The things Statesman says sometimes.
By
AdHoc,
Posted on: 2004-12-15 19:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Sometimes I can solo bosses 5 or 6 levels higher than I am. I have to have the right inspirations and burn them up at the right moments, not screw up, and face the possibility that I might die anyway. Why do I do it? It's fun, because I take the risk and, if I win, actually get a significant reward!!!
Imagine the fun when it's so hard to fight a boss that you need a team to take on an even one. Wow, look at that xp reward! Now just do it several hundred more times and you might gain a level...some day! Didn't that feel climactic? Wasn't that all worth it?
As it is: higher level bosses=risky challenge, worth it for excitement and reward
As devs seem to want it=higher level bosses are game content closed off to you
[ QUOTE ]
Which is the whole point of this tread. Very few people will complain if 5% of the missions are unsoloable.
[/ QUOTE ]
However, we have that now, and look at the threads we have by people complaining they have to get others to help them finish some missions? One person on these forums complains he has 3 missions now he cannot solo because of AV's, and he's so frustrated. Oh how the game forces grouping, and so forth. This is just proof that you can't please everyone all of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
However if bosses where changed so that there wasn't a reasonable chance of beating them solo, then that makes 95% of the missions too hard for most AT's to solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, if 95% of all missions were impossible to solo, you'd have a point. The fact is, that's not even the case on Live. I've already tried most of my alts (all of whom are 25+) on Test and they can all solo, even my highly pathetic mind controller (Psyclonus) can still solo, though not his missions because I didn't design him to be an effective soloer. I just avoid LT's and bosses with him as I normally do.
[ QUOTE ]
If this becomes the way things are on live, where 95% of the missions can not be soloed by most AT's, then that is a fairly major change in how CoH currently is played.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. But as I can certainly tell through testing on the test server, that's nowhere near the case.
YES it will be harder, to whatever extent, to fight bosses. But not impossible solo, just harder. With the characters I've tested to fight bosses it's only marginally more difficult. My blaster still drops in 2 shots from an even-con boss if hit. My scrapper has to use a little more endurance, the endurance hog that he is. My fire tanker has to put down another burn patch. And so forth.
[ QUOTE ]
As others pointed out, this is not adding new content in, it is changing what was solo content into group only content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not hardly. Not even remotely close in my experience. I don't know how specifically others are having problems but I've got 2 tankers, a scrapper, 2 blasters that can still solo bosses just fine on Test. If I had a free respec I'd test Psyclonus on Live and Test and make him a solo build, and see if there is a significant change. But there isn't on my other characters, for sure.
Well I respectfully disagree with you Concern that a strong group game must be comprised of strong soloers. But I agree that a game like CoH should have competant solo classes because clearly some people like soloing more than others, and some people like having the option of soloing effectively while waiting for groups, etc.
We do see the dynamic that some classes can solo better than others, but offer less to a large group than the less competant soloers who are more geared for group play.
That happens, and I don't think anyone has a problem with that.
I don't believe this game is starting a bad trend, in making the content harder. I see that as neccessary, because quite frankly much of it is just to easy. And is at best, time consuming.
I come from a strong background of FPS shooters, and maybe that colors my opinion. But I found all my local LAN parties boring beause quite frankly I outstripped all my friends in skill. It's only modestly fun winning a tournament LAN with only an Impact hammer.
This is essentially what much of the gaming in CoH has become, for quite a few AT's.
I can't tell you the last time my 2 blasters, 2 tankers and 1 scrapper sweated in a mission, solo. My SR scrapper, as "gimped" as he is for not being Regen or INV, can take on a dozen even-con mobs constantly on the streets of IP, and only have to pop a couple CaB's per fight, and if things go south, 1 Respite. I've yet to encounter anything hard for him since the Atta mission in the Hollows. At most I see 3-4 even cons in a mission tight enough to all aggro, solo, and that's no challenge at all.
I do agree that it's probably significantly harder for a fringe-soloer to fight bosses, but I doubt it's impossible.
I see where Fraktal and CH are coming from, I agree with them that grouping is more fun than soloing, for the most part. I also agree that people who are built to solo should still be able to solo. But I disagree with the notion that this game should not a) encourage grouping or b) the game shouldn't be more challenging. Solo missions need to be more challenging. Not merely upcoming ones that are being created, but existing ones. Because most of them are very easy until you come up against the AV in the mission. But frequently the only challenge I find in any missions period are when bosses are in them, and that varies depending on which hero I am playing, which boss might be challenging at all.
Sure there is the mission slider, and that helps. But even at "hard boiled" the game is too easy. I still am having fun with it, but it's not the same thing. The only way to have any risk in the game is with groups, in my opinion, but to me that's just more fun. This is totally outside the social aspect of teaming with friends or other heroes and fighting villainy with them.
Bottom line: I haven't seen on Test, through my testing, how increasing the health and damage of bosses on test in any way makes this game dramatically harder. Or a less soloable game. Not to any significant measure. I'd argue a change to the AI to make villains smarter is a better alternative than raising HP/DMG, but that should be done across the board.
