[ QUOTE ]
Players have common sense and chose to attack weakened players (would they even bother hitting a NPC enemy if his health was down to 5% ? no, because there is no xp for this)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, actually, yes they would - because that weakened enemy still counts as a "kill" for badges, and is still work SOME xp - even if it's only 1xp, hey ... 1 xp for one attack ...? *shrug* if I'm wandering pat the lame-duck NPC anyway, why not?
[ QUOTE ]
2. PvPers don't want other players in "their" zones.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. Dead, absolute, utter, stupidly wrong.
Noone wants to see whiners in any zone. And if you [censored] about being righteously dropped by a PC from "the other side", IN A PVP ZONE, then whining is precisely what you're doing.
Don't like the risk that comes from being in a PVP zone? Don't go.
Just. That. Simple.
I will play a villain as villainous as possible.
According to that definition we aren't really villains.
It sounds exactly like coh. No room to be villainous.
I fully intend to stop anyone from doing anything in the pvp zones. Except deal with me!
It is my goal to harass every toon that comes within eyesight.
I RP a maniacal serial killer. What do ya want.
Just ban me now if I can't really be evil.
Save us both some money.
[ QUOTE ]
I will play a villain as villainous as possible.
According to that definition we aren't really villains.
It sounds exactly like coh. No room to be villainous.
I fully intend to stop anyone from doing anything in the pvp zones. Except deal with me!
It is my goal to harass every toon that comes within eyesight.
I RP a maniacal serial killer. What do ya want.
Just ban me now if I can't really be evil.
Save us both some money.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOOOOOOL
Tell me in the history of crime, at least a name of serial killer who killed anything else than helpless people.
If you RP a serial killer, stay in, a lowbie zone and kill helpless citizen.
A serial killer don't seek risk.
Fuzzy Chainsaw, your last post in the most wel thought I've seen in this thread.
Thank you for putting the effort to give so detailed point of view.
There is syill one flaw imho: when you talk about reward of defeating a human player, I wholly agree with you BUT I still don't see the reward in defeating an ALMOST DEAD human player. The players who are happy with this kind of reward look for the same challenge than those who only fight grey mobs.
I will go in PvP zone because I am not against it, don't get me wrong.
I know a portion of PvP players will be [censored], end of story.
[ QUOTE ]
...your just another body to kill...
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! That right there! That is not PvP. That is sadism.
Your opponents are people. They have as much right to enjoy the game as you do. Players and NPCs are not the same.
I don't know about you personally, Maximum_charge, but lots of PvP fanatics will say they love PvP because "fighting NPC AIs is boring and predictable", and then will turn around and say something very similar to what I quoted above. Those kind of players almost always turn into griefers.
The first time a Stalker jumps a player it is not griefing. If that Stalker pursues that same player every time they enter the zone, repeatedly killing them just because they can, thus making it impossible for the player to complete their mission, get that badge, or even just spend time leveling on PvP zone NPC enemies, then it has become something else entirely.
That's when I call it griefing.
================================================== ===
AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
================================================== ===
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lord_Recluse
... its spelled Grieving not Griefing.
Try a college type dictonary and you will see there is grief without a plural and grieve with the plurals of grieved and grieving. Grief and grieve are basically the same definition but one was meant to be used in the plural and the other not.
[/ QUOTE ]
"grieve" means to feel grief. Not the same thing as the topic under discussion. "Grieve" is what the victims do when someone gives them "grief". The person giving them grief is a "griefer", a colloquialism. From "griefer" people have quite naturally derived "griefing" to express the acts or actions related to causing another player to grieve.
Time to buy a better dictionary, maybe. ;-)
[/ QUOTE ]
No and here is why you are wrong,...
[/ QUOTE ]
You can quote dictionaries all day long and it won't change common usage. Go back and reread the preface to your dictionary. Somewhere in there will be a clause about the dictionary presenting one possible set of definitions which may or may not reflect the reality of daily usage.
Sorry, daily usage > dictionary definition
Every responsible lexicographer knows this. 
