I don't use Hand Clap very often, but when I do it's usually for the knockback. I'll sometimes use it to move enemies around, like knocking them into a debuff's radius.
I like Hand Clap and I wish I could take it earlier in my build (but not too early, that Accuracy penalty hurts before SO levels), but it's a skippable power and I think most players like it that way. It's like the dilemma the devs faced with Invulnerability's passive powers- players wanted them buffed, but not so much they felt they had to take them.
Kill the knockback, and replace it with a Mag 2 stun.
Sigh.
I've already stipulated that FS is better then Tremor. I disagree to what *scale* it's better. I use both on two different L50 Tankers and they both serve the same function (exactly) and they both (roughly) do the samething with regards to the attack chain of each set. Footstomp doesn't add so much extra damage that SS kills notably faster then SM (at least in my experience) so in that regard I consider them roughly equal (the animation difference being the key difference for me).
If you are going to add in Rage into the equation, then you'd need to add Build Up on the SM side, in which case the damage roughly balances (mind you I said *roughly*) out over the course of one Rage cycle (including the crash penalty).
I disagree that replacing k/b with k/d in Hand Clap would do anything amazing for Super Strength. Certainly not the over-the-top comments that have been flying around here. Simply, it would take a fairly useless power that is virtually never taken (or never taken for the long haul) and replace it with a power that is uncommonly taken (and/or placed in heavy second builds). Basically it would make SS about the same as SM in most regards (better AOE in Footstomp, better single target damage in SM ... both having the same amount of mitigation .... shrug).
And keep in mind this is only my opinion (before this turns into a City of Numbers fest ... again) based on how each set plays and feels to me. Certainly very subjective.
Re: Hand Clap: Looking it up again, you're right it is a PBAOE. My mistake (could of sworn it was a cone the last time I used it (which admittedly was years ago lol)).
[ QUOTE ]
It is also counter productive to the standard methodology of tanking that is spoken of on the forums (Gather as many around you as close as possible for maximum results from your supporting team members).
[/ QUOTE ]
You know if you use Taunt they run right back to you when you knock them away.
Most AOE's aren't so limited that hand clap will knock all of them out of an AoE's range.
When they are on their backs they aren't attacking.
Most melee characters have more def/res at range then they do within melee range.
For thematic reasons, the wind gust of the hand clap is what is knocking the enemy away - it isn't just knocking them over - it is blowing them back.
If you are really worried about dispersing a group, you could strategically place yourself when you use the power to knock opponents into a corner or up against a wall.
I just wish knockback did damage
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You know if you use Taunt they run right back to you when you knock them away.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and I also know the magnitude of both the Gauntlet taunt and stun in the power. On a good team the time for the mobs to get back up, dust off, and run back into range of me is longer than it would have taken for the team to finish them off.
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Most AOE's aren't so limited that hand clap will knock all of them out of an AoE's range.
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I would disagree with "Most". Many would have there effectiveness reduced once the mobs scattered. Having played a Warshade I know how much they like very tight groups of mobs. Scattering also reduces the effects of cones.
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When they are on their backs they aren't attacking.
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This is where the power becomes redundant with Footstomp. With FS I can keep the mobs on their backs, next to me, and deal damage
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Most melee characters have more def/res at range then they do within melee range.
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Debatable but pointless when you are talking of tanks and aggro auras. For maximum aggro management I want the mobs well in my aura range as well as within range for as many Gauntlet based attacks as possible. If a Melee toon can not handle Melee damage then there is a serious problem.
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If you are really worried about dispersing a group, you could strategically place yourself when you use the power to knock opponents into a corner or up against a wall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Useless in an open world map. This also counters what I believe is a more important Tank strategy, namely turning the mobs away from your team to eliminate Cone damage. In an ideal position you end up on the far side of the group looking back at your team. Handclap would send the mobs into your squishies.
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I just wish knockback did damage
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While it would be nice and fit thematically I doubt Tanks would get much benefit.
/agree Calash
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I've already stipulated that FS is better then Tremor. I disagree to what *scale* it's better.
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Understood, I wasn't saying you didn't. I was disagreeing with your scale and provided my reasoning as to why.
