Carbon Devil, I understand that you want to play your stalker as it is intended to, but still, if I'm engaged with a NPC lieutenant and my HP is already at 25%, and then you strike me, I think it's coward from you.
Maybe coward is what stalkers are intended to be in PvP.
You want to hit me ?
Hit me when I'm healthy.
Once again, if I'm not against a NPC and in already a bad position, I will not feel griefed.
And last: the devs always said that PvP would be consensual, a free for all zone is nothing but consensual, it's...free for all.
But again, they also saif that they were done with major changes...
Well, honestly I dont see how anything can be considered griefing in a free for all pvp zone.. and purp, your complaining because its non consential pvp?
Ok, when you zone in. It says WARNING pvp area.. yes? And you did not leave the zone imediatly yes? Ok then, you just consented to the ability to be attacked, weither engaged or not with a npc of pc that you can be attacked by the enemy faction.
Really, its that simple, if you want a more controled pvp experince where you get your one on one full life fights, the arena is your line of pvp. But if you cant handle getting ganked, ambushed, and cheap shotted, in a zone you entered knowingly and consenting to it.. then get bruised over it.. then you shouldnt be there.
Again, just to run it down.
In a pvp free for all zone= Anything is legal unless they are using hacks, bugs or some kind of nasty thing. Weither you find it cowardly, dishonorable, sucky, is just your opinon, and not griefing. You dont have to be there. Once you enter, you consented to being ganked randomly by a stalker whos chuckling at the easy kill.
I have to go with MC on this. The free for all zone is not make or break zone. In Striga, you can be engaged in battle and find yourself in deep trouble if a roving patrol decides to stop and engage you as well. It's the same principle, except a stalker is really looking for weak pray and not stubling across it by happenstance. Stalker in my oppinion is really a poor griefer by design, it has one chance to gank you when your weak, but if you happen to have inspirations handy to survive their initial strike, then the're in a poor position for follow up.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Lord_Recluse
Define Grieving about Griefing, if you can now Please?
BTW When did spelling ever count in a video game or at a forum board, not since day one I guess because its spelled Grieving not Griefing.
Try a college type dictonary and you will see there is grief without a plural and grieve with the plurals of grieved and grieving. Grief and grieve are basically the same definition but one was meant to be used in the plural and the other not.
Hmmm, can video gamers rewrite the english language.
"me goes ther mite b anada wayz, oar wez con al 37it3 5p34k" LMAO
"definition from my book",
I guess there might be another way, or we can all just elite speak.
The LMAO can't be definded here without censorship.
Oh Rheticus to answer your question about grieving or whatever you want to call it, it's nothing more than plain and simple harassment in any shape or form. That causes frustration from another's act that was directed at you or someone else personally with the intent of some sort of malice being inflicted.
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But I don't know if it fully delineates the difference between an Antagonistic relationship and a Bully-ing one =\
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Given the nature of a griefer, it is never wise to print "these acts we define to be griefing" as the definitive list. Rules lawyering (cat & washer vs cat & dryer example above) then follows.
A laundry list of "these things are among those we consider griefing, and we'll add more examples to them as soon as the griefers provider them" is a better policy.
I have no idea what INTRUDER said, and to be honest, I am willing to bet it had absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's so great seeing this to sum up his posts.
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
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Purple_Sentinel:
Actually, I don't play Stalkers. 
Not my type of gameplay. I prefer Brutes. I was just stating how I feel about the situation your presented. As I said, I don't see it as griefing, but we all have different opinions. 
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Oh Rheticus to answer your question about grieving or whatever you want to call it, it's nothing more than plain and simple harassment in any shape or form.
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The problem is, what consitutes harrassment is subjective. Simply defeating someone in a consensual pvp zone could be considered "grief" to some.
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That causes frustration from another's act that was directed at you or someone else personally with the intent of some sort of malice being inflicted.
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How would you know if the person is intentionally (if they don't admit they are) causing malice or not?
I think the main problem is people crying "grief" anytime something doesn't go there way. And their inability to see things from another perspective.
For example, on the pvp servers in WoW, both the alliance and horde often had quests that involved killing the same type of mob in a similar location. People constantly complained about getting killed repeatedly by the same player and that they were beeing "griefed". However, if they looked at what happened objectively, they would have realised the person wasn't trying to spawn camp them, they were just on the same quest killing the same mob type. Instead of realising this and moving to a new location (or finding friends to help them defeat the guy) they spam "griefer" in chat and on the forums.
