there has been alot of talk of spawn or load killing in this thread, but here's what i know:
When you zone into a PVP zone, you have a count of 10 where you can't be hurt. That counter has never started until I was fully zoned and could move around.
Everyone in a PVP zone is artificially moved to the same lvl. Example: Bloody Bay, upon entering you become level 25. You have to be atleast level 15 to get in.
There are Arbitor Drones all over the Arachnos Base and Police Drones all around the Hero Base in Bloody Bay. Going AFK in this or any other PVP zone would eb a bad idea, but if you must, standing near one of these drones wouldn't be a bad idea.
You don't hear much about griefing nowadays because most recent games have built in features that prevent griefing. There are many little features built into CoH that we take for granted that older games didn't have and were exploited by griefers.
Some examples:
When two players attack the same mob, the xp is shared. This prevents kill-stealing.
When doing a trade, there is an accept button. This prevents scamming. You can also turn trades off to prevent window-spamming.
There's an ignore command. This prevents harassment.
When mobs return to their spawn location, they don't attack everyone on the way. This prevents train-killing.
When mobs drop enhancement and inspirations, it's assigned randomly rather than you having to loot the corpse. This prevents ninja-looting.
You click on doorways, rather than move through them. This prevents players from blocking the doorway.
PvP is restricted to specific zones. This prevents non-consentual PvP or player-killing.
Zoning into a PvP zone gives you a timed immunity. This prevents zone-killing.
The options to toggle whether you wish to consent to be teleported or rezzed prevents players from porting you into a bad spot.
In short, it's actually rather hard to grief people in CoH.
Id like to play Devils Advocate for a moment, and get some feedback. Why? Because I didnt buy CoV just so I could own another version of CoH, with a different spin on power sets and a face-lift on missions (Kidnap to target Rescue the Hostage / Rob the Bank Find the Glowie). I didnt buy it for PvP. I bought it because I wanted to play a villain, and frankly Im a little disappointed that the gameplay mimics CoH so closely I mean CMON, I cant even terrorize civilians? Geeesh.
Im not trying to bait anyone here Id really like to hear any observations (and critiques) on the following argument:
Thesis: The purpose of City of Villains was to provide a venue for gamers to play as villains. To that end, players might engage in behaviors described as griefing in other venues, including kill-stealing, insulting dialogue, ambushing and even mob-training (oh my!).
However, this thesis hinges on one caveat: that the goal driving these negative actions must be for personal gain, not the harassment of another player,
I will tackle the above actions point by point, with exceptions for when role-play turns into griefing.
Kill Stealing
One of the most well known and despised practices in CoH, particularly in the starting levels. Kill stealing is the act of jumping into someone elses battle, helping the other player, who has typically done most of the work already, to finish off the opponent for a few easy points of XP and maybe a drop.
While kill-stealing is one of the grayer areas of griefing, as it not so much hurts another player as it is annoying, kill-stealing is considered discourteous (and rightfully so) and frankly lazy play, capitalizing on the work of another.
While villainy can certainly be hard work, theres no premium on discourtesy for the dark-hearted, especially for experience or loot. Its frustrating to watch someone reap rewards from your hard work, but thats what villains do. Its even more frustrating to lose at the hands of another player in a PvP zone, but you accept those risks when you enter a zone. If you are playing a game called City of Villains, shouldnt you accept the fact that your fellow players might choose to play true to form?
EXCEPT: Kill-stealing only falls under role-play as long as the motive is personal gain. Earlier in this thread, several players described watching higher level players lure low-level mobs away from hunting grounds, for no other reason than to spite the lower level characters. No personal gain = griefing.
Dialogue
Whats the fun of being a villain if you cant banter or insult your nemesis? I address this because some players will likely take affront to being cursed or taunted by foes and immediately chalk it up to griefing, rather than role-play. The purpose of the dialogue is simply to act the character, not insult or intimidate other players.