- Um, yes, sad though it may be, writing dictionaries is one of the things I do for a living. 
Well, not "writing", actually, but proofing. -
================================================== ===
AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
================================================== ===
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...your just another body to kill...
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! That right there! That is not PvP. That is sadism.
Your opponents are people. They have as much right to enjoy the game as you do. Players and NPCs are not the same.
I don't know about you personally, Maximum_charge, but lots of PvP fanatics will say they love PvP because "fighting NPC AIs is boring and predictable", and then will turn around and say something very similar to what I quoted above. Those kind of players almost always turn into griefers.
The first time a Stalker jumps a player it is not griefing. If that Stalker pursues that same player every time they enter the zone, repeatedly killing them just because they can, thus making it impossible for the player to complete their mission, get that badge, or even just spend time leveling on PvP zone NPC enemies, then it has become something else entirely.
That's when I call it griefing.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I think we have diffrent views of things, but if you enter a pvp zone, yes you are most definatly another body to kill, youd just better fight back.
As for me, I fully plan to enjoy the zones with my hero and villian to its fullest with my main hero and main villian. The heroe is going to be there to do his best to learn about the shivan, the meteors and what not, defending himself from villians or coming to other heroes aid, and he will talk to villains. The villain however, would like nothing more then to grab ahold of a hero by his ankle, and grab his neck with the other, and see which joint breaks off first, while rather evily telling the victim how random it can be, and he will be sure to let his friends know how they compare to his breaking.
Its gonna be a blast.
Okay here is a suggestion to negate one of the types of griefing.
If a player takes 99% of a player's life by their powers then the person gets killed by a npc no debt is awarded since a player did the vast majority of the damage.
For players killing a player damaged mostly by npcs the player doesn't get any debt since a npc didn't do most of the damage nor do the killing blow.
As for drones make the drones just teleport them to the hospital and make the player unable to get to the hero or villian base for ten minutes in which they got zapped by a drone. Make them be yanked by the emergency teleport system as a preventive measure or add a field preventing teleports from taking place in the bases so villians or heroes cannot port in. This of course would negate teleport foe and recall friend.
[ QUOTE ]
Tell me in the history of crime, at least a name of serial killer who killed anything else than helpless people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stalin. Hitler. Vlad Tepes.
You don't have to be a psychopathic whackjob serial killer lurking in an alleyway, to be a psychopathic whackjob serial killer. The alleyway is entirely optional.
It all boils down to this: CAVEAT EMPTOR. Also stated as "you pays your money and you takes your chances." In other words, by entering a PVP zone, you assume the risk of being ganked at the LEAST (for you) opportune moment!
That's the way the PVP zones WORK. Be glad it's guaranteed that EVERY other player-controlled entity in the zone will be EXACTLY the same level as you are (due to the forcible sidekick/exemplar mechanic).
Some stalker named "733+ N1Nj4 d00d" ganks you when you're low on health? Buy up lots of inspirations to give yourself some +perception, fly back out there, FIND him if you can, and kill the low-down rat bastid back. It's a PVP zone, that's just the name of the game.
If you can't stand the heat - stay the heck outta the kitchen.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So your saying that i find a hero doing his working cleaning the crime element but I a stalker want to kill him since his a enemy... and if I do kill him as I should( a nija to put it in my favorite subject) Im a griefer for killing knowing that Im weak and my job for God's sake is to stalk and assasinate ( please people they what the word assasin stalker means) Im still a griefer... I think if you want know griefing just go have a nice session on Lineage2 and then talk me about real griefing... besides there's a warning sign saying your entering a pvp zone.../sarcasm I think it means go in have a nice cup of coffee with the next brute that was going to hit me before I offer him coffee...or just invite the stalker to play hide and blast!!... no,no pvp zone means partial vicinity for parties?/sarcasm off: you were change that attitude of mano a mano fights beacuse if i remember Dr.octopus doesn't wait for spider-man to get ready to fight...