(Btw, I like to explain why I take the stances I do so that people can either see where I'm coming from and/or point out any mistakes I may have made. So please don't misinterpret my longer posts as an attack - it's not my intent.)
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If you are going to add in Rage into the equation, then you'd need to add Build Up on the SM side, in which case the damage roughly balances (mind you I said *roughly*) out over the course of one Rage cycle (including the crash penalty).
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This is a fair request, as I did not count BU or Rage's crash before. So I'll count both this time (standard 3 SOs in each): Foot Stomp is still superior by 2.6 times.
(Rage provides superior +dmg over time compared to BU, even factoring in the crash. Don't forget the extra persistent +tohit, either.)
[ QUOTE ]
Simply, it would take a fairly useless power that is virtually never taken (or never taken for the long haul) and replace it with a power that is uncommonly taken (and/or placed in heavy second builds).
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I consider Fault to be a cornerstone power in Stone Melee. I don't see any reason Hand Clap wouldn't be elevated to the same status.
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And keep in mind this is only my opinion (before this turns into a City of Numbers fest ... again) based on how each set plays and feels to me. Certainly very subjective.
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My opinion, as a function of both experience and math (which I've tried to keep at a minimum), is the opposite.
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Kill the knockback, and replace it with a Mag 2 stun.
[/ QUOTE ]Where have you been? It already has mag 2 stun, with 50% chance of an extra mag 1. And there's no way in *hell* the devs would give a melee set a permable AoE mag 4 stun.
Also, I don't think changing it to KD is the proper solution. HC is one of those powers I will *always* favor flavor over function on. Every time you see the Super Strength hero (or villain) clap their hands together to create a shockwave, it sends their enemies flying. It doesn't just knock them on their butts.
This isn't to say, though, that I would be opposed to the knockback mag being reduced to, say, 2.6, instead of the current 5.2. The enemies would still be knocked away an appreciable distance for the flavor of the power, but not quite so far away (and if you're fighting purples, 2.6 is definitely going to be reduced to KD, if I remember the purple-patch's effects on KB right).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Considering it is essentially a sonic attack I think adding some -res to it would be a good idea, if not just adding damage to it like various NPCs with custom handclap get.
I'd really like to see a lunging punch attack that does good knockback ( think Shield Charge but single target and Haymaker strength) and why on earth do level 1 blasters get a better "super strength" power than all the powers of super strength combined ? (Power Push - good kb attack that any SS set SHOULD have).
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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why on earth do level 1 blasters get a better "super strength" power than all the powers of super strength combined ? (Power Push - good kb attack that any SS set SHOULD have).
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Because the players don't like that much knockback on a melee character.
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Considering it is essentially a sonic attack I think adding some -res to it would be a good idea
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That would be just about the only thing that would make the power attractive enough for me to take.
File it under 'N' for "Not Gonna Happen", though.
.
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Considering it is essentially a sonic attack I think adding some -res to it would be a good idea, if not just adding damage to it like various NPCs with custom handclap get.
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Somehow I don't think the idea of giving the tanker set with the best damage buff a -res power is going to fly anywhere but into the trash can.
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I've already stipulated that FS is better then Tremor. I disagree to what *scale* it's better.
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Understood, I wasn't saying you didn't. I was disagreeing with your scale and provided my reasoning as to why.
(Btw, I like to explain why I take the stances I do so that people can either see where I'm coming from and/or point out any mistakes I may have made. So please don't misinterpret my longer posts as an attack - it's not my intent.)
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If you are going to add in Rage into the equation, then you'd need to add Build Up on the SM side, in which case the damage roughly balances (mind you I said *roughly*) out over the course of one Rage cycle (including the crash penalty).
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a fair request, as I did not count BU or Rage's crash before. So I'll count both this time (standard 3 SOs in each): Foot Stomp is still superior by 2.6 times.
(Rage provides superior +dmg over time compared to BU, even factoring in the crash. Don't forget the extra persistent +tohit, either.)
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Simply, it would take a fairly useless power that is virtually never taken (or never taken for the long haul) and replace it with a power that is uncommonly taken (and/or placed in heavy second builds).