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Lord_Recluse
... its spelled Grieving not Griefing.
Try a college type dictonary and you will see there is grief without a plural and grieve with the plurals of grieved and grieving. Grief and grieve are basically the same definition but one was meant to be used in the plural and the other not.
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"grieve" means to feel grief. Not the same thing as the topic under discussion. "Grieve" is what the victims do when someone gives them "grief". The person giving them grief is a "griefer", a colloquialism. From "griefer" people have quite naturally derived "griefing" to express the acts or actions related to causing another player to grieve.
Time to buy a better dictionary, maybe. ;-)
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AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
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So your saying that i find a hero doing his working cleaning the crime element but I a stalker want to kill him since his a enemy... and if I do kill him as I should( a nija to put it in my favorite subject) Im a griefer for killing knowing that Im weak and my job for God's sake is to stalk and assasinate ( please people they what the word assasin stalker means) Im still a griefer... I think if you want know griefing just go have a nice session on Lineage2 and then talk me about real griefing... besides there's a warning sign saying your entering a pvp zone.../sarcasm I think it means go in have a nice cup of coffee with the next brute that was going to hit me before I offer him coffee...or just invite the stalker to play hide and blast!!... no,no pvp zone means partial vicinity for parties?/sarcasm off: you were change that attitude of mano a mano fights beacuse if i remember Dr.octopus doesn't wait for spider-man to get ready to fight...
I'm actually glad Cryptic *is* apparently taking this on a case by case basis and heading the potential griefer rules lawyer crowd off at the pass.
While I'm sure those of us on this thread just want to make sure we don't step over any lines, the fact is, the true griefer crowd is going to try to press for hard and fast do's and don'ts so they can avoid the responsibility of policing themselves. (We've all met them - they're the "if it was wrong, we couldn't do it/it would be specifically listed/you'd be able to defend against it" crowd.)
While I'm glad to know the official general sense of what griefing is considered to be -- and the definitions were great -- the fact is, people KNOW when they intend to harass someone and when they're deliberately being a jerk, versus playing competitively and with some common sense and sportsmanship.
Basically, I'd think it would be as simple as the philosophy of not doing anything to others that you know would spoil your game if it was done to you. When in doubt, err on the side of good sportsmanship - whether you're playing a villain or a hero. Be accountable for your actions, and act accordingly. If you make a mistake, apologize. If you have a hostile in-character encounter, *don't* take it out of character. Give the other person a chance to catch their breath and play, and if they indicate they've had enough...drop it.
IMO, if you're policing yourself and you don't want to grief, you've got nothing to worry about.
Leave the saving of the world to the men? I don't think so! -Elastigirl
The SOLUS Foundation - http://www.solusfoundation.com
A Liberty-based bastion, seven years strong.
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So your saying that i find a hero doing his working cleaning the crime element but I a stalker want to kill him since his a enemy... and if I do kill him as I should( a nija to put it in my favorite subject) Im a griefer for killing knowing that Im weak and my job for God's sake is to stalk and assasinate ( please people they what the word assasin stalker means) Im still a griefer... I think if you want know griefing just go have a nice session on Lineage2 and then talk me about real griefing... besides there's a warning sign saying your entering a pvp zone.../sarcasm I think it means go in have a nice cup of coffee with the next brute that was going to hit me before I offer him coffee...or just invite the stalker to play hide and blast!!... no,no pvp zone means partial vicinity for parties?/sarcasm off: you were change that attitude of mano a mano fights beacuse if i remember Dr.octopus doesn't wait for spider-man to get ready to fight...
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Next time you will be trying to get meteorite samples and your HP will be at 10% because the Shivans won't let you do, I'll be there to give you the final strike.
If PvP means acting like morons, I guess I can do that to meet your standarts.
Your a funny guy purple. The only time anyone is being a moron, is when they go into a free for all zone, and get hurt and feel its not fair that they didnt wait for you to get to full health after you beat the mob you were working on.
But I will give you this, you are completly granted to carry on this beleif that it is honorable and good for others to wait theyre turn to attack, By all means do. Becuase you see, the bad guys are villians, IE the enemy. Sure they have a player behind them but does a group of council running around in Striga go "Oh man, we better let this guy finish his deal with thos capos before we jump him.. that would be wrong!"
Of course not, and expecting a enemy to do that is just plain being naive.
