Sarrate

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Doom!

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Now with 6 days interest!

Happy birthday!

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You didn't really think it was a regular RWZ challenge did you?

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You know, for a second there... yeah, I kinda did.

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I see what you did there.

The most impressive part was at the beginning when you took off a massive chunk out of everything with just SC + FSC. I want to say it was ~1/4 a +4 boss' health. That's pretty crazy. Okay, doing it without any self heal or mitigation from your primary was also pretty incredible.

Let's see, to run that chain (FU/Focus/Slash) you'd need +313% rech in FU (rech in 2.904s), +142% in Focus (rech in 2.64s), and +102% in Slash (rech in 2.376s). You're more than fine for both Focus and Slash, but you've got a ways to go for Follow Up, almost 50% short. Having said that, right now the gap is only 0.386s.

I started to crunch out exactly how much of a dps difference there was between no gap and your current gap, but I don't have time to finish right now. I don't want to post incomplete, or worse in accurate, numbers.

Depending, on the difference, it may not even be worth it to try to close the gap. Either leaving the gap or subbing in another attack may suffice without compromising your build in other places. Others here are more experienced / thorough with their chain analysis anyways.

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I meant could you hit more then 3 on test.

Trying to determine if their fix was geometry or max target cap.

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Ahh, it's not a target cap change, I have hit 5 targets with it on Test. Besides, Castle confirmed it was a fix for the 'cone warp' due to movement:

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Fixed a bug where cones could hit significantly more enemies than intended.

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Could we get some clarification on what, exactly, this means? Were cone powers hitting more than the target cap, cones being a larger size than intended, the 'cone warp' due to movement?

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The 'cone warp' due to movement.

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Source

Now I remember something else about the fight - not everyone was softcapped by themselves (I think we had 2 Invulns, 3 SR and 3 DAs), so we had everyone who wasn't bring a tray full of purples. We ran out of purples before she went down, which doomed that attempt. (She wasn't even close, so retrying it would have been pointless.)

Ghost Widow is problematic to an all Scrapper team for a couple reasons:

1) Dark Regen - I believe this is a 10% heal per target. While some people have soloed her as an AV, it would be worse with 8 Scrappers because not only is she a +4 in the STF (higher tohit floor) but it's also an AoE, so each time she uses it she has more chances to hit someone.

2) Soul Storm - The effects of this power (death) are well known, but the other wrinkle is that it's a 10ft AoE. Same with Dark Regen, it has a higher chance of snagging someone than if you were just solo. (I can't remember if Black Hole was AoE or not...) With those Scrappers dead & running back, that's lost dps/time which gives her more chances to hit with Dark Regen and Soul Storm.

(I believe both of the powers have a 45s recharge.)

All of those powers are evadable with enough defense - I've tanked her (as a Tank) many times without any outside source of extra mez protection and been fine. It's just a gamble, though.

It'd be possible to kill her without temps, you'd just be pretty deep in debt to Lady Luck at the end.

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I guess I'm unfamiliar with this whole issue. If I recall correctly, Shadow Maul and its cousin, Sands of Mu, look like they're limited to 5 targets in City of Data; I've never hit more than 5 myself -- nor met anyone in-game who expected more than 5. "Oooh, all five hit!" is sometimes bragged in team chat.

I also have missed any references (outside of Shadow Maul discussions) to an upcoming fix/change/nerf to cones, either Dark Melee only or to all cones gamewide.

Can you direct me to the discussion of said change?

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Release Notes for 19.20090612.0 - 6/16/09 (Test)
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Fixed a bug where cones could hit significantly more enemies than intended.

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That is to address 'cone warping' as Dersk posted about here. I gave it a brief whirl on Test, and I could still hit multiple mobs easily with SM. I might not hit as many as I do as frequently, but if if you're aware of the cone angle/size, you'll still be hitting 3 without trouble. If you stood flatfooted without repositioning, then you'll won't notice any difference whatsoever.

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Could you hit more then 3 at any point?

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Yep (that screenshot is around I13 iirc). Most times, the key (even on Test now) is movement. If you just stand in one place while surrounded, then you won't hit be landing any fatty mauls. When aiming cones I tend to move around a lot and aim to hit as many as I can. Hitting 5 used to be very rare, but it was no longer nearly as hard to do when the cone was extended to 7ft.