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I consider Fault to be a cornerstone power in Stone Melee. I don't see any reason Hand Clap wouldn't be elevated to the same status.
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And keep in mind this is only my opinion (before this turns into a City of Numbers fest ... again) based on how each set plays and feels to me. Certainly very subjective.
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My opinion, as a function of both experience and math (which I've tried to keep at a minimum), is the opposite.
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See, this is the third time I've heard you say that Fault is the cornerstone of Stone Melee.
I consider it the most skippable power in SM. And that's with using it on a migitation needed primary (Will Power). Fault just tends to be overkill in most circumstances. Useful certainly ... far from defining or a corner stone.
And saying that Hand Clap would be elevated to "defining" ability status by replacing k/b with k/d .... well we'll just have to agree to disagree.
P.S. - As we've done this circle a number of times ... Math doesn't accurately describe how the game should be played. Not an attack and not interpreting yours as one. Just tired of debating the game from the point of view of a calculator.
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See, this is the third time I've heard you say that Fault is the cornerstone of Stone Melee.
I consider it the most skippable power in SM. And that's with using it on a migitation needed primary (Will Power). Fault just tends to be overkill in most circumstances. Useful certainly ... far from defining or a corner stone.
P.S. - As we've done this circle a number of times ... Math doesn't accurately describe how the game should be played. Not an attack and not interpreting yours as one. Just tired of debating the game from the point of view of a calculator.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, going on your wish to talk about subjective interpretations of powers and how they feel: I completely agree with Sarrate's assessment of Fault's place within SM, and I find your interpretation to be that of a crazy person. It is not the only good thing about SM, to be sure, but it is an essential tool, especially on a "mitigation needed primary", as you say. I'll see your Willpower and raise you a Fire.
I've never considered Fault to be "overkill" in any situation I've ever encountered. I consider it a must have, must use power that keeps me and my team alive, whether that is achieved through the popcorn kD chain or the stacking stuns. I in fact credit Stone itself, and Fault in particular, with being the main reason that my Fire/Stone ever made it as far as he did without resorting to Tough to cover his mediocre resistances.
This seems to be where the disagreement about whether giving Handclap KD instead of KB would overpower it or not stems from. My experience has shown me that Fault is an immensely powerful, spawn altering tool. Handclap's KB is "balanced" if you want to call it that by Footstomp's greater damage (as demonstrated by Sarrate), when compared to the Fault/Tremor combination, not to mention faster cast times. Giving Handclap KD would give SS two relatively quick activating spawn jugglers, with greater damage thrown in. On top of Rage.
If you believe that Fault is overall "meh" within the set, then I can see why your opinion would vary.
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[ QUOTE ]
See, this is the third time I've heard you say that Fault is the cornerstone of Stone Melee.
I consider it the most skippable power in SM. And that's with using it on a migitation needed primary (Will Power). Fault just tends to be overkill in most circumstances. Useful certainly ... far from defining or a corner stone.
P.S. - As we've done this circle a number of times ... Math doesn't accurately describe how the game should be played. Not an attack and not interpreting yours as one. Just tired of debating the game from the point of view of a calculator.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, going on your wish to talk about subjective interpretations of powers and how they feel: I completely agree with Sarrate's assessment of Fault's place within SM, and I find your interpretation to be that of a crazy person. It is not the only good thing about SM, to be sure, but it is an essential tool ...
[/ QUOTE ]
And for a Fire Tanker you may very well be right. But consider that you are holding up the *squishiest* Tanker primary as an example.
My WP Tanker has tanked virtually every end game TF (with the exception of the STF) without Fault and has done so as successfully as my Inv/SS Tanker. So this would defy your blanket assertion that it is a *must have* or an *essential tool*. For a Fire Tanker? Certainly ... I could see that. For most other well built Tanker primaries? Useful ... but not essential (I could see an argument being made for being more useful for Shield and Ice and possibly Dark (for the stun stacking with OG) ... but again, not *essential*).
This what bothers me about Sarrate's post ... she (he, it, whatever) uses math the same way more creative debaters use circuitous logic to rationalize a view point rather than actually objectively debating.
