I think the main problem with Handclap is it sits in the same set as FootStomp. Many, myself included, look at the two powers as redundant with FS being the superior of the two.
It is also counter productive to the standard methodology of tanking that is spoken of on the forums (Gather as many around you as close as possible for maximum results from your supporting team members).
Personally I have no need to send mobs flying away from me. I would love to see it changed to a knockdown but you are right in that it would ruin the uniqueness of the power.
I wonder if they can make a -kb IO...
handclap cant be as effective as fault simply because there would be little reason to ever play sm. tremor pales to foostomp...PALES by a large margin. fault's awesomeness is the justifcation for sm being a high end set.
handclap is fine as is. give it a better stun and use it after a controller roots. bam - ghetto hold.
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handclap cant be as effective as fault simply because there would be little reason to ever play sm. tremor pales to foostomp...PALES by a large margin. fault's awesomeness is the justifcation for sm being a high end set.
handclap is fine as is. give it a better stun and use it after a controller roots. bam - ghetto hold.
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I don't think making Hanclap work *exactly* like Fault would infringe on Stone in the slightest. After all, the devs used Seismic Smash as an example to justify upgrading KO Blow back in the day to what it is now.
Having said that, Hanclap has always been a flavor power in my opinion. It looks cool, but rarely is as useful as its corresponding powers in the other Tanker primaries. Just making it go from Knockback to Knockdown would be an improvement (if thematically non-sensical). Personally I would leave it as is and add a damage component (minor) into it. It would still be a lightweight power, but it would add the second damaging AOE that SS could really use.
As an AoE survivability power, it holds no appeal to me. Enemies either get knocked back, out of range of feeding my taunt aura power, or they get stunned, also wandering out of range.
Even if it had damage and was made into something like a cone attack, I have a full attack chain already on all of my SSers.
The only reason I'd take the power would be if it had something like a large resistance debuff and no knockback.
It's a shame the power is what it is. HC screams "super strong!" but most people simply don't want or need it mechanically.
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Without a pocket immobing troller, the KB annoys me, as a pure disorient? I'd be more ok with it.
I can see handclap's usefulness more red side than blue, what with Brutes being more squishy than tanks. Personally, I don't use it - but I really don't care for SS as a set to begin with. I'm thinking it would be pretty good mitigation for an /Energy Aura Brute (for example) slotted up with taunt/rech/end. Granted, you can only use Energy Drain on mobs that are around you, but a taunt-enriched Hand Clap should bring them running right back to you. Before anyone says anything, YES... I tank with my Brutes and do just fine thankyouverymuch. As far as Tanks go, maybe at the lower "squishy" levels it'd be an ok choice, but generally most Tanker primaries are good enough to not need Knockback mitigation (Note: Knockdown/Knockup is always a great thing).
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
I'm a firm believer in the idea that the KB magnitude of all melee sets should be lowered to the point that you will always do knockdown to even level mobs and above and then if you want to do knockback you can slot for it. For the folks that are very slot conscious I could even see them adding a knockback inspiration that way you can effectively ramp up the power at will.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
They can buff SS after they nerf Rage. As it stands, SS is an awfully powerful set for any number of reasons, and not really in need of improvement.
In all honesty, while I feel that Handclap is definately a weak power, the set as a whole is not weak. I'm torn as to whether a set having a "weak" power in a set is acceptable for balance, or whether balance comes from making each power equal to every other.
I think that in order to make the sets play dramatically different, we need things like the difference between HC and Fault (or Tremor, I forget the names) to keep things interesting.
Wow smell the SS envy.
How many times you want them to nerf Rage?
I almost think changing the k/b to k/d would make the set overpowered, with two very good melee damage mitigation aoe's.
I would still use it as is if I could fit it in, but it ends up being that or taunt on most of my builds.
If the nifty non-leveling/post-50 character expansion Castle hinted at includes choosing more powers after the current lvl cap, I would take h/c in it's current state, it's one of the most fun tanker powers.
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If the nifty non-leveling/post-50 character expansion Castle hinted
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Woah woah. Where did he hint that?
