Devs - Super Reflexes
By
AllHazzardi,
Posted on: 2004-09-07 23:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Geko posted this when they revamped all SR powers a few patches ago.
Passives are 10 percent base +DEF.
Toggles are 20 percent base +DEF.
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Seems stacking them may be overkill once you get SO's. Respec is good.
Anyone know how the other DEF boosts compare? Maybe Hasten is worth doubling up a DEF ability to get the extra effect?
Just my opinion but how about a power that every time you got hit you got a portion of endurance back depending on how much you were hit for.
Call it something like "Circular Force"
Concept based on useing your reflexes to use the attackers energy against him.
Or a more direct approach an ability that reflected a bit of the damage done to you back onto the attacker. "Circular Force"
I like the idea of an endurance regen btw.
The reason why INV is for the most part better than SR is that it has both DEF and RES buffs, whereas SR only has DEF.
I hear talk about damage over time, that 90% DEF vs 90% RES (or so) is comparible over time with even con mobs.
The difference is that with high RES you can see the HP go down over time in progression.
With high DEF you instantly lose that HP, and it could immediately be too much and you are dead in one shot.
The deal was that, once we encounter Archvillain or even bosses, all those defenses means absolutely nothing, zero, nada, zip, game over.
Their accuracy overwrite every advantage SR has.
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The idea is that you didn't get hit, you just saw into the future, and what could have happened. It was just an example, you could fit plenty of things in there to justify a heal, though yes, it would be a stretch.
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It would be an irrationally huge stretch. To the point of making no sense whatsoever. Your health bar shows your current health, not the future.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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If they nerf my Fire/Dev blaster again after Smoke Grenade, I will be moving on to WoW. It is a bummer as your character gets progressively weaker.
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Nevermind that the character was blatantly, horribly, grossly broken to begin with and you should have expected some SEVERE nerfing from the start. Get the f*** over it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Hate to break it to you, but you're going to be disappointed with WoW if you think they'll leave overpowered skills/combos un-nerfed.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Threadmilling
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Now THAT'S some pretty damn hilarious unconcsious unintended IRONY!
Threadmilling (sic) typo, in a THREAD that's already been posted once word-for-word in the scrapper forums, before it was MILLED right on over into the general forums!
That slip made me chuckle a lot. Even though it's completely unintended and completely unrelated.
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The sad part is that the fact that it's repeated over and over again shows that it's NOT, in fact, a typo, but an indication that he actually thinks it's spelled that way...
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
if EVERY power was or did the same damage, THEN WHY HAVE DIFFRENT POWERS. IF YOUR TOON IN YOUR MIND HAS SUPER REFLEXES, THEN PLAY SUPER REFLEXES. If you didn't want to take damage, then take invuln.
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You moron... if EVERY power was or did the same damage, THEN WHY HAVE DIFFRENT POWERS. IF YOUR TOON IN YOUR MIND HAS SUPER REFLEXES, THEN PLAY SUPER REFLEXES. If you didn't want to take damage, then take invuln.
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Flaming was uncalled for.
Secondly, since when is Resistance "Invuln Only"?
It isnt.
Dark Armor has Resistance, Regen has Resistance(though, only a small amount), the other Tanker powersets have resistance, then there's also Tough, which everyone can take...
So, don't tell us "If we don't want to take damage, take Invuln"
From a balance standpoint, look at this. Invuln has a Heal, Regen has a Heal, Dark Armor has a Heal as well. What does SR have? NOTHING. Giving SR healing or resistance is NOT going to take anything away from Invuln or Regen.
IMO, SR should excel at Defense, while still having minor backup defenses like resistance and a heal.
Personally, I think something like Glancing Blow would make PERFECT sense.
There are even some situations in which a heal would be appropriate. (Dull Pain, Second Wind)
Balance is key, and the fact is, SR needs either Resistance, or a heal. Or both. 
Resistance, self heal and endurance regen are all cool things but I doubt more than 2 of those things come about.
Maybe a Dull Pain that, when activated, heals, but instead of providing a HP increase, slightly increases the rate of endurance gain for the duration of the buff. Say 1 minute with a cycle time of 2 minutes. That way you take a little bit of the edge off of running those toggles.