EXCEPT: Its a game. Insults like Evil will always Triumph, because Good is Dumb (shout-out to Mel Brooks and SpaceBalls) is role-playing (albeit silly RP). God, you are so f-ing stupid, I cant believe you died is just harassment, and griefing. I suppose its like the quote Lord Recluse cited re: pornography Ill know it when I see it. Regardless of intent, if a player asks another gamer to stop insulting them, that gamer should cease, otherwise it moves from RP to griefing.
Ambushing and Even Mob Training (oh my!)
Ill use Sirens Call as an example here, because the zone mission Collect the meteor shard offers a definite personal gain for players, whether theyre a hero or a villain.
Earlier, Spinomania brought up the issue of being ambushed and defeated while weakened. This point was discussed ad infinitum, and I wont dwell on it myself. Suffice to say You enter the zone, you take your chances.
Say Im a villain. I found a meteor shard, but a couple of those pesky heroes are ahead of me. Fortunately, they attracted a mob of Shivan Behemoths, which are keeping them busy, but not for much longer. If they finish off the mob before I collect the shard, they can defeat me easily. So (being a Dominator?) I slap a hold on the both of them, and let the beasties make Shivan Strew out of them while I collect my meteor shard in peace, whistling a merry tune in counterpoint to their screams (errr
.. in character of course).
Is this griefing? I couldnt take them on by myself, and there was a definite motive for gain taking such action.
For another example, say Im in Warburg, playing a villain (or for that matter, a hero) with Gravity Control Wormhole. If Im suddenly ambushed by a group of multiple opponents, is it griefing or self-defense if I Wormhole the sorry lot into a crowd of crabby NPCs across the street?
EXCEPTION: And back again to the meteor-ridden fields of Sirens Call. Lets say Im still that sly Dominator, having collected all the meteor shards I need, and I suddenly (and unseen) come across a group of heroes in battle with a horde of Behemoths. If I slap a hold on them so they get slaughtered, theres no personal gain for me at all, either in XP or in shard collection and at this point its griefing, not role-play.
Whew- I got kinda long-winded on this one, hope I didnt bore too many of you. Again, Im not trying to bait anyone here, I just want feedback.
Thanks!
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When a player deliberately (and consistently) makes the game unfun for other players.
Usually this consists of things like:
Harrassment
Deliberately preventing others from completing missions/gaining xp
Finding ways to kill/injure non-PvP players (training high-level mobs onto low levels, etc.)
Using exploits in the game system (things that weren't intended) to kill/injure/harrass players
Deliberately preying on players in PvP who are hopelessly outclassed (spawn camping/sniping newbies, for example)
Broadcasting insults about x player, x hero, lamers, etc.
Generally griefing is pretty obvious -- you step into an area, BLAM! get wasted before you can do anything, and then get a tell about how you are lame and so-and-so is superior because he just worked you because you are lame -- well, that's griefing. It can be a little trickier than this but it's like what Justice Stewart said about pornography -- "...I know it when I see it."
One of the goals as a designer is to create systems to make it hard to do griefing -- without being overly restrictive. It's not easy.
It is important to remember that we, as players, are a community and the game is about community play, even if you do nothing but solo. Just doing what you want at the expense of the enjoyment of other players (not characters, but actual account-holding players) is not in the spirit of the game.
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Come on Zeb you knew somoen was gonn say this so without further Apu....
"Help me Statesman is greffing me on CoH, hes mad my playing not fun, a hassled, and fustrating. Cant you do anything about him?"
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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Come on Zeb you knew somoen was gonn say this so without further Apu....
"Help me Statesman is greffing me on CoH, hes mad my playing not fun, a hassled, and fustrating. Cant you do anything about him?"
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Neko, you have now become my favorite poster. Every time you put something up, I eagerly anticipate the wonder within, only to be surprised by something beyond my imagination.
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"Without further Apu"
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This needs to go in a museum to be preserved for antiquity.