[/ QUOTE ]
Next time you will be trying to get meteorite samples and your HP will be at 10% because the Shivans won't let you do, I'll be there to give you the final strike.
If PvP means acting like morons, I guess I can do that to meet your standarts.
[/ QUOTE ]Sure I won't have it against ya since I gave permission to attack me when I enter this pvp zone,sure I'll get mad a little I was working hard but as I learned in socom 3 never let your guard down if not your going to get shot on your back... but anyways I'll be looking foward for that attack from ya purple sentinel.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tell me in the history of crime, at least a name of serial killer who killed anything else than helpless people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stalin. Hitler. Vlad Tepes.
You don't have to be a psychopathic whackjob serial killer lurking in an alleyway, to be a psychopathic whackjob serial killer. The alleyway is entirely optional.
It all boils down to this: CAVEAT EMPTOR. Also stated as "you pays your money and you takes your chances." In other words, by entering a PVP zone, you assume the risk of being ganked at the LEAST (for you) opportune moment!
That's the way the PVP zones WORK. Be glad it's guaranteed that EVERY other player-controlled entity in the zone will be EXACTLY the same level as you are (due to the forcible sidekick/exemplar mechanic).
Some stalker named "733+ N1Nj4 d00d" ganks you when you're low on health? Buy up lots of inspirations to give yourself some +perception, fly back out there, FIND him if you can, and kill the low-down rat bastid back. It's a PVP zone, that's just the name of the game.
If you can't stand the heat - stay the heck outta the kitchen.
[/ QUOTE ]
I ask for serial killers names and I get Dictators names ?
Can't you do better.
It all comes down to this: hardcore PvPers like the easy preys and the not challenging game.
One shoting an almost dead character is no PvP, it lacks the "versus" part.
[ QUOTE ]
Most poster in the thread would have not problem if I took a bunch of Controllerd or Corruptors and sat around chain holding any villain or hero that happened by until they log, since there only a few ways to avoid this. Of course, hold them some more if they log in. They could call in their friends/SG for help. If they are a lone wolf they might as well log onto another character for awhile.
Is this greifing? If it is how can they prevent it other than banning players for using their powers?
Remember Rez and teleport were changed to these power being abused.
I am sure that circumstances like this are going to happen in a PvP enviroment.
I think the concern is that there was a very limit amount of time to test pvp, there are a ton of issues that need to be addressed, not just the one above. Areas were player can blast and not be targeted from, WoW was still fixing some of these areas 6 months after that game released.
I don't dislike playing PvP. COH is trying a good attempt at a fair system. It will be interesting to see how fast nerf happen when someone figures a good set of powers. It will interesting to see the x is killing y screams. The stalker is already being set-up as the pvp please nerf me poster child.
I hate greifers.
[/ QUOTE ]As you described holding the opponent the whole time even if theylog out and in... yes now thats griefing since you completly abusing the use of your role to halt completly his fun is griefing as well to use your stalker to stealth kill that same player over and when he obviuosly didn't attack anyone( this one could be the hardest since we are consenting to be attacked) or simply insult ya for no reason( suggested to report him so he doesn't cause anymore problems).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tell me in the history of crime, at least a name of serial killer who killed anything else than helpless people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stalin. Hitler. Vlad Tepes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I ask for serial killers names and I get Dictators names ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well then, define serial killer.
[ QUOTE ]
Can't you do better.
[/ QUOTE ]
There're more deaths attributed to any ONE of them, than to every madman locked up in prison for being a "serial killer", throughout the last century.
[ QUOTE ]
It all comes down to this: hardcore PvPers like the easy preys and the not challenging game.
One shoting an almost dead character is no PvP, it lacks the "versus" part.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then don't be easy prey. Either be a hard target, or, stay out of the PVP zones.
Precisely what the hell is your major malfunction, anyway? PVP Zone. It is not neccessary for anyone to enter such a zone to do ANYthing non-PVP, at all, period, full friggin' stop.
If you go into a PVP zone, expect to be PVP'ed.