[edit: Yeah, I know, Romans are easy mode for melee cones. They prefer melee and are small, so you can squeeze a lot of them in very little area.]

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I guess I'm unfamiliar with this whole issue. If I recall correctly, Shadow Maul and its cousin, Sands of Mu, look like they're limited to 5 targets in City of Data; I've never hit more than 5 myself -- nor met anyone in-game who expected more than 5. "Oooh, all five hit!" is sometimes bragged in team chat.

I also have missed any references (outside of Shadow Maul discussions) to an upcoming fix/change/nerf to cones, either Dark Melee only or to all cones gamewide.

Can you direct me to the discussion of said change?

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Release Notes for 19.20090612.0 - 6/16/09 (Test)
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Fixed a bug where cones could hit significantly more enemies than intended.

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That is to address 'cone warping' as Dersk posted about here. I gave it a brief whirl on Test, and I could still hit multiple mobs easily with SM. I might not hit as many as I do as frequently, but if if you're aware of the cone angle/size, you'll still be hitting 3 without trouble. If you stood flatfooted without repositioning, then you'll won't notice any difference whatsoever.

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You had help you cheated....

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We tried to be sporting about it and let the mobs have extra help too... The villains, however, were not very sporting about what help they brought.

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Yea, Invincibility and Tough Hide does not give anything to melee, ranged and AoE. Really makes it tough for invul to go with the positional. Its the reason why I went for the Typed Def. It stacks nicely. So with invul you can get 25-35 resistance to Fire/cold/Neg/Eng/Toxic w/ really nice typed defence to boot. Defensive with 1 mob engaged is 45.45 l/s, 42.32 Fire/cold and 31.70 neg/eng. With Invul Saturated and Soul Mastery debuff is a over kill but hey.

Nice thing about going with high positional is you get that against psi. I rely on the positional and darkest night for Psi and they are trival.

Devilprince.

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That is a very nice bonus, cinsidering Invul's Psi def/resist

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Note: Not all psi attacks have a positional component. Mind Control and Illusion Control powers are notorious for this.

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I ran an all Scrapper Positron TF once, it was me and 2 other Scrappers

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We started with a full team of 8 (it dwindled to 5 or so by the end). You cheated!

Yeah, I've been on an all Scrapper STF too. It was went pretty well except for a few trouble spots:

1) Silver Mantis wiped us once. (I believe she was lvl53.)
2) There were many deaths on the Patrons, but doable separated. (Mako/BS, Scirocco, Ghost Widow.)
3) We couldn't kill GW without temps. (First fight we used them.)
4) Lord Recluse. *shiver* Took us 1 attempt to learn what not to do, then more 2 attempts to wipe out the towers / him. I Unstoppable tanked him twice during the tower phase. (We used temps here too for to take down as many towers as possible while Unstoppable was up... and the extra regen for me.)

It took us a while to finish (I want to say 2-2.5 hours) and there were plenty of deaths (d'oh), but it was a very unique experience, to say the least! It was far less painful than the all Scrapper Positron I was on. That one was freaking evil.


[edit: Wait, are we (EB / Des) talking about the same STF? *raises an eyebrow* We certainly didn't herd the AVs, I've got demos of those fights. :P Actually, I think I took demos of all the AV fights.]

Yes. (Scroll down.) When in doubt, Dev Digest it up. :P

Also, pictures.

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2) Why is +acc such the big deal in PvP builds i've seen, or is it just a by-product of another goal when forming a PvP build?

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Keep in mind that your base tohit vs other players is 50%. It's basically like trying tohit +3 mobs. Now tack on any extra defense and Elusivity on top of that.

Before you can do anything to your opponent you must be able to hit them.

The very least I'd like to see done to Gauntlet is:

<ul type="square">[*]Increase the radius of low tier attacks. Powers like Barrage and Jab have a 3 foot radius. That is ludicrously small for it to ever hit 5 targets. (Those are also powers that Tankers can't skip in favor of larger radius attacks.) Barrage in particular should be raised due to its new longer recharge / higher damage.