When you go into a pvp zone, you are open game, as much as whomever else is clickable to attack. You can cling to your heroic ways, and fight the good fight all you like, but it is NOT griefing, or by any eula standard, for you to get blasted, stabbed, controled, etc. by a enemy, while your in combat with anyone, in a pvp zone.
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So your saying...
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Er, I'm not saying anything. I'm simply pointing out some technical problems with INTRUDER's insistence that "griefing" is misspelled.
For the record, my own definition is up above. Um, post #3912776.
In my own case, your example is meaningless because the only characters I'll be taking into the PvP zones will be villains and except for Siren's Call, you won't be able to attack me. 
Now, if you stalk up behind me in Siren's Call and hit me with Assassin's Strike I'll be very angry, yes. So, you had better hope it lands and sends me packing with one shot, because if it doesn't, you'll find yourself repeatedly slammed into the ground and then knocked halfway across the zone. 
I hope you enjoy ragdoll physics. 
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AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
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So your saying...
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Er, I'm not saying anything. I'm simply pointing out some technical problems with INTRUDER's insistence that "griefing" is misspelled.
For the record, my own definition is up above. Um, post #3912776.
In my own case, your example is meaningless because the only characters I'll be taking into the PvP zones will be villains and except for Siren's Call, you won't be able to attack me.
Now, if you stalk up behind me in Siren's Call and hit me with Assassin's Strike I'll be very angry, yes. So, you had better hope it lands and sends me packing with one shot, because if it doesn't, you'll find yourself repeatedly slammed into the ground and then knocked halfway across the zone.
I hope you enjoy ragdoll physics.
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Hehe , thats the spirit ! I like that !
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
If you choose to PvP, and someone PvP's you, it's not griefing. You're there on purpose. If the goal is to defeat your opponent, then expect people to cheap-shot, back stab, attack when you're out of endurance, etc. etc. etc.
The point is, you can't accidentally PvP. If you don't want to PvP (and I don't), stay out of the PvP zones. There's plenty of other stuff to do.
If you choose to enter a PVP zone, you have no grounds for complaint when someone else PVP's you. REGARDLESS of the circumstances!
During the PVP event on COV Beta, I got killed maybe three times - twice due in part to lag (by the time my computer realised I was being attacked, and displayed that fact to me, it was too late), and once due to the skillful and presistent (tenacious?) efforts of a hero who seemed determined to drop me - and he did, for which I congratulated him via /tell.
Yes, you read me right - congratulated. It was a righteous "kill", and never mind that I was already down to under half health after being hit hard by a large group of NPCs from Longbow (one of them used something from the Leadership pool, I think, and yanked off my security blanket of Stealth - no, not a stalker, a robo/FF mastermind ... why get yourself targetted for attacks when you can just order your disposable-and-replaceable minions into battle FOR you? ^_^).
There's no such thing as "wait your turn" in a PVP area - any more than NPCs need to wait THEIR turn. You aggro something, it hits you, and tough luck. Heck, it's been as much as said that it'd be legitimate to aggro a bunch of NPCs, drag them over, and shed the aggro onto your intended target, so as to swing the tide of battle ...! (I can picture a Stalker with Ninjitsu doing that, as they can shed aggro and go back under Hide even with a whole group nearby).
So, maybe, there you are with one mob ... and another comes along to attack you. Hey, that happens sometimes, right? So yu lean into THEM, too. And just as you're fullycomitted, and almost done killing them - really low on hitpoints/endurance, perhaps, and getting low on inspirations - *Pow!* ... you take an Assassn Strike to the back of the head, and go down like a sack of potatoes.
And it's not griefing; it's STRATEGY. If you're in a PVP area, and you get below half health? RUN AND HIDE, even if all you are fighting and can een see is "only" NPCs.
If you don't run, or if runnign doesn't work? Tough luck, chum, but .... that's what the PvP zones are all about.
Don't like that? Don't go to the PvP zones ...!
Yes, it IS just that simple.
Most poster in the thread would have not problem if I took a bunch of Controllerd or Corruptors and sat around chain holding any villain or hero that happened by until they log, since there only a few ways to avoid this. Of course, hold them some more if they log in. They could call in their friends/SG for help. If they are a lone wolf they might as well log onto another character for awhile.
Is this greifing? If it is how can they prevent it other than banning players for using their powers?
Remember Rez and teleport were changed to these power being abused.
I am sure that circumstances like this are going to happen in a PvP enviroment.
I think the concern is that there was a very limit amount of time to test pvp, there are a ton of issues that need to be addressed, not just the one above. Areas were player can blast and not be targeted from, WoW was still fixing some of these areas 6 months after that game released.