As for our "lacks the versus" comment ... "versus" bears no obligation that it be a fair, stand-up fight. You want those, stick to the Arena. It boils down to one simple thing: iffen ya don' LIKE what's in da PVP zones, den, don' be in 'em yerself, dummy!
[ QUOTE ]
Stalin. Hitler. Vlad Tepes.
[/ QUOTE ]
He ask for serial killers, not for a leader's name of massive human army.
But anyway, im for open PvP area.
Purple : u're fighting an ennemy in a PvP zone, u're gona kill him ? did u stop to fight when is near to die ? cause u dont kill low-life players ???? no.
So, i agree with players who are "killing" (it's ONLY a game) every ennemis they'll find in a PvP area.
But i think u are not familiar with PvP purple.
U'll find a ennemy with no life
He'll face U
He'll Mezzzzz U
Then he's gona use 2 inspirations of Life, 2 inspirations of Endurance
Then his friend Stalker will assassinate U
Then they'll kill U lol
If u go in a PvP Area to do PvE it's your OWN choice to do that Alone. If u are killed while a PvE Fight, it's Your Choice to engage a fight with Mobs and not finding a vilain. So if u fight and u are in a weak position, dont be surprise if someone come to kill U.
Usually all my characters are soo weak, i can kill nobody in a usual and fair fight, so i need to find a weak ennemy to play 
If i go in a PvP area, i kill every foes i'll find, grey or not, low life or not... perhaps i'll loose some fights, but... im here to... PLAY !
Dev are doing a game with 2 sides : Good and Evil, i understand that a Good side Player dont kill low life Evil Ennemy, but in this case dont complain if the Evil Side allways win 
Im gona play a Good side Hero and kill every Low-Life Evil side Player i'll find lol
[ QUOTE ]
It all comes down to this: hardcore PvPers like the easy preys and the not challenging game.
[/ QUOTE ]
....buh? o.O
um... I thought the appeal was the opportunity to face difficult, thinking opponents instead of static AI. At least, that's me. Easy prey = boring.
PvPer's and gankers aren't the same.
Please understand this and do not make such incorrect generalizations about those who love PVP. Thank you.
P.S.- Just a random thought, I enjoyed playing Zerg in Starcraft, but HATED rushing anyone. 
[ QUOTE ]
I think you'r missing Purples point, unless I am in which case this will be my point.
In the PVP Zone, if you are killed by a player you acrue no debt, and if you kill a player you gain no exp.
There are PVE enemies in the zone, killing them awards one exp and dying at their hand awards one debt.
If someone is there to PVP their goal should be to kill another player character, thus achieving the much saught after gloating rights.
It is unfortunately possible for someone to do several things which are not what it seems the devs intended, namely:
1. TPing almost dead PC's into the waiting arms of NPC's causing them to die at the NPC's hands and not theirs thus accruing debt for said PC.
2. TPing and PC into the waiting arms of a police drone or arachnos drone causing them to be one-shot killed with no chance of retaliating or knowing who got them (I understand sometimes you don't know anyway but theres a chance you might) once again accruing debt.
3. Waiting until someone is fighting an NPC, hitting them so their almost dead and NOT finishing them off YOURSELF, but letting the NPC finish them so they accrue debt.
I see deliberately causing a character to accfrue debt in a system designed so that PVP does not cause debt as griefing. Doing the above three things in a pvp zone is the same as dropping a teammate off a building into a mob using TP friend in a non PVP zone.
My solution? Make TP Foe not work on PC's using the ingame explanatoin that the teleport devices we wear to send us to and from hospitals cancel out unwanted TP. After all we have to click allow it for friendlies now.
This doesn't cancel out the thrid form of griefing but nothing will.
I also don't think anything that can kill you in one shot (Police Drone) and can't be killed itself should give you debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the most valid point in the PvP game. Debt exists in the zone. Winning PvP is more than just ganking and exploiting. Mr Dominator locks you down and his stalker teammate one shots you; great job! That's true PvP! Now Mr. Dominator Locks you down and they TP you to a bunch of mobs or a drone- Pop! Debt, that's greifing.