Had Sarrate been a bit more truthful (thoughtful? insightful? experienced? honest?) he would have pointed out that his "math" only makes sense in a vacuum. Put into the context of an attack chain *and* in what a normal person/group might be expected to play, SS and SM are virtually identical (not including either Fault or Handclap) in killing speed with SM's single target damage being superior to SS and KO Blow's animation time offsetting Tremor's.
In other words, when actually *playing* each set they feel virtually identical and peform virtually identically. So yeah, Sarrate's equation makes sense if your Tanker is throwing FS on auto and that's all he's doing. Over the course of 10 years compared to Tremor, I'm sure Footstomp is mathematically a billion times better. But that's just silly.
Finally we throw in the debate of Fault versus Handclap, which Fault is clearly better then Handclap (in your own words, "essential and a must have"). Forgetting the comparison between sets for a moment, most everyone will agree that Handclap is fairly fluff (fun power I think Acemace called it) if not downright useless by and large (my take on it). In and of itself, I think most people would agree (and certainly the vast majority of SS Tankers) that Handclap should be tweaked up. The debate is how.
Sarrate's (and others) assertion is that it would make SS too powerful giving Handclap k/d vs the current k/b because it would make SS and SM truly more equivelant (implying that SM is overpowered in its current form which in my mind is downright silly). Another mathematical omission here is the fact that Handclap would *still* have a 50% greater recharge time and use 30% more endurance (so SM still eclipsing SS slightly all around).
Again, the difference between *playing* the game and *calculating* the game. If I were actually forced to tank the the way the number junkies would make tanking out to be I think I'd drive a railroad spike through my head.
Fortunately that's not how the game actually operates. 
Is balancing a set, any set, by creating a useless or extremely situation power really a good method of balance?
May as well just take the power out and call it balanced in that case.
I agree entirely ... I don't think having ultra situational powers and/or fairly useless powers (especially in a very limited power selection pool) should be a method for balancing a set.
And the Handclap issue has been around since beta .... I assume that since SS isn't "broken" per se, that Handclap hasn't been prioritized into an update. With the limited staff that CoH has, I could see why.
Kruunch: Fault offers something to every primary, even WP despite how survivable you can build the set. It's not just for a squishy set like Fiery Aura. Fault takes a lot of enemies out of the fight which can allow you to regen hp, debuffs fall off, detoggle enemies, or even hold aggro. It's a multipurpose tool. Whatever you can accomplish now, you could accomplish more with it. There is nothing bad to be said about it except the accuracy penalty (which is only a minor factor considering the benefits and the mechanics of how AoEs do tohit checks). I would absolutely never skip it.
As for Tremor vs Foot Stomp... that is more than a vacuum analysis. The entire point of DPA is how efficiently you can deal damage over time. (Since you cannot alter Activation Times, they become crucial when computing how much damage you can do.) Stone Melee using Tremor pays for it by slowing down its single target damage to a much larger degree than SS pays by using Foot Stomp. (FS is superior to Jab and is about 92% the DPA of Punch. Compare that to Tremor which is only 32.8% the DPA of Stone Mallet - Stone's lowest DPA single target attack (not counting Hurl Boulder, of which it is still only 48% the DPA of).)
I mentioned the recharge earlier (as if it were on auto) to show the availability, even under best case situations (which is in favor of Tremor) it loses. The more Stone has to delay using it (due to other powers being activated, etc) the more ground it loses to FS.
That's not just number crunching, I've played with both. I like Tremor more than most people, I really do... but it's not even in the same league. Foot Stomp beats Tremor into a bloody pulp.
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Is balancing a set, any set, by creating a useless or extremely situation power really a good method of balance?
May as well just take the power out and call it balanced in that case.
[/ QUOTE ]
Calash: Yes, Hand Clap sucks. No, I don't think it sucking is a good thing. I don't think giving SS a Fault clone is the answer, though. That would be trading in a hand grenade for a nuclear bomb in terms of potency.