Will that make the game harder to solo? Certainly. But it would make the game more fun, and allow tactics to be more important. Right now if you have a tanker or controller, or decent scrapper in the group, you can herd or hold a small group while the damage dealers take care of the dirty work. Very simple tactics, and they work every time. The other tactic is to let the AoE blasters go to town and decimate the group in seconds. At lvl 32+ a 3-blaster group can wipe any street corner their level, or any mission with barely a scratch, regardless of minions, LT or boss. Just take turns with Nova/Inferno/etc. Once they reach an AV they suddenly need a tanker and a practically any defender or controller. That's about it.
[ QUOTE ]
How do you define success?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not ending in failure. The important question to you is, how do YOU define success?
You're the one making the claim you've never been in a successful pickup group ever. EVER! Unless you're playing around with the meaning of "success" that's not good.
Pickup groups are bad. Because in your experience they are never ever successful when you've been in them. Then you turn around and say well we completed missions so in that sense they were successful but I wasn't having as much fun, and so forth. You're playing around with semantics Fraktal.
[ QUOTE ]
Note in my example, we beat nemesis and the villains. We got "mission completed". The mission could thus be considered "successful." I never said I was on groups that FAILED missions. I said the missions were "disasters." The first time I said this, I admit I did not explain, but I then did subsequently, as I patiently explained the "disaster" was not in failing but in not having fun as I went along. To me, gain of XP + beating up villains + mission complete is NOT SUFFICIENT for fun. I need to have people I enjoy chatting with, socializing with, and (gasp) RPing with, as I go along. I do not care about the levelling/mission-running grind. I enjoy being with friends and that is why I prefer to play WITH FRIENDS.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again this is your fault you aren't having fun, not your teammates, or Cryptics. You need to take personal responsibility for your own emotional state.
What characters are you having a hard time fighting bosses on Test btw? In your sig you have 2 characters that are even lvl 25+ and one is a SR scrapper. If you're doing a solo mission, I can't imagine how often you come up against a boss or 2 that would even give you trouble.
And btw this example is clearly on Live. Unless you managed to get a pickup group on Test to help you with that AV. Which is highly unlikely in my experience.
[ QUOTE ]
The odds ain't so bad considering I only tried pickup groups 4-5 times and then gave up because those 4 or 5 were not pleasurable.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you don't even have a good sample of experience to draw upon - I get it. You've got a lvl 42 and 28 hero but you've only joined 4-5 pickup groups ever. And by your own admission you've successfully completed missions with them. But not a single one of those was successful because you somehow had no fun.
That seems like such an extreme case. Who else has spent, what 600+ hours in the game, like you apparently have (not bad at all really, shows you have considerable experience) and have only ever joined pickup groups 4-5 times ever, but not once had any fun with them?
[ QUOTE ]
I readily admit I didn't spend hours and hours trying to do pickup groups. Why the hell should I?
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said it was a requirement. I just note that you're complaining about an aspect of the game that's happened so rarely with you. You've only joined/formed pickup groups 4-5 times, yet been able to complete missions because of it, but haven't had fun. I DO however think that for you to be a successful advocate for or against pickup groups, you should have at least have some considerable experience doing it. You've had successful missions with groups, but because you of all people don't have fun doing them, pickup groups as a whole are bad? Don't you see the flaw in that line of reasoning?
Lets also keep in mind what you've said in the past Fraktal. That "the main problem is that COH doesn't encourage grouping... it encourages grouping with random people." I just don't see how that's possible. That CoH somehow encourages one form of grouping over, like other Random versus Planned. Clearly you've been far more successful grouping with friends and SG mates (though how you ever grouped with them in the first place, and had either success or fun, is another story) than with total strangers.
But having played EQ and DAOC and now CoH I don't see how CoH is somehow different from any other MMORPG with regards to ease of grouping. Particularly one form of grouping over another. I'd go as far as to say it's easier to group in CoH now than I've ever had it in the 2 other MMO's I've tried.
[ QUOTE ]
Almost any time of day except early morning when I get on, my SG-mates are on. I know I will have fun with them. Why should I take the 80% chance (Amberyl's guess) that a pickup group will be mediocre to poor when I know I will have an awesome time with existing friends?
[/ QUOTE ]
Amberyl's guess is also insane. 80% of pickup groups will be mediocre to poor? You and him/her just have horrible, horrible luck. In Atlas or Perez Park or the Hollows. My success rate with pickup groups is easily better than 80%. That's not even chest-beating. My example isn't unusual. I just can't fathom having that bad a time as what you and him/her are describing. Of course, you're description of success is fun, and you somehow can't have fun with new people in pickup groups, no matter how easily you get through missions.
[ QUOTE ]
If you accept even a 50-50 chance of a bad group in a pickup situation, then my experience is the equivalent of getting 4 heads in a row in a coin toss. You don't assume an unfair coin in 4 flips that happen to come up the same. Maybe it was bad luck, and the probability is 50-50... (Amberyl by the way would not agree with you). So what? I have two choices: 100% chance of NOT having a lousy time either solo or with existing friends, or 50% chance of not having a lousy time with strangers. I play the odds. By limiting my choice to (1) group with existing friends or (2) solo if no friends are online, I guarantee my play-time never, ever sucks. Doing pickup groups, I can't guarantee it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well you're just such an extreme case in so many ways then. I am sure there is a fringe you are a champion of, the "anti-pickup group" crowd, but for the vast majority of people, I doubt that's the case.