I've seen this:
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At the high levels, rewards for these moral choices will be found in new PVP, PVE and Co-op zones. Accomplishments will lead to rewards that will significantly distinguish level 50 characters from one another.One such reward is the Universal Enhancement Slots. Ten Universal Enhancement Slots are available to be earned in the expansion, and each one has the potential of adding significant power to the character, essentially bringing them to a hypothetical "Level 60" once they have earned all ten slots.
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Which could easily fit that description, but as I unterstand it, more power picks are off the table.
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Yeah I thought it was extra enhancement slots as well, not powers.
Ace: How would that make SS any different from Stone then, which currently does have two AOE KD powers? You think Stone is overpowered?
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Ace: How would that make SS any different from Stone then, which currently does have two AOE KD powers? You think Stone is overpowered?
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Because while the KD is nice, Tremor's damage isn't even worth mentioning. As compared to Footstomp's, which is much better.
Long a proponent of reducing the KB mag to 0.67 and letting people slot for it. But I also agree that doing that to Handclap would make SS too good. One awesome aoe stun, one awesome aoe damage, and Rage? vs Stone's one awesome aoe stun, worthless aoe damage, and... Build Up?
Meant slots generally, but in a post I think is now deleted where he was replying to the GR expansion he said something "nifty" was being worked on in that vein. Very few picked up on his post that day and now I can't find it. Ah well.
And Kruunch, I don't have anything in front of me, but FS quicker cast and slightly higher damage along w/ rage are better then tremor, add k/d to h/c and ss would make a run at Ice for tanker control set.
I'd love it changed to k/d, I'm leary of Castle coming into the area to take a look at something (though grateful on behalf of macers). 
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Ace: How would that make SS any different from Stone then, which currently does have two AOE KD powers? You think Stone is overpowered?
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Well Stone does have it's relatively slow recharge and doesn't have a self buff like Rage.
Still I don't really think that changing from KB to KD on a power that most folks don't take anyway will really overpower the set. If anything it will just make the power more useful. Especially for the Anti-Taunt crowd.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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And Kruunch, I don't have anything in front of me, but FS quicker cast and slightly higher damage along w/ rage are better then tremor, add k/d to h/c and ss would make a run at Ice for tanker control set.
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Tremor casts at an eternal 3.3, Footstomp at a less eternal 2.1
44.49 vs 63.17, smashing
Doesn't anyone think they shoud reduce the current recharge and end cost of HC?
Reducing the KB to KD would be wonderful but a very doubtful fix.
I'm trying to get a real fix done, and that involves the ridiculous 30s recharge and 13 endurance usage.
Oh, sorry Clouded. Easy to get distracted. Yea, all for your fix. Anything to bring parity 
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Ace: How would that make SS any different from Stone then, which currently does have two AOE KD powers? You think Stone is overpowered?
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Because while the KD is nice, Tremor's damage isn't even worth mentioning. As compared to Footstomp's, which is much better.
Long a proponent of reducing the KB mag to 0.67 and letting people slot for it. But I also agree that doing that to Handclap would make SS too good. One awesome aoe stun, one awesome aoe damage, and Rage? vs Stone's one awesome aoe stun, worthless aoe damage, and... Build Up?
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While I agree Footstomp is better then Tremor, let's not over exagerate the differences. Footstomp has about 40% more damage (not exactly EPIC at the scales we're talking about here) and a faster animation. They both have about the same radius iirc.
And HC would always play second fiddle to Fault due to having a 50% longer recharge, costing more endurance, and being a cone versus a true AOE.
Kind of would make it even in my book.
Currently Fault is a great power in the Stone line. Hand Clap is quite possibly the worst power in all the tanker secondaries that I can think of off the top of my head.
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And HC would always play second fiddle to Fault due to having a 50% longer recharge, costing more endurance, and being a cone versus a true AOE.
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You sure it's a cone? I took the info from CoD that lists the power as an AoE, 15 foot radius. I'm not home so I cannot get the power ingame.
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And HC would always play second fiddle to Fault due to having a 50% longer recharge, costing more endurance, and being a cone versus a true AOE.