[ QUOTE ]
Calash: Yes, Hand Clap sucks. No, I don't think it sucking is a good thing. I don't think giving SS a Fault clone is the answer, though. That would be trading in a hand grenade for a nuclear bomb in terms of potency.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to feel it is less of sucking and more of being made redundant due to Foot Stomp. I can see where you are going with the potential of being overpowered however. A Shield/SS/Energy build would be juggling mobs for hours even before building for high recharge (Shield Charge, Foot Stomp, Hand Clap, Energy Torrent, Repeat). Drop Hasten into that mix and you have a Melee controller.
Changing it to Knockdown would be a buff so we should look at ways to balance that within the power.
IMHO, here is what I would love to see.
Range increased
Increased Recharge
Knockdown
Mag 1 stun.
The numbers would need some work but you could turn it into something similar to Shield Charge where it acts as an active Alpha mitigation tool.
All of this is academic however since I don't have room in my build for Fireball, let alone a buffed Handclap 
[ QUOTE ]
Kruunch: Fault offers something to every primary, even WP despite how survivable you can build the set. It's not just for a squishy set like Fiery Aura. Fault takes a lot of enemies out of the fight which can allow you to regen hp, debuffs fall off, detoggle enemies, or even hold aggro. It's a multipurpose tool. Whatever you can accomplish now, you could accomplish more with it. There is nothing bad to be said about it except the accuracy penalty (which is only a minor factor considering the benefits and the mechanics of how AoEs do tohit checks). I would absolutely never skip it.
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I never said it didn't and I really wish you would stop twisting your posts to imply that I did (not the first time I've asked you to stop doing that I might add). I just said that it wasn't *essential* or to use your words, "the cornerstone" of SM, which implies your build will suffer horribly without it. That might be your experience. That isn't mine. Having used said tool (even when I needed it no less) and seeing how easily I could replace it doing the same content (in this case an ITF). That's why I say "a good tool" and not "an essential tool" ... by and large.
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As for Tremor vs Foot Stomp... that is more than a vacuum analysis. The entire point of DPA is how efficiently you can deal damage over time. (Since you cannot alter Activation Times, they become crucial when computing how much damage you can do.) Stone Melee using Tremor pays for it by slowing down its single target damage to a much larger degree than SS pays by using Foot Stomp. (FS is superior to Jab and is about 92% the DPA of Punch. Compare that to Tremor which is only 32.8% the DPA of Stone Mallet - Stone's lowest DPA single target attack (not counting Hurl Boulder, of which it is still only 48% the DPA of).)
I mentioned the recharge earlier (as if it were on auto) to show the availability, even under best case situations (which is in favor of Tremor) it loses. The more Stone has to delay using it (due to other powers being activated, etc) the more ground it loses to FS.
That's not just number crunching, I've played with both. I like Tremor more than most people, I really do... but it's not even in the same league. Foot Stomp beats Tremor into a bloody pulp.
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I have played and currently play with both and I'd be willing to bet you that I can kill as fast or faster with my SM, as you can with your SS through the same content. Would you agree if that were true, that would make your FS debate sort of moot?
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Calash: Yes, Hand Clap sucks. No, I don't think it sucking is a good thing. I don't think giving SS a Fault clone is the answer, though. That would be trading in a hand grenade for a nuclear bomb in terms of potency.
[/ QUOTE ]
Explain to me in what way exactly would HC having k/d instead of k/b, turns it from a useless power to overpowering the whole primary. In game terms please.
Or more precisely ... how does it make it any different then Stone Melee currently is?
(and I notice you still haven't mentioned the continuing differences that would exist between HC and Fault ... sigh)
*EDIT* Sarrate: Instead of going around and around as usual let's try a different tact (*gasp*). Since you agree Hand Clap sucks, how would YOU change it?
I think a reasonable case could be made to reduce h/c's max targets to 5 and then change k/b to k/d. That would open the possibility to reformulate the end ratio, since it would be a weaker power.
But as Kruunch mentioned above me I don't think SS is on Castle's worksheet for the near future, after spending the end of 07 and most of 08 on melee rebalancing.
[ QUOTE ]
I think a reasonable case could be made to reduce h/c's max targets to 5 and then change k/b to k/d. That would open the possibility to reformulate the end ratio, since it would be a weaker power.