You only want a guarantee of fun. A 100% guarantee of fun, or else. That's a standard you have, but that is clearly an extreme case. You craft a standard for yourself that is probably foreign to most players in the game. The good news is that the rest of the people on the server don't have to be held to such a standard because they'll never EVER EVER group with you.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you don't want a guarantee of fun every time you log in. I do. So I take action to ensure it. That's my choice, and you are in no position to second-guess it, any more than I would second-guess yours to play in pickup groups.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I'm not second-guessing you. I just take you at your word that you never have any success in pickup groups. Then you say well success is only measured by fun, not the fact the group is completing missions successfully. You admit you weren't clear but chastise me for taking your words out of context. Ok.
No, I don't expect a 100% guarantee of fun every time I log in. But I also take an active role in the groups I form. I create more groups than I join, but I join groups to. Unlike you, I am a proponent of all types of grouping. Not just one single type: friend/SG grouping. While I too also group with friends and SG mates more often than pickup groups. I have joined COUNTLESS pickup groups. Not a handful, and I've had a large, VERY LARGE, margin of success because of it.
[ QUOTE ]
Um. Again READ MY POST. My SG was started by me and 2 existing real-life friends. Nobody recruited me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um. Read MY post. My statement was to whether or not I "know how a SG would even know you're a good player in order to recruit you."
To which, oddly enough you replied:
[ QUOTE ]
And you're right, no one would know to recruit me otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
So I'm right. Thank you. That is all.
[ QUOTE ]
So why, given that I have that, would I ditch it and go play pickup COH?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's up to you whether or not you group with others. I just find your examples of "success" dubious and disagree with your notion that pickup groups are bad because of your unique and extreme PoV on them. You even admit you've successfully completed missions, etc, but that's not good enough for you. You also admit that no other SG would probably know to recruit you. You won't even play the game unless there is 100% certainty of "success" by your standard.
[ QUOTE ]
No, again READ WHAT I POSTED. I told you I grouped with existing friends. The two guys I group with and I played NWN together for 1.5 years. Then we played SWG for almost 9 months. Then they shifted to COH, and I came along with them. Other people in our group are almost entirely RL friends of one of the three of us. I don't need pickup groups to get into a group. So why would I bother with a random group?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because as you have admitted, your friends aren't on all the time with you. Or else you wouldn't have needed to join those 4-5 pickup groups and have total failure with them even though you completed missions successfully, etc.
Even you would have to admit your PoV is extreme here, right?
[ QUOTE ]
My point was, I *have* a group of very good friends, and it annoys not just me but the whole entire team, that certain things like the respec trial are just not friendly to friend-groups, that our friends list is too small and uninformative, that it is harder than it should be to keep tabs on each other.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I've done the respec trial 40+ times now (Sky Raiders) and while I've failed probably a dozen times, mostly early on, I've had fun on practically all of them. I know a couple ended in disaster and I didn't have fun. But that's the exception not the rule. And I'm made a lot of new friends this way that you just can't being solo and grouping only with friends.
I do agree with you we need a larger friend list. But I parse everything that's not in my SG and those who've been playing any time recently. I'll wager money I have tons more friends than you in game. Easily. Because of pickup groups. And still I've done fine with the current friend list as others move on, remove alts, stop being in contact with me, and so forth. Sure, increase the friend list and SG list. No disagreement there.
[ QUOTE ]
That, in a sense, the game is much friendlier to pickup groups than SGs. That was my point. You've managed to latch onto one thing -- my lack of succes 4 or 5 times in a row with pickup groups -- and totally missed every point I made.
[/ QUOTE ]
No I just find it very extreme, your case. Believe it or not I agree with your reasoning to group with friends and SG mates more than pickup groups. I just disagree with the notion that pickup groups are bad as a rule. And totally bemused by your 100% failure rating for pickup groups based on 4-5 pickup groups in your entire history of playing the game, despite their obvious success in completing missions, etc.
One question, were the people who grouped with you having fun? Or were they having as little success with you having fun? Did they enjoy grouping with you at all? Helping you with your mission?
[ QUOTE ]
Let me be clear one final time. I went 0 for 5 (or maybe 4, I didn't track it) in pickup missions during the spring and summer when my SG-mates weren't on and after that I gave up. Note that the "0 for" is 0 fun in 5 attempts, NOT 0 mission successes. We succeeded in every mission. Try to understand that mission success is NOT how I determine having fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're totally clear. Just it seems to me it's more a problem on your end than a problem with those in the pickup groups with you.
[ QUOTE ]
Did you actually read the posts in this thread? We are discussing standard, mission-ending, orange-con bosses having been boosted so much on the training server that nobody without an uber-build can solo them now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I read the whole thing. The fact I took exception at some of your comments should be a clue that some of your comments are just really weird. You admit I'm right in some of them, too.