****
What they need to add is supression of XP debt when you are attacked by another player a 30 seconds status effect [PvP Enagement] should be applied, it's enough time becuase you can run and lose aggro or take the hospital trip
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
BTW from Cuppajo on "Mr. Dominator Locks you down and they TP you to a bunch of mobs or a drone- Pop! Debt, that's greifing."
"I'll pass it on. That player should be reported and banned. "
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a player deliberately (and consistently) makes the game unfun for other players.
Usually this consists of things like:
Harrassment
Deliberately preventing others from completing missions/gaining xp
Finding ways to kill/injure non-PvP players (training high-level mobs onto low levels, etc.)
Using exploits in the game system (things that weren't intended) to kill/injure/harrass players
Deliberately preying on players in PvP who are hopelessly outclassed (spawn camping/sniping newbies, for example)
Broadcasting insults about x player, x hero, lamers, etc.
Generally griefing is pretty obvious -- you step into an area, BLAM! get wasted before you can do anything, and then get a tell about how you are lame and so-and-so is superior because he just worked you because you are lame -- well, that's griefing. It can be a little trickier than this but it's like what Justice Stewart said about pornography -- "...I know it when I see it."
One of the goals as a designer is to create systems to make it hard to do griefing -- without being overly restrictive. It's not easy.
It is important to remember that we, as players, are a community and the game is about community play, even if you do nothing but solo. Just doing what you want at the expense of the enjoyment of other players (not characters, but actual account-holding players) is not in the spirit of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh please say it ain't so... I am gathering from your response that you are considering allowing Villains to communicate with Heroes (and vice versa) in local and area channels. Please note, that many of the types of griefing you mentioned can't be pulled off without negative communication.
Or were you referring to other MMOs....
Camdar
[/ QUOTE ]
You were probably awaiting my dissenting vote here, camdar, didn't want to keep you waiting.
The game NEEDS the banter between opponents to be anything more than a slugfest. I'll /ignore them if I need to.
Also, for dragonhunter's sake, I hilighted the part that counters his opinion. If I re-enter the PvP zone after you maul me, and you're waiting for me, and maul me again, and again... you're breaking the line between constructive gameplay and griefing. Camping "spawn sites" is the same as camping the entrance- it's effectively a spawn into the PvP realm
[/ QUOTE ]
Camping an entrance is not spawn-camping. However, given the differences in computers and internet connections, I sincerely hope the entrances are developed well enough that no one can kill you before you can react. An example being the guard drones used at the mono-rails and hazard zone entrances already. Put in the fence and the drones (ostensibly to keep the villains from reaching the non-PvP heroic lands), and let that be that.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It all comes down to this: hardcore PvPers like the easy preys and the not challenging game.
[/ QUOTE ]
....buh? o.O
um... I thought the appeal was the opportunity to face difficult, thinking opponents instead of static AI. At least, that's me. Easy prey = boring.
PvPer's and gankers aren't the same.
Please understand this and do not make such incorrect generalizations about those who love PVP. Thank you.
P.S.- Just a random thought, I enjoyed playing Zerg in Starcraft, but HATED rushing anyone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you for this precision.
I appreciate this valuable input.
My point was most of the posters who argued with me seemed to defend the fact that one shoting a hero( or villain depending your side) who was already almost dead was fun, just because it's PvP and they could do it.
Your opinion is a relief to me, and I finaly see that some PvPers are not griefers.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It all comes down to this: hardcore PvPers like the easy preys and the not challenging game.
[/ QUOTE ]
....buh? o.O
um... I thought the appeal was the opportunity to face difficult, thinking opponents instead of static AI. At least, that's me. Easy prey = boring.
PvPer's and gankers aren't the same.
Please understand this and do not make such incorrect generalizations about those who love PVP. Thank you.