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You sure it's a cone? I took the info from CoD that lists the power as an AoE, 15 foot radius. I'm not home so I cannot get the power ingame.
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Yea, CoD says PBAoE. Not sure where cone came from.
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And Kruunch, I don't have anything in front of me, but FS quicker cast and slightly higher damage along w/ rage are better then tremor, add k/d to h/c and ss would make a run at Ice for tanker control set.
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I honestly don't see that as a bad thing. IMHO, melee control should be the one overarching goal of all of the tanker offensive sets. It should be balanced against the offensive damage offered by the set to offer a spectrum of control:damage ratio.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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Wow smell the SS envy.
How many times you want them to nerf Rage?
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I'd like to seem them remove the crash and make perma-rage impossible, or leave the perma-bility as is and increase the effects of the crash.
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While I agree Footstomp is better then Tremor, let's not over exagerate the differences. Footstomp has about 40% more damage (not exactly EPIC at the scales we're talking about here) and a faster animation. They both have about the same radius iirc.
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Note: That leaves Foot Stomp with a base DPA 2.17 times as high as Tremor. With slots and Rage, the difference is 3 fold. That's not insignificant. Due to Tremor's longer animation, their cycle times close as recharge increases.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>+Rech Tremor Foot Stomp
0% 17.3 22.1
25% 14.5 18.1
50% 12.63 15.43
75% 11.3 13.53
100% 10.3 12.1
125% 9.52 10.99
150% 8.9 10.1
175% 8.39 9.37
200% 7.97 8.77
225% 7.61 8.25
250% 7.3 7.81
275% 7.03 7.43
300% 6.8 7.1</pre><hr />
Even without any +recharge at all, Tremor still doesn't cycle anywhere near fast enough to compensate for the DPA advantage Foot Stomp has.
[edit: It doesn't even compensate before Rage is applied, mind you.]
I have Tremor and I thoroughly enjoy the power; in large groups I'd go so far as to say it's a large part of my enjoyment of the set. Even so, I'm not blind to how it pales in comparison to Foot Stomp.
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And HC would always play second fiddle to Fault due to having a 50% longer recharge, costing more endurance, and being a cone versus a true AOE.
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Hand Clap is an AoE, just like Fault. The only difference is Hand Clap is a PBAoE while Fault has a short 20ft range.
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I agree, Hand Clap is a pretty useless power that I don't think I'd ever recommend taking. Even so, you'd have to come up with a pretty good reason to buff one of the stronger Tanker sets. Personally, I think Fault is on the extreme edge of power performance. With just regular slotting, it can perma stun minions, stun lieutenants half the time, and knock everything down (bosses included). When you start injecting high orders of recharge, it's possible to stun bosses.
That's not something that should be handed out lightly.
I'm one of those player that takes HC in the lower levels when playing a SS Tank or Brute. I find the power does a great job providing some breathing room when all else fails.
This power gets a poor reputation due to it's +5 mag Knockback that most forumites seem to loathe. Along with this KB the power has a 30s recharge and sucks 13 endurance (prior to slotting), which seems excessive.
The closest analog to HC is Fault from Stone Melee.
Here is a quick run down from City of Data...
Fault:
<ul type="square">[*]Available at Level 8[*]15 foot radius, PBAoE[*]2.1s cast time[*]10.192 endurance cost[*]20s recharge[*]+0.67 Knockback[*]+9.536s Stun (mag 2) PvE only[*]+9.536s Stun (mag 1) (50% chance) PvE only[*]+13.5s Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob[/list]
Handclap:
<ul type="square">[*]Available at Level 6[*]15 foot radius, PBAoE[*]1.23s cast[*]13 endurance[*]30s recharge[*]+9.536s Stun (mag 2) PvE only[*]+9.536s Stun (mag 1) (50% chance) PvE only[*]+5.193 Knockback PvE only[*]+13.5s Taunt (mag 4)[/list]
I'm suggesting that Handclap be revised by lowering the endurance to 10 and recharge to 15-20 seconds. I wouldn't mind the KB being reduced but I think it would take away the uniqueness and feel of the Power.