Only my fire tanker is a solo-opitmized build. My glass-cannon blasters are more group-oriented. And my Scrapper is SR, which I'm sure you can attest to in the lower levels, is not an uber solo set. In fact I only have 2 defense powers, FF and FS, with Hasten and CJ providing barely passable extra defense. Yet I'm just as successful on Test as I am on Live with Donnybrook.
YOU have an SR scrapper - and I am surprised you aren't having the same sort of success I am. And no doubt you have a better build than I do.
I do agree with you that the fringe builds. Those that barely solo well on Live, will have problems with the bosses on Test. But inspirations or teammates will help. And really if this game doesn't get more challenging for us at the higher levels, that's not going to bode well in the months to come.
Bottom line: If you make a less than optimal soloing character, and you intend to solo 100% of the time, you are going to have problems, even on Live. You can't sit here and complain about the solo-centric AT's and builds which will still be successful. You can't complain about the solo-adverse AT's and builds which solo poorly anyways, and now solo more poorly against bosses that are lvl 25+. By then you should have worked out whether or not you're character is a competent soloer, and regardless, everyone should need help with AV's and Monsters.
[ QUOTE ]
These bosses occur in almost every mission starting with Marrowsnap at level 11. An orange-con boss, a single one, is your level (he cons orange because he is a boss).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well this is a change that is lvl 25+ not lvl 11+. And yes the game will be similar below lvl 25 as it is to Live.
[ QUOTE ]
So what we are saying is that if they make it so that most non-uber players can't solo even-level, orange-con bosses, that'll hose not 5% of missions for soloists but probably 80% of missions. And since you can only have 3 missions at a time, and there is no way to tell whether you're going to accept a mission with an orange-con boss in it, you could conceivably, and rather easily, find yourself with 3 missions you HAVE to team to win at, during a period when you just are not in the mood to be sociable. Why is it so hard for people to understand that this kind of circumstance (a) will become extremely common if the boss buffs go in as they are and (b) is not desirable in a game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well first of all you're jumping to the conclusion that all missions lvl 25+ with bosses will be impossible to solo. That's a rather hasty conclusion, don't you think? Sure the game will be harder for fringe soloists, but really, how much more difficult are we talking about? I've seen nothing but dubious conjecture on your part, as someone that doesn't even play a fringe soloer. For my less than optimal builds I solo just fine. The only experience I don't have at higher levels, soloing, is with a defender. I've played the other 4 AT's lvl 25+ and the game is still playable, including bosses. And somehow I don't think a smart defender is going to have a problem soloing a boss or 2.
The game is modestly more challenging at lvl 25+ and apparently for the fringe soloers. That's my take so far, with the characters I have tested.
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly you are not reading what I said. I judge success as follows:
success = fun = success
[/ QUOTE ]
No I read what you said, I just don't understand how you can't have fun in an otherwise successful group. I notice to date you STILL haven't answered that question.
Am I going to get an answer Fraktal?
[ QUOTE ]
In other words, if I die 10 times and fail the mission but had a lot of fun doing it (as is generally true with my SG mates even when we all die in things like the respec trial), then I'm good. If I "complete" the mission but had no fun at all, then I consider it "not worth it."
[/ QUOTE ]
We know how you define "success." That is "fun." How do you define "fun" then? You seem to constantly avoid answering that question. How about a real stab. Not another explanation as to success = fun. What is success/fun to you? Since clearly it's not completing a mission objective, getting XP, grouping with anyone else other than RL friends, etc.
[ QUOTE ]
My pickup missions haven't been failures of doing missions, they've been failures of having fun. They've been me teamed up with 3-5 nice people and 1-2 absolute idiots who ruin the entire experience for me and make me want to log out. That happened to me 4 or 5 times in a few weeks in May-June and I gave up on pickup groups. And since I don't NEED pickup groups because I have an SG, they were the easiest thing in the world to give up. Are we, finally, clear here? Yeesh.
[/ QUOTE ]
No you've always been clear that success = fun, and that you've never been in a successful pickup group because you've had fun. The question remains, what is success to you then if it's not successfully getting XP, completing missions, and so forth?
[ QUOTE ]
Good for you. Glad you could beat your chest and tell us how great you are.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hardly beating my chest about it. That's just how some of my characters get XP in their 20's and lower 30's. I do missions with 3 of my characters, to experience game content. The respec trial is a very lucrative XP deal and it beats whining for powerlevelling in PI, and allows me to actually contribute, not stand around, bored.
[ QUOTE ]
I've done the respec once. With friends and fellow SG-mates. One of them messed up, and he was the highest level of us, so the rest of us were fighting +3 enemies, and then he levelled during the first mission (oops) so then we were all fighting +4s but him. So we failed the respec and everyone died and got lots of debt. We also didn't know you could heal the reactor, LOL. Despite that it was fun. We had a blast because we were roleplaying and one guy who has a great sense of humor made it funny. I enjoyed doing it with those 3, and would do it with them again if they asked. We FAILED the mission, but I don't consider that group a failure or "disaster" because, for the 2 hours or so we were on the mission I had fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. I had fun nearly all the time, in all my respec trials, except in the last moments of failure. Sometimes that was the catalyst for a successful one right afterwards. But I am not going to say "thanks for beating your chest for having fun" because that's just silly.