I think the minimum radius for Gauntlet should be about 5ft. That would be big enough to actually hit 5 targets with it if they're close, but small enough it wouldn't disrupt the current standard of quick attacks having a small radius and slow attacks having much larger ones.
[*]Give is some form of graphical effect. I wouldn't want it to be anything large or flashy, but something subtle to give us some way to tell which targets Gauntlet is/isn't hitting. An effect along the lines of Taunt's graphic would be good. This would not only let us know its working, but give us a way to actually leverage it. Right now, it's completely invisible. (This addition would only apply to single target attacks, and not AoEs.)[/list]
I still think the AoE component of Gauntlet is a weak inherent compared to auras. aoes, and Taunt, but it would make it more serviceable without gigantic changes.

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No, the draw for the elemental weapons is part of the animation, not something separate.

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And the animation change actually added time to the mallets - they used to be 1.17s each.

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Nope, that was added to the end of the animations, not the beginning. Their animations were terminating too soon. (I personally thought they looked perfectly natural before, but it's over and done with.)

[edit: Spelling...]

There are two (main) things to remember about taunt mechanics:

1) taunt effects are a gigantic threat modifier (1000x per second of remaining duration). They also add threat when they pulse, so even if you're not dealing damage, they're still generating threat.
2) in order to steal aggro, you need to have double the threat of the current target.

This means that if the Tanker goes in first, it will be harder for you to steal aggro from him, and vice versa. It also means that your higher damage output will generate a lot more threat than a normal Tanker. WP Tanks will have a lot more trouble holding aggro off you since AAO is pumping out 13.5x as much threat.

I can, and have, held aggro off Shield Scrappers with my WP, but it requires that I be on my game using a well slotted Taunt liberally. Nonchalant Tankers won't pull that off.


[edit: Forgot to mention specifically that the +dmg makes the problem worse. Scrappers have a higher base damage and is magnified by a larger amount than an equivalent Tanker, causing the damage (and thus threat generation) to scale faster for the Scrapper.]

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Very good! woot! can i ask what you did about the towers? the next time i run a all def MoSTF, im thinking of skipping all the towers and going str8 to LR. Or atleast just taking out green tower.

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You absolutely will not kill him with the green tower up. It gives him 50% more MaxHP (more, but it's capped), a periodic 5,xxx heal, and 2000% regen. That's 0 to full in 12 seconds (not counting the heal)...

The other towers you may be able to get around, but I suspect the Orange (Yellow, whatever) and Red Towers would be very problematic. Orange caps Recluse's def, so unless your group is packing enormous +tohit, you won't be able to hit him reliably. (I have to double check the +tohit buff cap in game.) Red you can kill him through, but he will be at 100% s/l/e res, rending those damage types and damage debuffs ineffective.

You may be able to get around those to a certain degree with a cager(s), but I'm pretty sure he'd still get a 15s tick every time you recage them. (You can't reapply a cage until it drops, right?)


(Don't forget to have the group rocking at 75% def at all times to compensate for the Blue Tower!)

Hmm.... I'm not sure if this is significant, but check out CoD:

Controller Lingering Radiation
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* RunSpeed, SpeedJumping, FlySpeed -0.75 for 30s
* RechargeTime, JumpHeight -75% for 30s [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]
* Max RunSpeed -3.5 for 30s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
* Regeneration -5 for 30s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]
* -6.92 Regeneration for 30s If target is a player [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]

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(Defender is identical except for -8.65 regen in PvP.)

Corruptor Lingering Radiation
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* RunSpeed -60% for 30s
* RechargeTime, JumpHeight -60% for 30s [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]
* Max RunSpeed -3.5 for 30s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
* SpeedJumping, FlySpeed -0.6 for 30s
* Regeneration -5 for 30s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]
* -6.92 Regeneration for 30s If target is a player [Ignores Enhancements &amp; Buffs]

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Note the difference in how RunSpeed is being debuffed, instead of it being displayed as -0.6, it's being displayed as -60%. I'm not positive what the significance of that is (if any), but considering that's the only real difference between them (other than a slightly lower value) it makes me suspicious.

At any rate, I've seen LR slow down mobs, but not to the molasses pace of other slows. (I don't have its slow enhanced.) Out of curiosity, what were you fighting, or was it nothing in particular / everything shrugged it off?

The Blue Tower offers Recluse +30% tohit, so 45% def won't be enough. If you want to floor him (to 10.5%) you'll need to be sitting at 75% def. Bring either def buffers and/or purples (I suggest t2 or greater if you can).

Unfortunately his build is pretty poor on end management.