That would take care of an immediate health boost, and the stamina problems the power set suffers from.
Then have an auto power for increase resistance that you can take at higher levels (say the level you could take Lucky before) that will at least tone down some of the damage you do take.
Hmm, had another brainstorm. What do you guys think?
Through some combination of munging the existing SR set, you free up two slots (this is not hard to do).
1. Clear Purpose: Auto (toggle?): 50% resistance to enemy debuffs.
Takes Enhance Damage Resistance enhancements to increase the effect.
Animation: Your character goes in a Zen-like pose for a second (if it's a toggle) at startup.
Recharge: Fast (if toggle)
Description: Your purpose is clear, you do not let enemy attacks dissuade you from your cause.
Slot: Later power slot (early debuffs don't really matter that much). Probably 7th or 8th.
2. Second Wind: Click: Recover 40 END.
Takes: Enhance Endurance Gain, Reduce Recharge time
Animation: Your character wipes off his cheek with his fist and then holds his hand out in front of him, palm up, and waves his fingers inward a couple of times.
Rechage: Slow (2 mins at least)
Description: Your second wind kicks in and you are ready to fight even harder.
Slot: Probably third or forth in the revised SR setup. This should be early to avoid being eclipsed by Stamina.
I think these should fit fairly easily in the SR secondary without overpowering the set and without stepping on anyone elses's (tankers) toes. It doesn't necessarily bring SR up to the level of the other Scrapper secondaries defensively, but it at least gives them _something_ to hold over the other secondaires. We may die easy against tough opponents, but at least we can avoid debuffs unlike you guys! Also, as a MA/SR scrapper, I can say that anything that prevents my defense from being debuffed is very welcome, since that's how I die most of the time.
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You moron... if EVERY power was or did the same damage, THEN WHY HAVE DIFFRENT POWERS. IF YOUR TOON IN YOUR MIND HAS SUPER REFLEXES, THEN PLAY SUPER REFLEXES. If you didn't want to take damage, then take invuln.
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This makes no sense considering how invincibility in the invuln set adds to defense so well, as does tough hide.
Why is it appropriate for invuln to have the best resist and massive defense too and not for SR to get a bit of resistance?
Resistance could be added through both a "rolling with the punches" concept or a "iron bone training" type of concept.
Also, your notion that equivilent powers are the same is false on its face.
I hope you don't really feel that making every set equally equally desirable doesn't by definition entail making them carbon copies. If you do, I would say you have some thinking to get done.
Suggestions to Devs:
1. Combine Range and AoE/Cones (discussed ad nauseum).
2. Add +Resistance to the set. Suggest adding a small amount +Res to all powers. This would prevent people from unintentionally gimping themselves. Alternative would be Absorb--a sort of "rolling with the punches" idea.
3. Fix Endurance issues (e.g. boring down-time of Elude, too many toggles--FF, FS, Evasion, Tough, Travels, etc.). Suggest lowering toggle costs.
4. Add Healing power. All other Scrapper secondaries have a heal. Fitness Pool's Healing doesn't significantly effect health in a battle. Medicine Pool's Heal Self is interruptable and not practical in battle. Suggest Dull Pain. It's tried, tested, common and effectively scaled.
5. Fix +Def scalability. SR is possibly too strong against low level mobs and too weak against bosses and higher level mobs. If other game fixes push Inv/Regen/Dark Scrappers down to fighting same level mobs, this would not need fixing, but I highly doubt that this will happen, so giving SR the ability to survive the higher level mobs would be fair. Suggest a slight boost of 5% +Def for every level above your own and a -5% for every level below your own. Not much, but it would smooth the disparity.
6. Reduce the number of necessary slots, powers, and Pool powers. It's not viable to have an SR scrapper without Fitness (Stamina to run the toggles), Fighting (Tough), and Speed (Haste is far superior to Quickness). Unless you are content with Super Speed, the Travel power takes the remaining Pool power set. There is no option for Leadership, Concealment, Medicine, Presence, or any of the other great Pools that we'd like to take. Suggest combining Elude with Focused Senses and replacing Elude with a more creative but less slot-intensive power. Also suggest combining Lucky with Agile and replacing Lucky with a less slot-intensive power.