I don't dislike playing PvP. COH is trying a good attempt at a fair system. It will be interesting to see how fast nerf happen when someone figures a good set of powers. It will interesting to see the x is killing y screams. The stalker is already being set-up as the pvp please nerf me poster child.
I hate greifers.
Again, if you don't want to have your hero (or villain) set upon by the other side...
don't go to the PvP Zones!
-----------------------------
Now that I've said that:
Here's some things that might need to be tested vis a vis griefer-like exploits:
If a player is zoning in, and standing in the 'safe area' -- can he be TP'd out of the safe zone by use of TP Foe? Or hit by a sniper shot from outside the safe zone?
Can 'safe zone' heroes or villains be targeted at all?
Another possible 'problem' will be those that use TP Foe to 'fish' for opponents... say, high up on a building. Granted TP Foe has much less range than Recall Friend... but you can still 'drop' someone in midair and watch them take falling damage... over and over and over....
Not sure what abilities would allow resistance to 'teleport lock' - I suppose it'd be similar to other status effects.
As for the getting chain-held, controlled, slept, etc... yah well... it'd be the same as when in the Arena. Carry a break-free or two, if you pop it before the power recharges, you have a chance to either get away or hit them.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
I think this will be my last post in this thread.
I've learned two things here:
1. The risk vs reward as no value for PvPers if they insist on hitting the weakened enemies.
And don't give me the council in striga crap, they are AI and they are coded to attack.
Players have common sense and chose to attack weakened players (would they even bother hitting a NPC enemy if his health was down to 5% ? no, because there is no xp for this)
2. PvPers don't want other players in "their" zones. So, instead of asking no pvpers not to come, why don't they ask developpers to not put any PvE content in their precious zone ?
I think your just not getting it purple.
It is a player versues player zone, where the focus is to defeat other players, regardless of how much life they have, or what they are doing. That is all.
And no where do I see the people whom come there to pvp complaining about you being there, your just another body to kill and thats in no way hurting theyre fun. The only person saying its wrong is your beleif that you should be able to call it griefing when your killed while fighting a npc in a pvp zone, which is crap, its what the zone is designed for.
If you cant handle it, its you whom shouldnt be there, no need to get the devs, or the pvpers concerned at all.
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Lord_Recluse
... its spelled Grieving not Griefing.
Try a college type dictonary and you will see there is grief without a plural and grieve with the plurals of grieved and grieving. Grief and grieve are basically the same definition but one was meant to be used in the plural and the other not.
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"grieve" means to feel grief. Not the same thing as the topic under discussion. "Grieve" is what the victims do when someone gives them "grief". The person giving them grief is a "griefer", a colloquialism. From "griefer" people have quite naturally derived "griefing" to express the acts or actions related to causing another player to grieve.
Time to buy a better dictionary, maybe. ;-)
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No and here is why you are wrong, which can be ascertained from the definitions of both words, which are found in most common dictonaries.
Grief; noun.
1, deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. 2 a source of sorrow or anguish. 3 annoyance or frustration.
Notice no pural acknowledgement
Grieve; verb. grieved, grieving.
1 to cause sorrow: to distress. 2 to feel or express grief (Latin for gravdre, to burden)
Now number one in "grieve" sums it all up as to the action. But since it is a verb in order to convey it as an action, one must make it pural, hench it become grieving.
Now, if you can find the definition of the word "griefing" in the dictonary ( no such word exists) , sorry but you won't because it's the pural of grieve, as stating a "grieving" action and a feeling that was caused by it. See the pural of the word now, the action and the feeling caused by it?
Intruder, stop with the Websters and wake up.
"GRIEFING" is GAME SLANG. IT WILL NOT BE FOUND IN ANY DICTIONARY.
Therefore your "you misspelled the word therefore your definition is moot" argument is itself moot.
(sorry to have to pull out the great big club of obvious, but this whole method of rebuttal gets on my nerves.)
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
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I think this will be my last post in this thread.
I've learned two things here:
1. The risk vs reward as no value for PvPers if they insist on hitting the weakened enemies.
And don't give me the council in striga crap, they are AI and they are coded to attack.
Players have common sense and chose to attack weakened players (would they even bother hitting a NPC enemy if his health was down to 5% ? no, because there is no xp for this)
2. PvPers don't want other players in "their" zones. So, instead of asking no pvpers not to come, why don't they ask developpers to not put any PvE content in their precious zone ?