P.S.- Just a random thought, I enjoyed playing Zerg in Starcraft, but HATED rushing anyone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you for this precision.
I appreciate this valuable input.
My point was most of the posters who argued with me seemed to defend the fact that one shoting a hero( or villain depending your side) who was already almost dead was fun, just because it's PvP and they could do it.
Your opinion is a relief to me, and I finaly see that some PvPers are not griefers.
[/ QUOTE ]now your being really rude .. I found that an insult, just beacuse I came from a game that getting ganked a few times is normal... that doesn't mean I am a griefer,okay?
by the way I do not point out that one shotting is not cool and all but if that is the stalkers only chance of survival he should use since if he fights in a "fair" fight he will get creamed with no question asked.. just like me.. and I find that appealling since it takes guts and intelligence to use this evil AT ( not saying that people are dumb but i met my share of them).
[ QUOTE ]
Generally griefing is pretty obvious -- you step into an area, BLAM! get wasted before you can do anything, and then get a tell about how you are lame and so-and-so is superior because he just worked you because you are lame -- well, that's griefing. It can be a little trickier than this but it's like what Justice Stewart said about pornography -- "...I know it when I see it."
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Lord Recluse's definition of griefing. Personally, I've only really witnessed people training monsters into areas where the aftermath is a mass of dead bodies on the ground. Pretty obvious griefing. Anything beyond that has been watching people deliberately being offensive on broadcast or in tell and there's a simple solution to that: /ignore <playername>
As for the concern that heroes and villains communicating on broadcast will be considered 'griefing' with all the threats going back and forth, etc ... it falls back into that category of "you'll know it when you see it". Honestly, it isn't really that hard to recognize roleplayed banter vs. absolute obnoxious behaviour.
As a matter of note, I think that there are some people who take the game entirely too personally, and that is just as much cause for trouble as griefing. I've seen people having discussions or even just asking questions on broadcast, and veteran players calling them names, swearing, yelling for them to shut up and leave them in peace. (I say veteran players simply because I've seen their names in the game for as long as i've been playing). Sometimes, I find these players more offensive that the new players and their billion and one questions. If the people on broadcast are really messing with your desire to have fun then change tabs so you don't see the broadcast blather.
[ QUOTE ]
My point was most of the posters who argued with me seemed to defend the fact that one shoting a hero( or villain depending your side) who was already almost dead was fun, just because it's PvP and they could do it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I for one never said it would be fun, simply that it is not griefing. Especially if it only happens to you once, at the hands of any particular character (from what I understand, Cryptic generally holds that griefing usually involves repeatedly doing something objectionable - as in, "at least twice").
If I'm playing a villain, I'm in a PVP zone, and I see a hero low on health, while IU'm in good condition still? You bet I'll take him down - at the drop of a hat! It's my character's JOB in that zone. One or another character I make might have a personal code of honor that says differently, but by and large .... prey is prey, easy or otherwise.
Now, regardless of what I'm playing, I won't go seeking out such targets - but I won't pass them by either. Take Siren's Call; dropping you might just make that hotspot over there more likely to fall to Arachnos' forces .... not dropping you might have the opposite effect. No matter what your HP and END bar look like (at worst, you would only be 2-3 blue and 2-3 green Inspirations from "what, me? hurt? HA!!").
In any event, it is not griefing JUST because your HP weren't at full. Frankly,it's no more griefing then, than if we're in an ARENA event, Free-for-All, and I wander along and find you .... with low HP/END, because you just fought off someone else.
The PVP zones are esentially giant, objective-laden, PvE-hazard-filled ARENAS. ANYthing that moves in there, and isn't on your team , is a legitimate target .... regardless of what it's status might (or might not) be.
You, however, are seeking to polarise this issue - either we have to agree with you that you shouldn't be attacked at low HP, OR, we're just lowlifes who're only out for easy prey.
Middle ground, Purple. Middle. Ground.
I won't be out for easy prey (just "doable" prey - stuff I think I have a decent chance of defeating). Yet, I won't consider it wrong to nail someone who is low on HP.