I have been griefed in non-enforced ways on a number of occasions. Usually this is about someone lurking around and taking shots at my groups and then telling me to 'lighten up' after I politely ask them to stop after the 3rd time. I have considered broadcasting the player's Globalname, and explaining to the community at large about his unrepentant behavior, and letting them know that I will be Globally ignoring him and that like-minded people might do the same.
QUESTION: Would I be griefing HIM by doing this?
It seems a gray area. I would feel completely justified in doing it but I don't want to get GM reprisals for taking the 'law' into my own hands either. (Note that I do not tell anyone to ignore him...I just suggest that it might be a good thing to do
as a sort of exile for the unscrupulous.) If such a broadcast is not officially considered griefing, would my continued broadcast of the incident once a day in AP for a week be griefing? I have threatened a couple of really obnoxious people with this sort of exile and actually gotten an apology for their abuses. Apparently, the threat of ostracizing is powerful enough to curb a$$hole behavior. Go figure.
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...level 50 people ganking level 10's.
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I'm sure by now everyone has experienced the SK/EX mechanic in the PvP zones...This shouldn't be a problem.
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spawn camping
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Does this mean killing someone who has just rezzed?
If i defeat someone and they dont take a trip to the hospital and instead Rez on the spot, i am going to send them straight back into the dirt... is that spawn camping?
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Nope. Its far more insidious! Whacking a rezzing enemy is just good fun. If s/he didn't want to die again so quickly they oughtnt to have rezzed in the middle of combat. Camping is when you hang out at a known spawn site (like a hospital or an entrance) and, like hitting a row of ducks with a carnival BB gun, shooting every valid target that pops their head out of cover. Its about the lamest thing possible because it requires no strategy or tactical methodology. You shoot with your eyes closed and make a hit. Quite an accomplishment.
I propose special non-official taskforces of multiple teams that note the names of said campers and HUNT them down like dogs. Even an entire team of these types wouldn't be able to handle an SG-sized taskforce out to grind them to dust (without having to camp). Mmm...gankers iz tasty! 
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like prison style protection...because it IS...One more reason to have a formidable and active SG at your beck and call 
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You enter into an area that is labeled as Free For All. As in "You" can attack someone else at anytime given any situation. Those are the rules you are accepting upon entering that zone.
Being struck from behind with an Assassins strike, is neither griefing or cowardice. If I play a class called a Stalker, and my class plays out the best when I prey on the weak. It would prove advantageous for me to strike you when you are exhausted, or otherwise engaged. That's not anything other than smart tactics.
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Yup...War is hell, people. If you want it nice and fair when you enter a free for all zone you will be very disappointed. However, much like the Geneva conventions, there needs to be some limitations. Following through with the Convention simile, war is declared (entering a PvP zone), soldiers can move and attack other soldiers (heroes v. Villains or whatever), and the wounded are shuttled to safety (hospitals) unmolested. You don't attack the hospitals you attack soldiers in the field. Those who strike beyond those simple limitations should be treated as pariah, hunted down, and given savage justice. Booyah! 
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Carbon Devil, I understand that you want to play your stalker as it is intended to, but still, if I'm engaged with a NPC lieutenant and my HP is already at 25%, and then you strike me, I think it's coward from you.
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I think the problem here is perception. Spinomania (from the above quote) wants a duel in a war zone. That is what the arena is for...two sides ready and prepared for one another. Wars are no longer fought and won with everyone lining up and blasting each other. Its about tactics, strategy, applying strength where weakness is found. Read 'The Art of War' by Lau Tsu to see how its really done...it worked millennia ago...and it still applies today
even in a virtual environment.
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Hmmm, can video gamers rewrite the english language.
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Yes, we can. Languages are very fluid things. Just look up any word concerning the Internet in a dictionary. If you find it, my point is proved. The most ignorant-sounding misspelled word of one generation become accepted the next. Example: Thru <--- that would have gotten a markup 5 years ago in a 300 level English class and now it doesn't. Interstin' ain't it?
