Philosophical ramblings, what's the point of 50?
By
ahaha,
Posted on: 2004-09-23 13:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
CuppaJo wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
A good player realizes that games are different things to different people.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just a bad excuse. The good DEVELOPER realize they should make different servers for the different types of people, where there are some changes in the system. Ie, make a server with exp requirement reduced by 60% for instance.
[ QUOTE ]
CoH examples
Achievers Power Levelers
Killers Griefers/KSers
Explorers Badges
Socializers Dance Club
[/ QUOTE ]
and
[ QUOTE ]
Cuppajoe, how do you like having people telling you and others what you said despite the fact that the author is clearly typed at the beginning of the exposition
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the first quote was Cuppa's take on Bartles MMORPG archtypes and how they relate to CoH. I believe that is what most people are taking exception too. None have said "There isn't such a thing as Killer Archtypes" merely that CoH doesn't meet the needs of the killer Archtype in the method Cuppa sugested.
I think what most would say is that the killer-type personallity people in CoH are starved for content that meets their needs, instead of they are the source of conflict in the game (as Griefers/KSers).
What about the rest of us, the - I imagine it to be a vast, silent minority - who play to have fun ... ?
[ QUOTE ]
There are Achievers, Killers, Explorers, and Socializers.
Achievers want to level.
Killers want to impose themselves on others.
Explorers want to see/do everything.
Socializers want to talk about it.
CoH examples
Achievers Power Levelers
Killers Griefers/KSers
Explorers Badges
Socializers Dance Club
[/ QUOTE ]
And you have of course oh so cleverly combined it, so in order to be an Explorer you need to be an Achiver.
Down with zones barred from levels!
[ QUOTE ]
the reward for getting to 50 is that you get to start a new guy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow what an amazing reward!!
Sorry Hulk, you're at max level, please reroll and take up a new power.
What?
You heard me! There's no point in you turning green and big anymore, there's NOTHING left for you to do in this HUGE city.
*grumble*
That excuse is just to cover up their poor design.
The OP's point hasn't been addressed, and cuppa joe's response doesn't actually respond to it. The KEY is loot. And then raid content. Those are the two big holes missing in Coh. You can talk about explorers, blah blah blah. IN 99 percent of rpgs there is loot and in most mmos getting the best loot requires raiding. Why? Acheiving difficult objectives and getting substantial rewards is funner than achieiving trivial objectives with no rewards.
The "casual gamer" doesn't want big stuff that requires strategy and an effort and spending some time doing something. Fine. But ultimately it makes for a shallow game, where you do the missions over and over in the same time of environments (how many warehouse mishes have lvl 50s done?).
And. There's practically no endgame. Hamidon. Okay. How many players in this game have killed him? .01 percent I'd say. How does that effect the "casual gamer"? How many will kill him? Not many. Most will just either quit or restart at lvl 50. Heck I got my healer to 45 and there was no reason to continue - he could heal fine as is, there were no new powers I needed, and I'd been sked so much I'd seen most of the 50 lvl content (and all my travel badges, including Hamidon).
Those who say "it's the journey, not the destination" I argue in a great game it's the journey AND the destination. Lvl 50 should have a ton of stuff to do and have fun.
[ QUOTE ]
The OP's point hasn't been addressed, and cuppa joe's response doesn't actually respond to it. The KEY is loot. And then raid content. Those are the two big holes missing in Coh. You can talk about explorers, blah blah blah. IN 99 percent of rpgs there is loot and in most mmos getting the best loot requires raiding. Why? Acheiving difficult objectives and getting substantial rewards is funner than achieiving trivial objectives with no rewards.
The "casual gamer" doesn't want big stuff that requires strategy and an effort and spending some time doing something. Fine. But ultimately it makes for a shallow game, where you do the missions over and over in the same time of environments (how many warehouse mishes have lvl 50s done?).
And. There's practically no endgame. Hamidon. Okay. How many players in this game have killed him? .01 percent I'd say. How does that effect the "casual gamer"? How many will kill him? Not many. Most will just either quit or restart at lvl 50. Heck I got my healer to 45 and there was no reason to continue - he could heal fine as is, there were no new powers I needed, and I'd been sked so much I'd seen most of the 50 lvl content (and all my travel badges, including Hamidon).
Those who say "it's the journey, not the destination" I argue in a great game it's the journey AND the destination. Lvl 50 should have a ton of stuff to do and have fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
No MMO really has an "Endgame". And please, no loot.