Yes, EVEN IF THE "SOMEONE" GETTING NAILED IS ME ...!! It's a risk undertaken, willingly, when one enters the PVP zone at all. "You pays your money, and you takes your chances."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lord_Recluse
... its spelled Grieving not Griefing.
Try a college type dictonary and you will see there is grief without a plural and grieve with the plurals of grieved and grieving. Grief and grieve are basically the same definition but one was meant to be used in the plural and the other not.
[/ QUOTE ]
"grieve" means to feel grief. Not the same thing as the topic under discussion. "Grieve" is what the victims do when someone gives them "grief". The person giving them grief is a "griefer", a colloquialism. From "griefer" people have quite naturally derived "griefing" to express the acts or actions related to causing another player to grieve.
Time to buy a better dictionary, maybe. ;-)
[/ QUOTE ]
No and here is why you are wrong,...
[/ QUOTE ]
You can quote dictionaries all day long and it won't change common usage. Go back and reread the preface to your dictionary. Somewhere in there will be a clause about the dictionary presenting one possible set of definitions which may or may not reflect the reality of daily usage.
Sorry, daily usage > dictionary definition
Every responsible lexicographer knows this.
- Um, yes, sad though it may be, writing dictionaries is one of the things I do for a living. Well, not "writing", actually, but proofing. -
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting comeback and common place, since if you can't spell or use the word correctly. Then it is understandable as to why the action happens as in illiterates know no better.
IE you can spell sucks as sux and you can spell be right back as brb. But your texting shortcuts aren't within our real world's english vocabulary.
Point being you can misconstrue and miss use words and those that do don't really understand any wrong or harm being done because they have misinterpreted thier actions.
This is why as children we are taught morals and values and an understanding of words and meanings within the english vocabulary.
Understand yet? if you don't use words properly then you have no clue as to what you are doing.
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<snip>you can misconstrue and miss use words</snip>
<snip>Understand yet? if you don't use words properly then you have no clue as to what you are doing.</snip>
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Uhh... did you mean "misuse"? Yeah, I get your point exactly.
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I think this will be my last post in this thread.
I've learned two things here:
1. The risk vs reward as no value for PvPers if they insist on hitting the weakened enemies.
And don't give me the council in striga crap, they are AI and they are coded to attack.
Players have common sense and chose to attack weakened players (would they even bother hitting a NPC enemy if his health was down to 5% ? no, because there is no xp for this)
2. PvPers don't want other players in "their" zones. So, instead of asking no pvpers not to come, why don't they ask developpers to not put any PvE content in their precious zone ?
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Maybe a better lesson is in PvP as a whole, instead of neatly defined conflicts.
Lesson 1. PvP is usually quick and messy. PvP conflicts are usually over in a fraction fo the time of a PvE conflict, and often begin and end with little warning.
Lesson 2. PvP in zones with PvE objectives should always be viewed as PvP objectives. The PvE foes are tools and obstacles for the PvP fight. Use them, avoid them, get used by them... just be aware of them.
Lesson 3. Cowardice isn't Griefing. It's exactly that. Cowardice. It's siezing an opportunity and using it. If I wanted honorable duels I'll base raid or go to the arena. If I want true PvP then the zones are the best place.
Lesson 4. Don't travel alone. While you can solo the PvE content it's much more dangerous due to it being in a PvP zone. You want to talk Risk vs. Reward? Well, PvP reward is all about the taking down the character of another player. Overcoming the risk is usually reward in and of itself. If you want the PvE rewards without the PvP risk then you're likely going to have to find help. If you go in a group a lone stalker likely wouldn't attack (too risky). If you go in alone then you're bait.
Lesson 5. Be aware of your environment. Ask yourself: Would a Stalker be able to stealth attack me here? if the answer is 'yes' then start moving. If the answer is 'no' then start looking for the stalker.
Lesson 6. Honorable combat does happen. This should not be expected, however.