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No and here is why you are wrong, which can be ascertained from the definitions of both words, which are found in most common dictonaries.
Grief; noun.
1, deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. 2 a source of sorrow or anguish. 3 annoyance or frustration.
Notice no pural acknowledgement
Grieve; verb. grieved, grieving.
1 to cause sorrow: to distress. 2 to feel or express grief (Latin for gravdre, to burden)
Now number one in "grieve" sums it all up as to the action. But since it is a verb in order to convey it as an action, one must make it pural, hench it become grieving.
Now, if you can find the definition of the word "griefing" in the dictonary ( no such word exists) , sorry but you won't because it's the pural of grieve, as stating a "grieving" action and a feeling that was caused by it. See the pural of the word now, the action and the feeling caused by it?
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*beats INTRUDER over the head with the spine of 'The Big Book of Reality'*
Why don't you just become one of those miserable English teachers trying to cling to their generation's syntactic dogma as if it will outlive them. At least then I can openly despise you.
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Intruder, stop with the Websters and wake up...your "you misspelled the word therefore your definition is moot" argument is itself moot.
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I SO wish I could moot your mooting moot...But I have to agree...DAMN IT! 
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How would you know if the person is intentionally (if they don't admit they are) causing malice or not?
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Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern. That is my rule.
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If you choose to enter a PVP zone, you have no grounds for complaint when someone else PVP's you. REGARDLESS of the circumstances!
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Note to self: Some-bod-y needs an ars-woopin' to show the error of his reasoning. Not that I would, but If I show up with 30 SGmates and procede to knock your soloing hiney all over the zone until you log out...that is okay with you, Pax_arcana? I mean, you gave me permission when you entered the zone, right?
NO. That is not right. And if someone did that to you they need to be reported for griefing. Period.
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instead of asking no pvpers not to come, why don't they ask developpers to not put any PvE content in their precious zone ?
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I agree. I'm not big on PvP because it seems to bring out the worst in players and I play a community-based game to interact with the best of players. If zoning in to a PvP zone gives other players the chance to treat you like a rag doll, then PvE players shouldn't have to be subjected to the abuse. Make missions that are PvP an optional mission. (i.e., choose between a PvP and a PvE mission at contact.)
Da shizit:
fuzzy_chainsaw's Rules of engagement, Thread #3932038
Good lord, man. Yes. That is it...'nuf said!
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Read 'The Art of War' by Lau Tsu to see how its really done...
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Omega, you SERIOUSLY need to check your references before naming a book's author. The Art of War was, in actuality, written by Sun Tzu, NOT, as you ignorantly wrote above, 'Lau Tzu.' These are tzu very different people! ...I had to say it...
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If you choose to enter a PVP zone, you have no grounds for complaint when someone else PVP's you. REGARDLESS of the circumstances!
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Note to self: Some-bod-y needs an ars-woopin' to show the error of his reasoning. Not that I would, but If I show up with 30 SGmates and procede to knock your soloing hiney all over the zone until you log out...that is okay with you, Pax_arcana? I mean, you gave me permission when you entered the zone, right?
NO. That is not right. And if someone did that to you they need to be reported for griefing. Period.
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Wasn't too long ago, I was playing in Siren's Call, and a couple of Hero's started camping the hero's hospital. This would be the progression:
I die
I click go to the hosp
I rez in the hosp only to immeadiately get mezzed
I die again
Unfortunately I didn't have any breakfrees on me to help break this cycle of doom, but I had a buddy come in to give me a fighting chance at least.
To the person's credit, when i asked them to please stop in a tell they did. The did so very courteously (sp?) and was very kind about it. MY friend and I bailed on the zone and I told the person i'm looking forward to a rematch when I had more breakfrees. 
I did submit a petition, but more to request the perception be raised in the hosp zones so to prevent this from happening.