7. Improve Quickness. Right now its a decent power, but it's far overshadowed by Hasten's fully slotted ability to recharge powers in a nano-second (hyperbole ). If Quickness were superior to Hasten (or at least as good), then there would be many more options for an SR scrapper other than a Travel power. Power set powers are supposed to be better th an generic Pool powers right? Regen: Quick Recovery is superior to Stamina, Fast Healing is superior to (Fitness Pool) Healing. Invuln: Temporary Invulnerability is superior to Tough, Invincibility is superior to Weave. Why isn't Quickness superior to Hasten? SR is already too slot-heavy, but we should at least be able to slot Quickness to Hasten levels and choose to skip the Speed Pool. Suggest allowing recharge enhancements to scale Quickness higher than Hasten is currently. This reduces/eliminates the need for Hasten and the Speed Pool. There would still be a small benefit from taking Hasten, much like there's a small benefit now from taking Quickness (~3% recharge increase over the other fully slotted). It would allow SR to feel better about their secondary and also provide more flexibility in Pool selection. As it is currently, the few SR scrappers that exist today look disappointingly similar (Pools: Fitness, Speed, Fighting, Travel). Let's give the RP'er an equal choice.
Just my $0.02
OK I didn't go through the entire thread so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before.
I remember Positron once quoting about some "Streak Breaker Code", which monitors to-hit chances and if it detects that you've been getting a steak of misses, will give you a hit once in a while.
Now since the SR line is all about defence that causes enemies to miss you, I wonder if this so-called Streak Breaker Code has got anything to do with SR's weaknesses?
Just speculation, I suppose... would be nice if Positron clarified this.
That's been clarified before. The streakbreaker doesn't operate for mobs.
There are three cases I have found where Super Reflexes give no defense whatsoever, and one potential issue coming up.
The three cases are probably related, codewise. Swarms, red crystals, and the effect from the Envoy of Shadows. I was hoping that the AoE dodge would protect against them, but no such luck. Most of them are relatively minor damage, but the Envoy issue is quite large and makes it very hard to be a 'boss killer'.
The upcoming issue is the 'makes minions tougher' patch. While welcome (Though I think a one to three hero to minion ratio is too low: I currently find groups of four minions and a LT in a solo mission, and that doesn't count gating in aid), the fact is, SR relies on defeating the opponent before the opponent hits you twice. The more swings, the more chance the opponent will hit you twice, and at high levels, even with scrapper HP, a second hit will take you down. Sometimes before you can pop an inspiration.
I suppose that's about it. I've noticed Carnies can mez through practiced brawler, but that's not too bad as it wears off almost instantly. The animation times in bringing all the defenses back up at once are a bit annoying in the middle of a fight, though. You usually get one up, then muff the second and trigger the third.
La Pucelle/Virtue
PERC Supporter
La Pucelle (BS/SR)
Miseria Bella (Sonic/Dark)
Wrangler Annie (SS/Elec)
Coldsmoke (Ice/Dark)
Saber Maid (BS/Regen)
and others...
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I suppose that's about it. I've noticed Carnies can mez through practiced brawler, but that's not too bad as it wears off almost instantly. The animation times in bringing all the defenses back up at once are a bit annoying in the middle of a fight, though. You usually get one up, then muff the second and trigger the third.
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I think one quick fix to SR is to make the toggle animations interruptible, ala the Build Up powers and Dark Embrace.
Then add +res and +acc. Assuming the 3 toggles are left in, then an endurance discount count be implemented.
For what it's worth, could I just add my plaintive wish that Elude be returned to a toggle power when the 'proper' SR changes are done?
I know that as a click power it is more in line with other Lv38 scrapper powers such as Unstoppable and MoG, but I for one preferred it as a toggle - combined with the other +Def powers it was like a nice unique phase-shift + travel power rolled into one.
Not that I hold out hope of course - I think that the majority will prefer it as a click power, which is fair enough, but I at least feel better now having said my piece
Yii...