Sure it does. RvR in DaoC. It's acceptable "endgame" where you fight for control of several Keeps and get bonuses for holding them. Also there's a website that tracks your stats per sever (www.camelotherald.com)
Here's my 2 influence:
To me, there is no point to 50 -- I honestly feel sorry for characters that have reached 50. Level 50 is not "winning the game", it signifies that "the game is over;" the game isn't about the "destination" (i.e. 50), but the journey -- all the rich content -- along the way.
The only thing to look forward to at 50 is the infinitesimally smaller advantage on Hamidon raids -- and we know how well that's going so far. (That and the upcoming Epic AT/sets, at which point I'll concede it'll be worth having 1 level 50 toon.)
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess my philosophical issue is, am I a MMORPG kinda person anymore? I no longer have desires to spend 14 hours of a day camping a zone for an item, I rather prefer to log on for two hours here and there, and then log off. The problem is that MMORPGs in general reward those that are most likely to cause greater profit. CoH isnt really interested in players like me; they prefer the people that are enamored by the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been playing off-and-on since three days after release. My highest level character is 25 and I'm impressed that I'm about to 'ding' 20th level with my second-highest character.
I feel sorry for those who raced to level 50. I feel sorry for those who would even consider "spending 14 hours of a day camping a zone for an item" a worthwhile expense of time. See, you MAY have "beaten everybody else", you may "be the highest level player", but all you got in the end is bragging rights.
Hours upon hours of obsessive grinding spent just so you can say "Nya-nya! I'm higher than everybody else!" Is it worth it? Are you somehow enjoying the game more than I am with my pathetic 20th level character? Considering that you are left with no more game content and few other heroes of your level, I doubt it.
The value of getting to level 50 depends on how you got there. It's just like life, in this regard... "The destination doesn't matter, it's what you do along the way that's REALLY important."
The ultimate goal of life is to die, so there's really no race to "get to the end". Consider that getting to level 50 and
"completing the game" is currently the equivalent of your character dying, because...while he may still exist...there's no-longer anything for him to do. With this in mind, I fail to see the logic in "racing to level 50".
Now, for completing a game...like Diablo or Warcraft...there was a satisfaction at having completed something...having "won". CoH does not strike me as that kind of game...it doesn't seem to be one in which you can say "Ah, I've arrived", so I'm more than happy taking my time, smelling the roses, and enjoying what my character level has to offer for an hour or so a night instead of obsessing over levelling so much that I lose sleep in a fruitless quest for powergaming.
[ QUOTE ]
In fact, my hope is that a lot of people who (like me) have teetered to the powerlevelling side will slow down and group up more in the future, RP more in the future... because there's a dearth of smart players in groups, especially at the low levels.
Either way, I see myself playing CoH for a long time to come - maybe not as much as I do now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great post Plasma. Your words sum up my feelings exactly.
I don't actually fit any of those 4 MMORPG categories... kind of a little bit of everything. I am an achiever, but not at leveling. I take each mission one at a time (our ability to set difficulty so that a challenge is always had is great!). The achievement for me is in the moment, during that battle, against that one mob who is kicking my team's collective butts. Leveling happens as a side effect of those small achievement goals being reached. 
Too busy on Test to read the whole thing, but one comment stuck out to me.
"And it was easier to be social in EQ."
I don't see how that is possible. I played EQ. I don't see anything there that somehow lends it to more easily "be social" than any other MMO. Either you're social, or you're not. This is not a game issue.
I played EQ for 1.5 years. And DAOC for several months. There's nothing inherently more "social" about them.
Anyhow, I'm a social person and I typically chat with whoever I group with, or fight against. And I have ample opportunities for both in this game. I play this game for the experience, not the XP, but without others in this game, I wouldn't play it. 
Maybe he knew more about Dragons and elfs than comic heroes and villians so he felt more comfort in talking to people about those things..Imo 
Send him a copy of the book from which your avatar was cropped (and squashed).
I played EQ for 3 years. If you have only played recently you don't know what the original EQ was like. We used to have to play for weeks to gain a level. Getting to Max level took months even for power players.
Then they started watering down the game so everyone could get to raid levels quickly but it took like 5 years before that happened. Until then 1 death meant like 4-5 hours of play wiped out. But high level players knew what they were doing. They didn't make it easier to level until they had tons of high level content until then it was near impossible to level. CoH is easy.
One of the problems here is that your interests aren't everyones as pointed out. I played EQ for 3 years and absolutely HATED raiding. One of the main reasons I like CoH is because I won't ever be forced to raid again. Why anyone likes raids is beyond my understanding.
Competeing against other humans is another thing I could care less about. This is something younger players care more about. I like helping other players out but I could care less about their equipment or what they think of mine.