I even told CS that the person involved was very poliet and stopped when we requested it. If they hadn't..I wouldn't have and had pushed for it be straight greifing. Their willingness to stop and to do so kindly changed my mind.
Normally I'm not a big fan of PVP. From EQ and SWG where it was a "you sux, we r so UBER!" fest, I have to admit, COH/COV has a nice PVP enviroment. The community seems very civilized (but then again, maybe I haven't run across the "dregs" yet)
taking CD and Spiro's hypothetical PvP exchange as an example:
Spiro: I suppose a very NICE stalker, if he felt like it, might come up to you as you were fighting a mob, reveal his presence by attacking the mob and helping you finish it off, re-stealth, engage in a little trash-talking while stealthed as you rest up, and THEN have an epic super-battle with you, using every dirty trick in his book.
That would a really enjoyable engagement for both parties. You'd probably end up with a good story out of it, or even a long-running RP rivalry between the two of you.
But it won't ever happen.
In this scenario, you're asking your opponent to take on a LOT of risks. Lemme 'splain:
1.) He gives up his primary advantage. That being surprise. Not to mention the secondary tactical advantage of your low health from fighting the mob. And while you MIGHT be interested in "fair play", you might ALSO just freak out and start spamming AoEs in a panic to try and kill him as fast as possible. People do funny things in combat, which brings us to:
2.) Mutual lack of trust. He doesn't know what sort of person YOU are, and vicy versy.
While everyone likes to believe they're fair and just and nice, no-one has those kind of sureties about strangers. For all he knows, while you're sitting there exchanging witty remarks and powering up, you could be simeultaneously screaming for backup on SG chat. (and really, who could blame you? He might be doing the same thing!)
That would result in an extremely un-fun fight on the part of the person who doesn't ask for (or receive) backup, as an enraged super-team hunts him up and down the map.
Given these risks, I can't honestly blame anyone for taking the quick, dirty route to victory in a PvP setting. Even 'honorable' opponents will be quick to sieze on a weakness if they think their FOE is dishonorable, too.
Rule one of PvP: Play by your rules if you like.
Rule two of PvP: Do not expect others to play by your rules.
Rule three of PvP: No good deed goes unpunished: your opponents WILL sieze any opportunity you give them.
((Edited: Changed "stealth" to "surprise' for clarity.))
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I have been griefed in non-enforced ways on a number of occasions. Usually this is about someone lurking around and taking shots at my groups and then telling me to 'lighten up' after I politely ask them to stop after the 3rd time. I have considered broadcasting the player's Globalname, and explaining to the community at large about his unrepentant behavior, and letting them know that I will be Globally ignoring him and that like-minded people might do the same.
QUESTION: Would I be griefing HIM by doing this?
[/ QUOTE ]
Any shmoe who wants to make trouble for someone could make up a sob story about being griefed, in order to grief someone by convicting them in the court of public opinion, irregardless of whether or not he/she actually did anything. That's the problem with these player-sponsored "ban lists"... they're not all that reliable.
TargetLad!
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You enter into an area that is labeled as Free For All. As in "You" can attack someone else at anytime given any situation. Those are the rules you are accepting upon entering that zone.
Being struck from behind with an Assassins strike, is neither griefing or cowardice. If I play a class called a Stalker, and my class plays out the best when I prey on the weak. It would prove advantageous for me to strike you when you are exhausted, or otherwise engaged. That's not anything other than smart tactics.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup...War is hell, people. If you want it nice and fair when you enter a free for all zone you will be very disappointed. However, much like the Geneva conventions, there needs to be some limitations. Following through with the Convention simile, war is declared (entering a PvP zone), soldiers can move and attack other soldiers (heroes v. Villains or whatever), and the wounded are shuttled to safety (hospitals) unmolested. You don't attack the hospitals you attack soldiers in the field. Those who strike beyond those simple limitations should be treated as pariah, hunted down, and given savage justice. Booyah!