He only has ~3.32 eps recov (adding Accolades), with only 2.07 eps left after toggles are taken into account. Speaking of which, of his three toggles (Tough, Weave, Maneuvers), only one has any end reduc at all (21.75%). The attack slotting (which burns far more than toggles, esp at that level of recharge) is exceptionally light; 33% in Hack/Headsplitter, 18.5% in Whirling Sword. (Parry and Disembowel are good, though.)

I expect it would have severe endurance issues in prolonged fights.

(For the foci of the build, though, it's exceptional.)

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Someone with Super Strength could make an origami crane out of a car before hitting you with it, too. So why not? Because sometimes I just want to hit you with a car, that's why.

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Good grief, can you imagine the cast time on that beast?!

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I think Gauntlet is the cornerstone of all Tankers.









































Wut?

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Nice.

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I never said it didn't and I really wish you would stop twisting your posts to imply that I did (not the first time I've asked you to stop doing that I might add). I just said that it wasn't *essential* or to use your words, "the cornerstone" of SM, which implies your build will suffer horribly without it. That might be your experience. That isn't mine. Having used said tool (even when I needed it no less) and seeing how easily I could replace it doing the same content (in this case an ITF). That's why I say "a good tool" and not "an essential tool" ... by and large.

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I honestly wasn't trying to twist your words, put words in your mouth, or anything of the sort. The only thing I was trying to get across is why I felt it was such an important power. If you took it any other way, I apologize, it wasn't my intent.

(No, it's not the best tool for all content, such as the ITF. In others such as psi enemies to sets with a psi hole, Vanguard, or AE critters it'd be worth its weight in gold. I highly value it's flexibility, which is one reason I personally place it in such high regard.)

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I have played and currently play with both and I'd be willing to bet you that I can kill as fast or faster with my SM, as you can with your SS through the same content. Would you agree if that were true, that would make your FS debate sort of moot?

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So I just spent 2-2.5 hours testing my Fire/SM vs Ice/SS Tankers. (That includes time to make the missions, rerun times I overwrote demos, Hasten/Rage resetting, and retakes when the RNG decided to be a jerkhacker and spawn bosses mid mission.)

[u]The Tanks[u]
Aarrora (Fire/SM): ~58% rech in st attacks, ~20-30% rech in Tremor, ~40% global rech, 1 FF: +rech in Tremor.

Eis Geist (Ice/SS): ~58% rech in st attacks, ~30% rech in FS, ~20-25% global rech.

Aarrora is far more heavily IOed out than EG (who only has 4-5 sets of CI total). This means Aa can last longer during these tests with fewer interruptions (less need for EA, for example). This can really slow EG down.

[u]The Tests[u]
**_RiktiBossOnly*.cohdemo - This test I ran to the boss at the end of the map and defeated him. I timed from the time I started to actually fight, not travel time. I'm basically getting a frame of reference to compare against AoE. (One of EG's tests I took out a Guardian to prevent healing before I engaged the boss. I didn't start timing till I turned to fight the boss.) Test 1 is with Hasten up, Test 2 is with Hasten down.

**_RiktiBossAll*.cohdemo - This is the same map as the previous test; I just herded everything to the end and fought everything there. Again, I didn't start timing until I started to fight, herd time not included. Test 1 is with Hasten up, Test 2 is with Hasten down.

**_BoreaSimulation*.cohdemo - This is basically a map used in one of Boreas's missions with a boss at the end. I started recording from the moment I started moving until I killed the last mob on the map.

Note 1: I only used SM and SS for damage, so no BA, FE, Pyre, or Icicles. (I used Consume once, negligible impact on kill speed.)
Note 2: The fourth Borea Simulation for Aarrora is me disregarding the above. I just wanted to see how much FA + Pyre sped her up. Answer: A LOT.

[u]The Results[u]
Demos / Missions used for testing

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> Aarrora Eis Geist
Boss1 52s 48s
Boss2 54s 52s
All1 52s boss dead 51s boss dead
1m21s map clear 30s minions dead
1:01 map clear
All2 1:13 boss dead 52s boss dead
1:30 map clear 36s minions dead
1:05 map clear
B Sim1 3:48 3:58
B Sim2 4:14 4:45
B Sim3 3:49 4:20
B Sim4 2:51 </pre><hr />

In the controlled tests (RiktiBossOnly* and RiktiBossAll*) SS equals or beats the pants off SM pretty handily. Minions and Lieutenants drop much quicker, even dropping noticeably sooner than the boss. Interestingly, Termor didn't slow down Aarrora's st offense as much as I planned, but I'm guessing that is due to leveraging the FF proc allowing things like Seismic Smash to cycle faster.