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Maybe a better lesson is in PvP as a whole, instead of neatly defined conflicts.
Lesson 1. PvP is usually quick and messy. PvP conflicts are usually over in a fraction fo the time of a PvE conflict, and often begin and end with little warning.
Lesson 2. PvP in zones with PvE objectives should always be viewed as PvP objectives. The PvE foes are tools and obstacles for the PvP fight. Use them, avoid them, get used by them... just be aware of them.
Lesson 3. Cowardice isn't Griefing. It's exactly that. Cowardice. It's siezing an opportunity and using it. If I wanted honorable duels I'll base raid or go to the arena. If I want true PvP then the zones are the best place.
Lesson 4. Don't travel alone. While you can solo the PvE content it's much more dangerous due to it being in a PvP zone. You want to talk Risk vs. Reward? Well, PvP reward is all about the taking down the character of another player. Overcoming the risk is usually reward in and of itself. If you want the PvE rewards without the PvP risk then you're likely going to have to find help. If you go in a group a lone stalker likely wouldn't attack (too risky). If you go in alone then you're bait.
Lesson 5. Be aware of your environment. Ask yourself: Would a Stalker be able to stealth attack me here? if the answer is 'yes' then start moving. If the answer is 'no' then start looking for the stalker.
Lesson 6. Honorable combat does happen. This should not be expected, however.
Lesson 7. Your lesson 1 is flawed largely because there is no xp for a PvP kill.
Lesson 8. Your lesson 2 is flawed because it assumes egocentricity. Instead of asking for no PvE content it is equally valid to say that a non-pvp'er must assume risk of pvp for that pve content. Like almost all content it is completely optional. No story arcs go into a PvP zone unless they start there. Your choice to go into a PvP zone, even if for the PvE content, denotes consent to PvP. It's not that PvP'ers don't want non-PvP'ers in zone (quite the opposite). It's that they don't want people coming into a PvP zone and complaining when they got a spoon full of PvP content while there.
Lesson 9. Griefing is never acceptable. Some people, however, have really thin skin and these people should not be coddled. Should griefing be strictly defined it will never be restrictive enough for some, or open enough for others. A general description is often better.
Lesson 10. Difficulty. PvP zones are generally an order of magnitude more difficult than PvE zones as unplanned combat is not only a possibility but also a likelyhood. Free For All zones an order above this because the attacker can be hero or villain and tactics have to take into account 10 AT's instead of only 5.
Lesson 11. Higher risk should entail higher reward. The reward in this case is accomplishment in the face of real adversity. Beating AI for a reward is reward one. Beating other players while working for a reward is reward two. No in game numbers for reward two, but a reward it is. Intangible rewards are still rewards. Reward two is where much of the appeal lies in PvP. What's the reward for a game of poker with a friend when there's no money involved? And how is it different from a game of poker with a computer AI when there's no money involved? Some things go beyond simple numbers, and Pvp is most definitely one of them.
Lesson 12. PvP isn't for everyone. If you don't want to PvP then don't go into the PvP zones. Simple, isn't it? If you want to PvE in a PvP zone then acknowledge that you're going into a PvP zone first and foremost. If this is upsetting then don't go into the PvP zone.
Lesson 13. PvP is *rarely* neat, organized battles. an arranged meeting for battle is by far the exception and not the rule. A better rule is: Anywhere, Anytime. Except safe areas, of course. Guerilla combat is the norm.
---------------------------
-Started PvP in the *early* days of UO (1995) when there were more PvP zones than safe zones and going outside of town was often 'consent to PvP'.
-Still fondly remember my first WoW PvP server venture into contested areas. I was killed within 10 minutes by a rogue. Ganked, really. Hard feelings? Nope. It's part of the game. For what it's worth he /cry'd over my corpse before running off.
-Now CoV/H has PvP. I welcome it, even though I'm not going to be there very often.
I think when in this case wich is my own problem is that players like stalkers will try to manhunt people like a sport and making such acts of relentless hunts to a specific type/lvl/AT beacuse they are to there eyes weaker makes them happy to destroy them time after time will cause one of the greatest griefings in this system but as said before griefing can't be define as a solid way since griefing can be killing a person just 2 times and that person is so mad just for that he will just say his greifing just to get you out of his life... I would most likely suggest to report such acts to have more than 1 witness to report such acts against player of our community. ( demmands 5 star for long talk and a chocolate cookie.)