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/agree
We have things like the Articles of War and the Geneva Convention for a reason- and people who commit war crimes have a nasty tendancy to get caught (eventually). Both the Germans and Japanese found that out the hard way after WWII, along with a certain former Arab dictator we all know.
One reaps what one sows, after all.
TargetLad!
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I have been griefed in non-enforced ways on a number of occasions. Usually this is about someone lurking around and taking shots at my groups and then telling me to 'lighten up' after I politely ask them to stop after the 3rd time. I have considered broadcasting the player's Globalname, and explaining to the community at large about his unrepentant behavior, and letting them know that I will be Globally ignoring him and that like-minded people might do the same.
QUESTION: Would I be griefing HIM by doing this?
[/ QUOTE ]
Any shmoe who wants to make trouble for someone could make up a sob story about being griefed, in order to grief someone by convicting them in the court of public opinion, irregardless of whether or not he/she actually did anything. That's the problem with these player-sponsored "ban lists"... they're not all that reliable.
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Agreed. I can see how this could really be abused. My own experience with this occurred over a 30 minute period of time on broadcast with numerous people throwing their two cents in. He unrepentantly admitted to the acts and began to call me names for 'whining about it.' There were two camps, much like on the forum, with the 'get over it' side and the 'The guy is a jerk' side. (I presume a third side put the griefer and myself on ignore for spamming the channel with our argument.) Because of the very verbal admission on the griefer's part there was no question as to whether my claims were on the up-and-up.
[quote[ QUOTE ]
No and here is why you are wrong, which can be ascertained from the definitions of both words, which are found in most common dictonaries.
Grief; noun.
1, deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. 2 a source of sorrow or anguish. 3 annoyance or frustration.
Notice no pural acknowledgement
Grieve; verb. grieved, grieving.
1 to cause sorrow: to distress. 2 to feel or express grief (Latin for gravdre, to burden)
Now number one in "grieve" sums it all up as to the action. But since it is a verb in order to convey it as an action, one must make it pural, hench it become grieving.
Now, if you can find the definition of the word "griefing" in the dictonary ( no such word exists) , sorry but you won't because it's the pural of grieve, as stating a "grieving" action and a feeling that was caused by it. See the pural of the word now, the action and the feeling caused by it?
[/ QUOTE ]
*beats INTRUDER over the head with the spine of 'The Big Book of Reality'*
Why don't you just become one of those miserable English teachers trying to cling to their generation's syntactic dogma as if it will outlive them. At least then I can openly despise you.
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Im an English teacher. Im only slightly miserable at present because facemaker ran away from me. But I have to agree with you. Intruders grasp of english is appalling.
Whats with the 'plural' stuff, Intruder? Plurals are the multiple forms of nouns. They have nothing to do with verbs mate. Turning 'grieve' into 'grieving' is putting it into the continuous form, not pluralising it. And the 'to cause sorrow or distress;to harm' definition of 'to grieve' is, in my dictionary and on dictionary.com, classed as 'archaic'. I have never heard anyone, ever, in my thirty five years of life, use 'to grieve' in that archaic sense, but I have frequently heard and used 'to grief' in the meaning that is well-known and used amongst gamers.
Here endeth (that's archaic too) the lesson.
Eco.
EDIT; for sp.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I didnt see this noted in any of the above posts, but I only skimmed through them.
Entrance camping shouldnt be a problem. In beta there was a 25 second immunity granted upon entering a pvp zone.
Drones should not give debt. It leads to griefing and will end up ruining alot of people's pvp experience, hurting the pvp overall.
Trash talking...well thats gonna happen and people should be prepared for it if they plan to PvP. If you dont like it ignore them. Thats what /ignore is for.
Griefing will happen, but as long as Cryptic fixes known exploits and bugs quickly and actively pursues serial griefers, it should tone down the amount of griefing.