The Borea missions were a much bigger headache for me. Even using the same map, EG kept getting unfavorable spawns (bosses mid mission, twice, ungh), not to mention enemies that don't clump nearly as well as during Aarrora's runs.

It also exposed a result I wasn't expecting, namely that SS's long term performance varies depending on mission length. Basically, if a mission ends before a Rage crash, then SS got 120s of heightened performance for free. If the end of a mission is around a Rage crash, then SS has to pay for it. The first Borea test I managed to finish it before the second crash. The last two tests I had to eat the second crash. It turns out the mission length I chose was right at that threshold.

Despite the duration of my testing, I'd say there were a lot of flaws. Namely:
*) Unequal slotting
*) FF proc contaminating results
*) Small sample size
*) Travel time (SJ vs Fly)
*) Very narrow in scope. Not enough map variety to get a good simulation of CoH's range of content. This also includes maps that are more densely spawned, reducing travel time (less wasted Rage) and easier to herd. The map I chose was spread out diluting SS's AoE advantage.

It was an okay start, but certainly not something I'd call conclusive. I may revisit it later, but it'll likely be at least later in the weekend due to previous obligations. Feel free to test the missions yourself.

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Explain to me in what way exactly would HC having k/d instead of k/b, turns it from a useless power to overpowering the whole primary. In game terms please.

Or more precisely ... how does it make it any different then Stone Melee currently is?

(and I notice you still haven't mentioned the continuing differences that would exist between HC and Fault ... sigh)

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It would be a lot stronger because it would bring a lot more reliable mitigation to the table. It could be dangerous for Invuln or WP to use it because it would spread out a spawn making their mob fueled auras much less effective. It would reduce the effectiveness of Fire, DA, Shield, Ice, and Stone by knocking things out of their damage auras (or +dmg) auras, slowing kill speed (not to mention aoes cones). This applies to teams as well which use AoEs or AoE debuffs. Easiest example of what I'm talking about: scatter from a bad stormie.

When it's knockdown it's no longer situational, it becomes "use whenever you want" power with no strings attached. That's a lot more powerful.

Also, I'd say that SM and SS are both in the upper eschelon of Tanker secondary effectiveness, making such a boost in effectiveness to one of those sets would be unwise. In abstract terms, if Castle wants Tanker sets to have a performance between X and Y, and SS is very close to Y, it's performance is high, but within the acceptable range. There is no reason to buff it (considerably) closer to, or beyond Y.

(Note: I did say that Fault was on the extreme end as it is. Well, Stone Melee in general is very control heavy. I'm flabbergasted SS is still MAG4, considering the change to TF.)

(Yes, I'm aware of the rech/end differences between the two.)

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*EDIT* Sarrate: Instead of going around and around as usual let's try a different tact (*gasp*). Since you agree Hand Clap sucks, how would YOU change it?

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Honestly, I'm not sure. Whatever change is made, it would have to not violate the 'cottage rule.' In other words, it can't change a power's function. (See Frozen Aura still sleeps.) So, Hand Clap would have to still have to have some form of knock* and stun. There are a lot of options:

Always knockdown / shorter stun
Always knockdown, chance for knockback / (?length) stun
Chance for knockdown/back / longer stun

That's just trying to fiddle with the two effects that would have to stay no matter how HC was changed. There is a possibility of adding another secondary effect (almost positively not damage, possibly a small -res?), but I'm not sure what would be acceptable.

I haven't made any suggestions because I'm hard to please myself. :P

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If it is just like a bank mission I'd be willing to bet on me the first two, three or five times or so. Once the heroes realize what they are up against and decide to organize and work together we'd have a good fight and my team of 8 villains likely would get overwhelmed. But those first few times when people just lunge at my armies individually we'd butcher through heroes by the hundreds.

Sure, click on the doors to City Hall. There are 6 Thug/Storm MMs setting a trap for ya

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And if we blow up the Arachnos flier that got you there?

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Ouroboros...

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We go back in time to just before you attacked? Then you try to go back before we go back, etc., etc. until someone hits their tether and gets absorbed into the timestream.

So there.

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*blinks*

...I hate time travel sometimes!