I'm not here to deride you for having fun. I am here to get you to clarify what specifically is fun since mission completion, XP, grouping with others that aren't RF friends, etc are not. You made quite a few hefty claims in this thread against pickup groups, to have it become obvious that you're no expert on pickup groups. Hardly a source of viable information. Especially when your standards are so far out of norm for what defines "success" in a pickup group.
Fun is apparently an abstract concept that has no correlation to "doing well" yet somehow is the very definition of "success" for you. Yet you complain to me as if I am somehow being unclear here. Or not paying attention. Or taking your words out of context. Nevermind that you admit you weren't clear earlier, and admitted I was right on some points. The fault for my not understanding what you mean by success/fun isn't with me, but rather your inability or desire to explain it.
[ QUOTE ]
FUN is the yardstick I use in any game, because it is the only thing that matters... not how much XP I got, how many respec badges I have, how fast I levelled, or any of that crap. FUN... that's it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then you should use "fun" as your yardstick, not success. Because if anything you've said you've been successful in pickup groups except for some less-than-clear explanation of fun that's totally independant of measurable goals like XP, completed missions, and so forth.
[ QUOTE ]
Pickup groups (the 4 or 5 I've tried) have been NOT FUN (not NOT SUCCESSFUL... NOT FUN), and thus I don't do them any more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Totally understood. But you'll understand if the majority of people disagree with such an absolute statement. Or don't equate success with only fun.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, if YOU have fun doing them, go ahead. That doesn't change the fact that not everyone ELSE has fun doing them, that I don't, or that the game is much friendlier to pickup groups than to permanent groups of friends.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. Just don't expect everyone to have the same values as you either. I'd bet far more people would agree with me that pickup groups can be successful AND fun, in more ways than just you envision. Just because you write them off entirely doesn't mean the rest of the players will.
Gee... I dunno about the rest of you, but I don't have a lot of trouble soloing bosses with my lvl19 mind/emp controller. OK, it isn't fast (gotta snipe at the minions and lts one or two at a time first), but its all called tactics and strategy. In the last couple of missions I did, I took out same level (19 - con orange) clockwork bosses. I just keep slamming him with a dom/lev/mes series, repeated until either I start to run low on endurance or hit points. Then I kick in SS and run off to recover. Office type door missions help, since I can hit an elevator, go down a floor and rest. Go back and hit him again. Having a couple of heal and endurance inspirations help, but aren't required. If I'm lucky, the boss won't even get too much damage on me, and I can keep him reeling from the doms and levs. (I do like watching the clockwork bosses stand there and twitch from the dom/lev combo! 
Doc Hardy 19 Mind/Emp Controller, Triump
[ QUOTE ]
Gee... I dunno about the rest of you, but I don't have a lot of trouble soloing bosses with my lvl19 mind/emp controller.
[/ QUOTE ]
People here that have problems soloing are mostly talking about test. And when they are talking about soloing they are talking about the general missions you get from your contact not street sweeping. Street Sweeping is not soloing its an xp meat grinder with sound effects.
From my reading this topic has already been covered over 100 times. The less-than-huge changes in mobs that have been seen on test server don't really alter it much.
To summarize the best thoughts I have seen on it, and toss in some of my own:
1. "Every AT 'should' be able to solo" does NOT mean the same thing as "every AT can solo well and level efficiently".
-It is the same in many games, actually, almost every MPG I know. Classes have different flavours. If you want to play a controller or defender, you are TOLD you will have a hard time soloing and will PROBABLY feel the need to team.
2. "Every AT 'should' be able to solo" does NOT mean that every possible primary/secondary combo and set of power pool choices will allow you to solo effectively.
-If you MUST solo as a controller, pick Illusion. If you MUST solo as a defender, pick Rad as a secondary and grab some power pool attacks. My Grav/Rad CONTROLLER finished the Positron TF ALONE when his group gave up... the only thing that made this possible was that I had picked Air Superiority over Hover as my intro into Flying. It was a painful choice, but I knew I would need it some day and so I bit the bullet.
3. "Every AT 'should' be able to solo" does not mean that you can ignore learning how to team, or learning the best roles for your hero, or how to build your own team, or how and when to quit the team you are on because they just aren't working. Same learning applies to soloing. I have some PRETTY weak controllers out there who can still take on bosses etc... but they have to learn how to pull, use insps, separate the mobs, run away, hit and run, and use ALL powers in combo to take down the boss. But I can do it. It just isn't efficient... but it does require maximum skill in playing my char. Which brings up...
4. "Every AT 'should' be able to solo" does not mean it can be soloed with minimum skill or attention, or lack of patience, or not learning all the techniques you will need to do so. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and if the cat is bigger than you are... you better learn the BEST ways!
My thoughts: I started with a Spines/Regen scrapper BEFORE I ever saw these boards or FotM builds, because I could tell that it was a solo build just from the descriptions. If you want to learn a new game, pick a decent solo build to try it.
I then went straight to Grav/Rad controller, and Rad/Rad defender, and then Ill/Kin controller, because Cont/Def is a more 'natural' style to me. And I have soloed with each of them, but I am WAAYY faster in a good team. So I learned to be part of good teams.