Lesson 7. Your lesson 1 is flawed largely because there is no xp for a PvP kill.
Lesson 8. Your lesson 2 is flawed because it assumes egocentricity. Instead of asking for no PvE content it is equally valid to say that a non-pvp'er must assume risk of pvp for that pve content. Like almost all content it is completely optional. No story arcs go into a PvP zone unless they start there. Your choice to go into a PvP zone, even if for the PvE content, denotes consent to PvP. It's not that PvP'ers don't want non-PvP'ers in zone (quite the opposite). It's that they don't want people coming into a PvP zone and complaining when they got a spoon full of PvP content while there.
Lesson 9. Griefing is never acceptable. Some people, however, have really thin skin and these people should not be coddled. Should griefing be strictly defined it will never be restrictive enough for some, or open enough for others. A general description is often better.
Lesson 10. Difficulty. PvP zones are generally an order of magnitude more difficult than PvE zones as unplanned combat is not only a possibility but also a likelyhood. Free For All zones an order above this because the attacker can be hero or villain and tactics have to take into account 10 AT's instead of only 5.
Lesson 11. Higher risk should entail higher reward. The reward in this case is accomplishment in the face of real adversity. Beating AI for a reward is reward one. Beating other players while working for a reward is reward two. No in game numbers for reward two, but a reward it is. Intangible rewards are still rewards. Reward two is where much of the appeal lies in PvP. What's the reward for a game of poker with a friend when there's no money involved? And how is it different from a game of poker with a computer AI when there's no money involved? Some things go beyond simple numbers, and Pvp is most definitely one of them.
Lesson 12. PvP isn't for everyone. If you don't want to PvP then don't go into the PvP zones. Simple, isn't it? If you want to PvE in a PvP zone then acknowledge that you're going into a PvP zone first and foremost. If this is upsetting then don't go into the PvP zone.
Lesson 13. PvP is *rarely* neat, organized battles. an arranged meeting for battle is by far the exception and not the rule. A better rule is: Anywhere, Anytime. Except safe areas, of course. Guerilla combat is the norm.
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-Started PvP in the *early* days of UO (1995) when there were more PvP zones than safe zones and going outside of town was often 'consent to PvP'.
-Still fondly remember my first WoW PvP server venture into contested areas. I was killed within 10 minutes by a rogue. Ganked, really. Hard feelings? Nope. It's part of the game. For what it's worth he /cry'd over my corpse before running off.
-Now CoV/H has PvP. I welcome it, even though I'm not going to be there very often.
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I think you'r missing Purples point, unless I am in which case this will be my point.
In the PVP Zone, if you are killed by a player you acrue no debt, and if you kill a player you gain no exp.
There are PVE enemies in the zone, killing them awards one exp and dying at their hand awards one debt.
If someone is there to PVP their goal should be to kill another player character, thus achieving the much saught after gloating rights.
It is unfortunately possible for someone to do several things which are not what it seems the devs intended, namely:
1. TPing almost dead PC's into the waiting arms of NPC's causing them to die at the NPC's hands and not theirs thus accruing debt for said PC.
2. TPing and PC into the waiting arms of a police drone or arachnos drone causing them to be one-shot killed with no chance of retaliating or knowing who got them (I understand sometimes you don't know anyway but theres a chance you might) once again accruing debt.
3. Waiting until someone is fighting an NPC, hitting them so their almost dead and NOT finishing them off YOURSELF, but letting the NPC finish them so they accrue debt.
I see deliberately causing a character to accfrue debt in a system designed so that PVP does not cause debt as griefing. Doing the above three things in a pvp zone is the same as dropping a teammate off a building into a mob using TP friend in a non PVP zone.
My solution? Make TP Foe not work on PC's using the ingame explanatoin that the teleport devices we wear to send us to and from hospitals cancel out unwanted TP. After all we have to click allow it for friendlies now.
This doesn't cance; out the thrid form of griefing but nothing will.
I also don't think anything that can kill you in one shot (Police Drone) and can't be killed itself should give you debt.