But as Kruunch mentioned above me I don't think SS is on Castle's worksheet for the near future, after spending the end of 07 and most of 08 on melee rebalancing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd feel more inclined to take it if they turned k/b to k/d and took out the stun (if they felt that was necessary to balance it). I think the 5 player limit would make it as unattractive as it is now (for my playstyle anyways) but it would still be a large improvement over its current form.
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I never said it didn't and I really wish you would stop twisting your posts to imply that I did (not the first time I've asked you to stop doing that I might add). I just said that it wasn't *essential* or to use your words, "the cornerstone" of SM, which implies your build will suffer horribly without it. That might be your experience. That isn't mine. Having used said tool (even when I needed it no less) and seeing how easily I could replace it doing the same content (in this case an ITF). That's why I say "a good tool" and not "an essential tool" ... by and large.
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I honestly wasn't trying to twist your words, put words in your mouth, or anything of the sort. The only thing I was trying to get across is why I felt it was such an important power. If you took it any other way, I apologize, it wasn't my intent.
(No, it's not the best tool for all content, such as the ITF. In others such as psi enemies to sets with a psi hole, Vanguard, or AE critters it'd be worth its weight in gold. I highly value it's flexibility, which is one reason I personally place it in such high regard.)
[ QUOTE ]
I have played and currently play with both and I'd be willing to bet you that I can kill as fast or faster with my SM, as you can with your SS through the same content. Would you agree if that were true, that would make your FS debate sort of moot?
[/ QUOTE ]
So I just spent 2-2.5 hours testing my Fire/SM vs Ice/SS Tankers. (That includes time to make the missions, rerun times I overwrote demos, Hasten/Rage resetting, and retakes when the RNG decided to be a jerkhacker and spawn bosses mid mission.)
[u]The Tanks[u]
Aarrora (Fire/SM): ~58% rech in st attacks, ~20-30% rech in Tremor, ~40% global rech, 1 FF: +rech in Tremor.
Eis Geist (Ice/SS): ~58% rech in st attacks, ~30% rech in FS, ~20-25% global rech.
Aarrora is far more heavily IOed out than EG (who only has 4-5 sets of CI total). This means Aa can last longer during these tests with fewer interruptions (less need for EA, for example). This can really slow EG down.
[u]The Tests[u]
**_RiktiBossOnly*.cohdemo - This test I ran to the boss at the end of the map and defeated him. I timed from the time I started to actually fight, not travel time. I'm basically getting a frame of reference to compare against AoE. (One of EG's tests I took out a Guardian to prevent healing before I engaged the boss. I didn't start timing till I turned to fight the boss.) Test 1 is with Hasten up, Test 2 is with Hasten down.
**_RiktiBossAll*.cohdemo - This is the same map as the previous test; I just herded everything to the end and fought everything there. Again, I didn't start timing until I started to fight, herd time not included. Test 1 is with Hasten up, Test 2 is with Hasten down.
**_BoreaSimulation*.cohdemo - This is basically a map used in one of Boreas's missions with a boss at the end. I started recording from the moment I started moving until I killed the last mob on the map.
Note 1: I only used SM and SS for damage, so no BA, FE, Pyre, or Icicles. (I used Consume once, negligible impact on kill speed.)
Note 2: The fourth Borea Simulation for Aarrora is me disregarding the above. I just wanted to see how much FA + Pyre sped her up. Answer: A LOT.
[u]The Results[u]
Demos / Missions used for testing
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> Aarrora Eis Geist
Boss1 52s 48s
Boss2 54s 52s
All1 52s boss dead 51s boss dead
1m21s map clear 30s minions dead
1:01 map clear
All2 1:13 boss dead 52s boss dead
1:30 map clear 36s minions dead
1:05 map clear
B Sim1 3:48 3:58
B Sim2 4:14 4:45
B Sim3 3:49 4:20
B Sim4 2:51 </pre><hr />
In the controlled tests (RiktiBossOnly* and RiktiBossAll*) SS equals or beats the pants off SM pretty handily. Minions and Lieutenants drop much quicker, even dropping noticeably sooner than the boss. Interestingly, Termor didn't slow down Aarrora's st offense as much as I planned, but I'm guessing that is due to leveraging the FF proc allowing things like Seismic Smash to cycle faster.