To me, there is often an air of "I want to solo ANY BUILD I CHOOSE" to these "They are trying to force me to team" threads. Along with a dash of "But I don't want to choose non-optimal powers or slotting choices for my char to allow me to solo better".
A) Develop your team skills and devote some powers and slots to team-enhancing powers. Run around to areas and help people out. SHow them what you can do. Add good teamers to your Friends list and email them and seek them out. Make a supergroup of good people. Then you will find teaming is not so terrible.
B) Make the tough choices! If you love the idea of Mind Controller but it just doesn't work solo, DON'T cry that "the devs are trying to force me to team!". YOU chose Mind. Either pick up fighting power pools, or slot the one attack you do have and find a way to kill with it, or ask and learn and seek the techniques you need to hunt, or MAKE ANOTHER CHOICE. If the changes make solo a little harder, use your respec to make your hero a little togher!
C) MAKE AN ALT! Lots of people say "But this is my char and I choose to spend all my time on him!" Fine! Then make some of the above choices. But if one hero is fun, two heroes are funnerer! Make something different and whacky and play it when you absolutely can't move ahead on your un-soloable char, and keep an eye out for people and teams that your main CAN work with while you play it!
I could toss out a couple more sharp, witty, incredibly wise thoughts... but don't you just find that kinda crap boring anyway? 
Good journeys to you all...
Furyus (and 7 others) - 22 Spine/Regen Scrapper - VICTORY
Dr. Burns (and others) - 14 Fire/Rad Controller - CHAMPION
Too many alts to list
Every server but Pinnacle
Black Belt in Altoholism, Master of Indeterminancy
(although how it got in nancy I've no idea...)
Force did you read my original post?
Bosses. You know those things that your controller will run into every mission past level 10. Statesman said that you should usually bring help for those. Usually bring help for every mission past 10. Nope no trend toward grouping here just move along. He refers to soloing as street sweeping. I already posted my thoughts on street sweeping.
[ QUOTE ]
Torturing animals. Lack of remorse or guilt. Inability to see others as individuals vs objects to be manipulated. Learn what anti-social personality and behavior is... its not simply being non social.
Sorry you dont have any real friends to play with in real life, so are forced to make Cyprtic arrange a play date in make believe land.... Maybe they should just randomly assign us to a group when we log in...
[/ QUOTE ]
Your confusing sociopathic and psychotic behavior for anti-social behavior. They are not the same thing bub.
And I'm sorry that there is a few people who are so arragant to think they can convince me that they -arent- anti-social when they are making an assumption about over a thousand people they have never met.
Lets see...some of you cite your 4 or 5 "pickup teams" that were all disasters. Even if each of those groups were maxed with eight people, thats only about 40 people you've ever teamed up with for a time spanning less than an hour.
Take a look at the who list on a typical day for your server. There is A LOT of people playing CoH and your making a judgement about them all based off a limited experience to justify avoiding those other people.
And that is exactly what anti-social behavior is to begin with; making a pre-determined judgement that experiences with others will turn out poorly, therefore making attempts to avoid interacting with others, except the limited few you consider "safe".
[ QUOTE ]
Your confusing sociopathic and psychotic behavior for anti-social behavior. They are not the same thing bub.
[/ QUOTE ]
In common usage, they're not. Clinically, though, the term "antisocial personality disorder" is very similar to psychotic and sociopathic behavior.
The common use of "antisocial" to mean "shy" is probably closer to "social anxiety"...there were some other similar disorders, but I can't remember them at the moment.
this thread is absolutly the end all be all of ignorance and i want my bottle now refrences. grow up.
this isnt doom3 youre not running around on a one man rambo mission.
dear lord i feel sorry for whoever gets you a christmas present you dont like. sheesh. youll complain till the cows come home.
[ QUOTE ]
is just proof that you can't please everyone all of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why I said very few, not no one. There will always be people unhappy and complaining about something. I would say that anyone who feels that 100% of CoH should be soloable is being unreasonable and unrealistic.
[ QUOTE ]
The fact is, that's not even the case on Live.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's completely illrealiavent to this discussion, because this discussion is about possible changes to the way CoH is played.
[ QUOTE ]
YES it will be harder, to whatever extent, to fight bosses. But not impossible solo, just harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with harder, but possible. I don't think many reasonable people would either. There will of course be some who will, who will be upset that their group focused controller or defender won't be able to solo a boss, or at least won't be able to the same way they did. There will also be people who are upset that their blaster or scrapper won't be able to solo bosses as easily as they did before.
But you can't please all the people all the time.
However the point of this whole thread, was Statemans post that very easily could be read as saying that Bosses would no longer be something that could be defeated solo.
If that's not true, then great, I think that as long as they can be defeated solo, even if it doing so will be harder, then everything is fine.
Well said, but there will always be people who will read a post to have a specific meaning and insist that what they thing the author said and nothing else is what the author meant. Which is actually how the whole thread started.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
[ QUOTE ]
SHould you be able to solo everything. No. Get over it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Should you be able to solo nothing? No. Shut up.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
Not meaning to fuel any fires, this is just my take on the idea of a "hero".
A boss isn't an archvillain (Joker/Luthor/Magneto/et cetera).