For me enjoyment comes from setting goals and achieving them. Trying out new powers and strategies. CoH allows me to combine different powers in lots of ways to develop tons of tactics. It is a very flexible game. I also like customizing my characters. The more ways I can make my character unique the happier I am. Games like WoW every Warrior is a warrior blah. At least EQ had a very good system for adding new skills after you maxed out and didn't let you swap them all around whenever you wanted.
Getting to 50 isn't important unless that is a goal I have set for myself. Most of my characters haven't reached 50 because there is no point. I can have more fun with a new character. I leave a lot in the high 30's and 40's.
You get out of the game what you put into it. If all you care about is leveling, the game will get boring because you aren't putting anything into it and have set your goal of 50 so far out it takes too long to achieve.
For example my current toon I decided to see how much prestige I could earn with a toon if I did only things that earned max prestige regardless of anything else. At level 26 he now has over 260K prestige and has passed most of the people in my SG. He isn't leveling fast but he has tons of prestige, influence and salvage from hunting only bosses and doing outdoor missions (hunting X bosses LOL). And I had a lot of fun from doing something very different and playing MY game.
You have to pick a game that does what you want or accept a game for what it is, you can't expect a game to become what you want it to be. Unless you are the publisher maybe.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Just out of curiosity, do any of you guys realize that before today, this thread had its last reply in November of 2004?
Not that I care. I enjoy thread necromancy, actually. Just wondering.
The forum bugs seem to be randomly pulling threads up...
Pay attention to what you reply to guys and girls.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
You know, I wondered where this thread came from. We have somone necro posting and I noticed most of them. But didn't catch this one. Sorry.
[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity, do any of you guys realize that before today, this thread had its last reply in November of 2004?
Not that I care. I enjoy thread necromancy, actually. Just wondering.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd bet money that the OP is happily sitting in a 40 man Ragnaros circle jerk right now.
[ QUOTE ]
What if we could work towards:
[/ QUOTE ]
My guess is, it would inspire the following whining on the boards:
[ QUOTE ]
1) new costume enhancements (besides capes and auras), such as boots, gloves, jetpacks, wings, etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Waaah why can't I have part X unless I do Y, my hero concept depends on having part X from level 1, Superman never had to go without boots until he did a specific thing, this isn't fair the game sucks."
[ QUOTE ]
2) extra enhancement slots and/or extra inspiration slots. These would be awesome rewards for something big
[/ QUOTE ]
"Waaah when I go into PvP zones I'm instantly ganked by players with no lives who did trial X dozens of times and are way more powerful than me, it's not fair that you can't be competitive in PvP unless you churn trial X all the time, this is way unbalanced"
[ QUOTE ]
5) 'deeper' mission content, with missions that occur randomly during your gameplay -- why do bad guys always stand around waiting for you to show up? (Picture this: you get called by your custom 'bat-signal' (I can't believe this game doesn't have such a concept)..."there's a bank robbery in progress in Independence Port, the bad guys are fleeing South on Valour Bridge, in a grey sedan...stop them!")
[/ QUOTE ]
"Waaah I got a random mish when I was Killing Skuls in King's Row today and by the time I got there some level 50 jerk hacker killed all the bad guys, Devs do something about the KSing!!"
[ QUOTE ]
"The Baxter building is on fire! There are 20 people trapped on the 87th floor! Save them! You have 15 minutes!")
...if you choose to let the poor people of the Baxter building burn to death, or you FAIL to save them, your reputation suffers.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Waah a random mission popped up when I was trying to do missions with my SG and then my cable modem died and now I have a big reputation hit! This game sucks I'm leaving."
Worse part is, some of those complaints would actually be *legitimate*.
Character index
[ QUOTE ]
The forum bugs seem to be randomly pulling threads up...
Pay attention to what you reply to guys and girls.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops. 
Character index
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I wondered where this thread came from. We have somone necro posting and I noticed most of them. But didn't catch this one. Sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
The ones you find that have no new Replies at the end of them are easy:
It is an old trick where some immature Forum Poster will drag up a dead-thread and add a new Post to it, then DELETE their own post right after. It still leaves the thread up at the top of the Listing and then new Posters get suckered into adding to it.
Since the Mods never have the code lock regular threads after a certain date, we get stuck with the mental-kiddies who thrive on doing this for kicks just to see how long they can get away with it. Yeah, that trick is older as the necro-threads themselves and twice as annoying.
[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't having fun, then stop playing. We should adapt to the developers, not the other way around.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hell no. When they change it for the worse we complain.