mediocre to poor when I know I will have an awesome time with existing friends?
If you accept even a 50-50 chance of a bad group in a pickup situation, then my experience is the equivalent of getting 4 heads in a row in a coin toss. You don't assume an unfair coin in 4 flips that happen to come up the same. Maybe it was bad luck, and the probability is 50-50... (Amberyl by the way would not agree with you). So what? I have two choices: 100% chance of NOT having a lousy time either solo or with existing friends, or 50% chance of not having a lousy time with strangers. I play the odds. By limiting my choice to (1) group with existing friends or (2) solo if no friends are online, I guarantee my play-time never, ever sucks. Doing pickup groups, I can't guarantee it.
Maybe you don't want a guarantee of fun every time you log in. I do. So I take action to ensure it. That's my choice, and you are in no position to second-guess it, any more than I would second-guess yours to play in pickup groups.
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If you want me to believe you - you need to post something credible. Otherwise I have to believe there is something wrong with you, because you've never ever ever been in a successful pickup group. I don't know how a SG would even know you're a good player in order to recruit you.
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Um. Again READ MY POST. My SG was started by me and 2 existing real-life friends. Nobody recruited me. And you're right, no one would know to recruit me otherwise. So what? I do not play COH to play COH... in a sense. I play COH to play a roleplaying game with old friends who now live in all parts of the world (we grew up in the same town). COH lets me do that. I don't need random pickup people to randomly invite me to a random SG. I started out with a group of existing friends and we all said, "Let's play COH." So why, given that I have that, would I ditch it and go play pickup COH?
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What happened the first time you grouped with them? Utter failure?
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No, again READ WHAT I POSTED. I told you I grouped with existing friends. The two guys I group with and I played NWN together for 1.5 years. Then we played SWG for almost 9 months. Then they shifted to COH, and I came along with them. Other people in our group are almost entirely RL friends of one of the three of us. I don't need pickup groups to get into a group. So why would I bother with a random group?
My point was, I *have* a group of very good friends, and it annoys not just me but the whole entire team, that certain things like the respec trial are just not friendly to friend-groups, that our friends list is too small and uninformative, that it is harder than it should be to keep tabs on each other. That, in a sense, the game is much friendlier to pickup groups than SGs. That was my point. You've managed to latch onto one thing -- my lack of succes 4 or 5 times in a row with pickup groups -- and totally missed every point I made.
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But then, I don't even believe that you've never EVER EVER EVER been in a successful pickup group. Really. Not with the characters I see in your sig, not to mention any others you probably dabbled in from time to time. By no means are you an inexperienced player.
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Let me be clear one final time. I went 0 for 5 (or maybe 4, I didn't track it) in pickup missions during the spring and summer when my SG-mates weren't on and after that I gave up. Note that the "0 for" is 0 fun in 5 attempts, NOT 0 mission successes. We succeeded in every mission. Try to understand that mission success is NOT how I determine having fun.
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But the fact is there are some missions, I'd guess about 5% in my experience, that are too hard for most AT's alone. That's the exception, not the rule.
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Did you actually read the posts in this thread? We are discussing standard, mission-ending, orange-con bosses having been boosted so much on the training server that nobody without an uber-build can solo them now. These bosses occur in almost every mission starting with Marrowsnap at level 11. An orange-con boss, a single one, is your level (he cons orange because he is a boss). So what we are saying is that if they make it so that most non-uber players can't solo even-level, orange-con bosses, that'll hose not 5% of missions for soloists but probably 80% of missions. And since you can only have 3 missions at a time, and there is no way to tell whether you're going to accept a mission with an orange-con boss in it, you could conceivably, and rather easily, find yourself with 3 missions you HAVE to team to win at, during a period when you just are not in the mood to be sociable. Why is it so hard for people to understand that this kind of circumstance (a) will become extremely common if the boss buffs go in as they are and (b) is not desirable in a game?
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If 100% of all your pickup groups have not been successful, how have they been fun?
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Clearly you are not reading what I said. I judge success as follows:
success = fun = success
In other words, if I die 10 times and fail the mission but had a lot of fun doing it (as is generally true with my SG mates even when we all die in things like the respec trial), then I'm good. If I "complete" the mission but had no fun at all, then I consider it "not worth it."
My pickup missions haven't been failures of doing missions, they've been failures of having fun. They've been me teamed up with 3-5 nice people and 1-2 absolute idiots who ruin the entire experience for me and make me want to log out. That happened to me 4 or 5 times in a few weeks in May-June and I gave up on pickup groups. And since I don't NEED pickup groups because I have an SG, they were the easiest thing in the world to give up.
Are we, finally, clear here? Yeesh.
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I've failed a few respec trials to be honest. But I've done the first one 40-50 times so far, and I figure I've failed it a dozen times, all told. Done the second one twice, both successes.
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Good for you. Glad you could beat your chest and tell us how great you are.
I've done the respec once. With friends and fellow SG-mates. One of them messed up, and he was the highest level of us, so the rest of us were fighting +3 enemies, and then he levelled during the first mission (oops) so then we were all fighting +4s but him. So we failed the respec and everyone died and got lots of debt. We also didn't know you could heal the reactor, LOL.
Despite that it was fun. We had a blast because we were roleplaying and one guy who has a great sense of humor made it funny. I enjoyed doing it with those 3, and would do it with them again if they asked. We FAILED the mission, but I don't consider that group a failure or "disaster" because, for the 2 hours or so we were on the mission I had fun.
FUN is the yardstick I use in any game, because it is the only thing that matters... not how much XP I got, how many respec badges I have, how fast I levelled, or any of that crap. FUN... that's it.
Pickup groups (the 4 or 5 I've tried) have been NOT FUN (not NOT SUCCESSFUL... NOT FUN), and thus I don't do them any more.
Again, if YOU have fun doing them, go ahead. That doesn't change the fact that not everyone ELSE has fun doing them, that I don't, or that the game is much friendlier to pickup groups than to permanent groups of friends.
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Boss hit points went up 40%
Boss regen went up, presumably 40%
Boss damage went up 40%. Why? Apparantly, hit points tie directly into mob damage.
This is bad for soloers and large groups. Why do this? Has anyone seen a Red Name explain the reasoning? Perhaps that will occur in their new dev section.
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Because I'm sure it's intended that I solo 2 or more purple con bosses...
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Whats great is how I'm expected to hold a room with multiple bosses that can all one hit me. Move over controllers, and make way for the tanks, the true CC of CoH... I dont grudge tanks the increased capability to do their role. I do grudge the devs making things a hell of a lot riskier for me. Limit the number of bosses spawning for teams then... honestly, HOW many "bosses" should be running around?