Every hero in the comics can solo an archvillain and his attendants. This is usually a climactic battle which ends a storyline or special issue. It's tough but they do it.
Are our heroes truly "superheroes" or just guys in funny suits? Even at lower levels, fighting mobs of our own levels (+/- 2 or so), we should be able to use tactics and have a good chance to take out a Boss and his hangers-on.
This game -is- supposed to put us in the worlds of the comics, so I say let our characters be heroes and beat the bosses like baby seals. Yes, it should be a challenge. No, it shouldn't be impossible.
All the best...
Hey Cookie Monster, if "C" is for cookie, what is "N" for?
Golden Age & Early Silver Age Heroes (RPers) Wanted!
Batman PWND by The Insidious Termite!
The Internet
I am not saying that the current boss changes herald an era of non soloable missions. I am saying that I see a trend of changes that are encouraging teaming at the cost of soloability among the various ATs.
Or in other words. Slowly over time the changes that the devs are making are turning support ATs into support classes only with no option to solo. When this happens I expect to see a large bulk of people who are tired of playing a scrapper and play the game casually to find something else to do with there time.
This is what I think will happen. Give me a cookie if I am right and show the me the door while you are at it. Hopefully I will never be given a cookie but with the changes that are being made I am afraid its going to be a double fudge nut cookie in my stocking next year.
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing about how the game works is your choice. The only choice you have is "play or don't."
[/ QUOTE ]
I strongly dissagree. A game mmo lives because of the player base that pays to play. It should be the player base's desicion ( in general ) the way they wish the game would head. I mean, really, its money out of our pockets into theirs... Maybe I just like living in a democracy.. I dunno. I really dont have an opinion of the solo vs. group thing. I've never had a hard time finding a descent group or soloing save the lower levels.
[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying that the current boss changes herald an era of non soloable missions. I am saying that I see a trend of changes that are encouraging teaming at the cost of soloability among the various ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just did a fast search for Statesman's posts about "solo" and came up with this little gem:
[ QUOTE ]
originally posted by Statesman:
I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
All Archetypes CAN solo. Some do it slowly, some do it quickly. Some can solo most missions, some can solo fewer missions. And worse comes to worse - a hero can always hunt the streets and stop some crime there. That was always the intent of city zones.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree, and see the trend towards "encouraging" grouping. I'm a casual player, who gets a few hours a week to play, sometimes as little as 30 minutes between coming home from work, and leaving for night classes at the college. As such, I don't have the time needed to devote to a group. I like to be able to jump into a mission and clear it out, if possible, and fully expect to use more than a few Inspirations along the way.
If this change will be the point where mission bosses are going to be unsoloable by my Blaster, I am disappointed in the Developers as a whole, and Statesman in particular.
By his own words, he doesn't want "forced grouping," but by making the bosses unsoloable, I am forced to get a group together, let the mission languish unfinished in my mission list because I'm forced to street sweep, or go into XP debt trying to defeat the Boss. None of which are optimal, IMO, choices. If I want to finish this particular mission/storyarc, then I'm forced to group. *shrug* which just blew what States said out of the water. 
My post from another thread which has relevance here:
I've got a bad feeling about this.
As it stands now, I need to be able to solo my regular missions. 90% of the friends I started playing this game with moved onto WoW, thanks to a few idiots the SG I'm in collapsed, and the 10% of friends I have left play when I'm at work.
I'm already facing more missions than I'm comfortable with that I can't solo(two Archvillans in my held missions now, with the option to pick up a third if I want). For now, they have to sit unattended, as for the next three weeks I don't have the time to put together a pick up group and still run the mission...and just for the record, I've tried about once a day to send out broadcasts in Peregrine Isle, and usually after about an hour I get a team that's willing to go help me fight one of my Archvillans, but then we spend another 30 minutes of,"I need to sell first", "I've got to get the door, AFK"(to watch him autolog and then never come back), "Wait, THAT AV? Not a chance man, I'm out"(when the AV's name had been clearly stated in my broadcast), or the one that really gets to me,"Let's run one of the other missions first, to get a feel for each other so we don't have a wipe against the AV."(to which they would proceed to all vote to take on someone else's AV, and if I conceded, the team would finish mission one, actually be working together, then just as I select my mission, the person that held the mission said thanks and logged out, followed by half of the team following suit, and I end up feeling used like a two dollar [Censored]. If I did not concede, saying that the mobs leading up to the AV in my mission would give us enough time to learn to work together, half the team would call me a few choice names and bail on me.)
I accept that AVs and Monsters aren't going to be done solo. That's fine, it's end game content, it's epic level battles...I don't see the X-Men taking down Magneto or Apocalypse individually and winning, I don't see any of the Fantastic Four taking on Dr. Doom on their own and succeeding, and I don't see The Justice League or the Teen Titans winning too many battles unless they team. I can understand why you run into AVs with such regularity in your 40's...you're close to a legend at that point. You're known to every villian group out there, you've stopped most of them at every turn, and now the big guns are coming after you. Your exploits are in the paper, you are a known hero among the populace, and if they could accomodate it, you'd be receiving invites to speak at graduation ceremonies and sing national anthems to championship sporting events(where the enemies would be waiting in ambush, most likely). If they had the coding for it, you'd have a personal nemesis that constantly tries to kill you. You SHOULD be facing the best of the best as far as enemies go, and there I have no problems with AVs showing up with a decent frequency at this point.