Actually Weirdbeard the dev said the streak-breaker code worked on both mobs and heroes. so in effect sr and every other hero is going to get hit even when defense is maxed, whether from the random 5% chance of the mob or from the streakbreaker kicking in because the mobs are missing you. supposedly low occurence but still a gauranteed hit. and at the higher levels you can expect those hits to be one-shot-kills if you don't have any resistance to the damage. red bosses take 3/4 of my hp with a hit at level 31, my defense is not maxed out yet so it occcurs often enough i need to keep respites stocked in my inspiration slots, but as the levels get higher, i can only see the damage increasing from the mobs since their damage and our hp don't scale the same. in the near future for my character those occasional hits will be one shot kills. so defense is an all or nothing game and while withthe numbers it's weighted in our favor, we can't be lucky all the time. we will get hit gauranteed, how do we deal with it other than a hospital trip? sr has nothing inherent to prevent it.
his post is here http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...v=#Post1132750
sorry about the link looking so bad, i don't know how to make it look better, this is not my forte.
Shonsu lvl 31 spines/super reflexes
OP:
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5. A well slotted Elude completely negates the purpose of the entire rest of the SR line. Once you have Elude, and you have it slotted with recharge and defense, every other SR power becomes useless. Satori
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States:
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No - we're not done with Super Reflexes. It's still "on the list" of ongoing issues, but it's sort of on a back burner right now.
The number one priority is to get Expansion 2 live. After that, it's fixing the problem that the game is TOO easy post level 25ish (and AOE attacks just rule). Then I'll be returning to dear ole' SR. Promise.
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8 months later...
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o Changed Moment of Glory, Elude, and Light Form to have a Duration of 180 seconds and a base recharge time of 1000 seconds. This prevents these powers from being 'Permanent' PvP/PvE
We initially designed the last powers in the power sets for specific situations usually when the hero is in dire trouble. After launch, players soon realized that they could set these powers to permanent.
To a degree, we didnt mind, but it was a little worrisome. When players arent given meaningful choices in gameplay, the player eventually gets bored. Tic Tac Toe, for instance, is a game that is wonderfully entertaining until one gets bored of the choices that can be made. Fire and forget powers ones that could be turned on and forgotten certainly didnt hold true to this game design principle.
The biggest reason for this change, however, is that these powers were so far beyond every other power in each set. Once one attained a perma defensive power, the rest of the powers in the set became nearly irrelevant. Even worse, these powers significantly unbalanced the character in comparison to other Archetypes in PvE.
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I dont think Elude was changed for PVP reasons at all now, I use to believe that it was. But now its been said that jack is putting SR under the microscope because the other powers in the set arent powerful enough? Come to think of it I havent seen very many SR scrappers around paragon lately.
My Pre-Order Coh box.
My character in coh beta.
My character in a coh beta mission.
Total thread ressurection. It's like watching Thriller! 
Well it seems to me the Devs thought Elude was too powerful, but the rest of the set needed a little help. I admit I'm on the seat of my pants wondering what's going to happen to Donnybrook again.
The biggest issue with SR is that you almost *have* to min/max it in order to be effective. You have to know what to take and slot, and how, and when. It's very easy to mess it up and the set is very unforgiving.
The second biggest issue is too much investment for too little return. Taking seven powers and investing 30 slots should give me better than 60-something percent defense. With all of that I shouldn't have to dip into pool powers to keep up.
I'm only a level 30 MA/SR scrapper so I haven't gotten Elude yet... good for me I suppose because I don't know what it was like before. However the one thing I am concerned about (and I hope the devs look at) is the endurance drain problem. When I have Focused Fighting and Focused Senses toggled on, my endurance drains so quickly that I can't fight 3 even level minions without having to pop a blue candy. I have stamina 5 slotted with 30++ SO's in it and it barely seems to quell the drain hole my endurance seems to go through. I'd rather have the endurance issue looked at instead of perma-elude.
Moncton - 50 PB
Borealys II - 50 Storm/Rad Def.
Capt. United - 47 MA/SR Scr.
Storm Pegasus - 33 Storm/Elec Def.
Diamond Nights - 13 DB/SR Scr.
"Courage is not the absence of fear; it is the presence of fear, yet the will to go on."
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Threadmilling
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Now THAT'S some pretty damn hilarious unconcsious unintended IRONY!
Threadmilling (sic) typo, in a THREAD that's already been posted once word-for-word in the scrapper forums, before it was MILLED right on over into the general forums!
That slip made me chuckle a lot. Even though it's completely unintended and completely unrelated.