The Borea missions were a much bigger headache for me. Even using the same map, EG kept getting unfavorable spawns (bosses mid mission, twice, ungh), not to mention enemies that don't clump nearly as well as during Aarrora's runs.
It also exposed a result I wasn't expecting, namely that SS's long term performance varies depending on mission length. Basically, if a mission ends before a Rage crash, then SS got 120s of heightened performance for free. If the end of a mission is around a Rage crash, then SS has to pay for it. The first Borea test I managed to finish it before the second crash. The last two tests I had to eat the second crash. It turns out the mission length I chose was right at that threshold.
Despite the duration of my testing, I'd say there were a lot of flaws. Namely:
*) Unequal slotting
*) FF proc contaminating results
*) Small sample size
*) Travel time (SJ vs Fly)
*) Very narrow in scope. Not enough map variety to get a good simulation of CoH's range of content. This also includes maps that are more densely spawned, reducing travel time (less wasted Rage) and easier to herd. The map I chose was spread out diluting SS's AoE advantage.
It was an okay start, but certainly not something I'd call conclusive. I may revisit it later, but it'll likely be at least later in the weekend due to previous obligations. Feel free to test the missions yourself.
[ QUOTE ]
Explain to me in what way exactly would HC having k/d instead of k/b, turns it from a useless power to overpowering the whole primary. In game terms please.
Or more precisely ... how does it make it any different then Stone Melee currently is?
(and I notice you still haven't mentioned the continuing differences that would exist between HC and Fault ... sigh)
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It would be a lot stronger because it would bring a lot more reliable mitigation to the table. It could be dangerous for Invuln or WP to use it because it would spread out a spawn making their mob fueled auras much less effective. It would reduce the effectiveness of Fire, DA, Shield, Ice, and Stone by knocking things out of their damage auras (or +dmg) auras, slowing kill speed (not to mention aoes cones). This applies to teams as well which use AoEs or AoE debuffs. Easiest example of what I'm talking about: scatter from a bad stormie.
When it's knockdown it's no longer situational, it becomes "use whenever you want" power with no strings attached. That's a lot more powerful.
Also, I'd say that SM and SS are both in the upper eschelon of Tanker secondary effectiveness, making such a boost in effectiveness to one of those sets would be unwise. In abstract terms, if Castle wants Tanker sets to have a performance between X and Y, and SS is very close to Y, it's performance is high, but within the acceptable range. There is no reason to buff it (considerably) closer to, or beyond Y.
(Note: I did say that Fault was on the extreme end as it is. Well, Stone Melee in general is very control heavy. I'm flabbergasted SS is still MAG4, considering the change to TF.)
(Yes, I'm aware of the rech/end differences between the two.)
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*EDIT* Sarrate: Instead of going around and around as usual let's try a different tact (*gasp*). Since you agree Hand Clap sucks, how would YOU change it?
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Honestly, I'm not sure. Whatever change is made, it would have to not violate the 'cottage rule.' In other words, it can't change a power's function. (See Frozen Aura still sleeps.) So, Hand Clap would have to still have to have some form of knock* and stun. There are a lot of options:
Always knockdown / shorter stun
Always knockdown, chance for knockback / (?length) stun
Chance for knockdown/back / longer stun
That's just trying to fiddle with the two effects that would have to stay no matter how HC was changed. There is a possibility of adding another secondary effect (almost positively not damage, possibly a small -res?), but I'm not sure what would be acceptable.
I haven't made any suggestions because I'm hard to please myself. :P
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I'd like to seem them remove the crash and make perma-rage impossible, or leave the perma-bility as is and increase the effects of the crash.
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Ever since Strength of Will debuted, to be followed by One with the Shield, I've been wondering when Rage would get the "unenhanceable recharge" type.
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Don't you dare. 
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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I'd like to seem them remove the crash and make perma-rage impossible, or leave the perma-bility as is and increase the effects of the crash.
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Ever since Strength of Will debuted, to be followed by One with the Shield, I've been wondering when Rage would get the "unenhanceable recharge" type.