However, I have 700 hours invested in my Empath. I've built and rebuilt him based on how I was going to be able to play, and now he's a decent soloer. Bosses can still give him a fit though, as no matter what I do, they still have the opportunity to land one shot about every 30 seconds or so. If his inspirations don't last long enough for him to finish off the boss, then he's going to take a nasty shot(Short Circuit can miss, after all, and when it does, he's in melee range, right next to a boss). Giving the boss another 50% health to deal with is bad enough for me...taking him half again as many insps as it was before...but when that occassional shot does go through, it takes over half of my empath's HP as is(even con boss, and the +1 bosses can take him to red), and adding another 50% to that? In a team, my versatility to jump into range to throw a Recovery Aura/Healing Aura on the frontline just dropped greatly, and I'm likely to get one shotted by that orange con boss now during solo play(some red con bosses can do it on live now, a Paragon Protector with Thunder Strike, for example).
I'd hate to think that 700 hours of my play time has just been rendered null and void, but it really is starting to look that way.
There are times when I wonder if Statesman has actually played through the game. I don't mean that he hasn't played the game. I know that he has. The last time he played he just made a level 30 character and popped on to test controllers. Starting out at high level is a bad way to test a game in my opinion. I am just really wondering what AT he has played if any to level 30. Then maybe he could use in game experience to explain some of the changes he is making instead of simply saying that the changes are going to help the game. If he is depending on QA to determine what changes are needed for the game then I think he needs his head examined. QA has let alot of bugs through on the test server recently. Before someone says that its the test server read what the test server is for in the test forum. It is not for players to find bugs. It is for opinions.
OT: is that Menchi in your avatar? looks like him, but can't be certain.
The thing I don't get is, and I may just be tired here and missing something, but you're having difficulties soloing AV's and that's the problem?
It just seems to me that really nobody is supposed to be able to solo them, but some min/maxers have been able to do it, and spread the word on how to do it, and particularly scrappers have been successful with it, and the rare controller, so now a lot of people just expect to be able to do it.
I just think if you're that frustrated for having to now fight AV's in some missions in your 40's, that you should just get teams together and beat them, and not worry about it.
My main is a sliver from 42 and so far I've had no problems, on the least populated server (Protector) getting people quickly to help me dispose of them.
I'm a blaster. I don't expect to be able to solo AV's. 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm already facing more missions than I'm comfortable with that I can't solo(two Archvillans in my held missions now, with the option to pick up a third if I want). For now, they have to sit unattended, as for the next three weeks I don't have the time to put together a pick up group and still run the mission...and just for the record, I've tried about once a day to send out broadcasts in Peregrine Isle, and usually after about an hour I get a team that's willing to go help me fight one of my Archvillans, but then we spend another 30 minutes of,"I need to sell first", "I've got to get the door, AFK"(to watch him autolog and then never come back), "Wait, THAT AV? Not a chance man, I'm out"(when the AV's name had been clearly stated in my broadcast), or the one that really gets to me,"Let's run one of the other missions first, to get a feel for each other so we don't have a wipe against the AV."(to which they would proceed to all vote to take on someone else's AV, and if I conceded, the team would finish mission one, actually be working together, then just as I select my mission, the person that held the mission said thanks and logged out, followed by half of the team following suit, and I end up feeling used like a two dollar prostitute. If I did not concede, saying that the mobs leading up to the AV in my mission would give us enough time to learn to work together, half the team would call me a few choice names and bail on me.)
[/ QUOTE ]
The story of pick up groups.
[ QUOTE ]
The thing I don't get is, and I may just be tired here and missing something, but you're having difficulties soloing AV's and that's the problem?
It just seems to me that really nobody is supposed to be able to solo them, but some min/maxers have been able to do it, and spread the word on how to do it, and particularly scrappers have been successful with it, and the rare controller, so now a lot of people just expect to be able to do it.
I just think if you're that frustrated for having to now fight AV's in some missions in your 40's, that you should just get teams together and beat them, and not worry about it.
My main is a sliver from 42 and so far I've had no problems, on the least populated server (Protector) getting people quickly to help me dispose of them.
I'm a blaster. I don't expect to be able to solo AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Players don't have a problem with AVs being unsoloable. I think soloists have a problem with getting so many missions from their personal contacts that require defeating AVs as part of the mission requirements. Players have a problem with unsoloable missions. It doesn't mean that AVs should be soloable. It means they shouldn't be part of the mission requirement if in the mission at all.
Players want the ability to solo all missions from personal contacts. Not all AVs.
I will not rest until we have in-game throwable pies!
[ QUOTE ]
EXACTLY. Bosses weren't meant to be solo-able UNLESS a particular player used Inspirations & strategy. Hence, the Help text & tutorial indicate that a player "probably" should get other friends to take out a boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except there is no way in hell you can take up an AV on your now. But i suppose that makes sense, when have you ever read about a cartoon hero who beat up anything other than lowlevel bums on the street. Oh wait...