Finduilas
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Posts
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Quote:AFAIK, all of the melee sets have powers that protect against the most common and debilitating status effects--hold, sleep, stun, immob etc. Protection against KB and some of the less deadly effects like Fear is a lot more variable.Originally Posted by Postagulous
Break frees is right.
Or be Willpower, I think dark has Obsidian Sheild, etc. [different archetype and powerset iow]
But unfortunately, that doesn't help non-melee characters, where, as others have noted, the options are very limited for everything but KB protection. -
Quote:Thanks for the info. I was aware of the LotG exception, but not that the KB IOs were one also. (Though I have no idea why you'd want that much KB protection.)Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Please note that as of current, there are two known examples of "same name" being different than "same bonus".
Each KB Protection IO's protection is granted as a set bonus uniquely named after the IO granting it (Steadfast KB Protection, Karma, Zephyr, etc). So right now you could, in theory, have something like 60 points of protection (5x Karma, 5x Steadfast, x Zephyr) providing you had the powers to slot them in...
The Luck of the Gambler Global Recharge Bonus Global grants 7.5% a recharge bonus. And standard set bonuses also have a same sized bonus, but it's named Huge Recharge bonus vs. Luck of the Gambler Recharge Bonus.
Those are the only two I can think of where "5x the same bonus" isn't a good sloppy rule of thumb...
But the main point of my post was to clarify that it's not based on set type. Someone could spend a lot of influence thinking that 5 of any set was okay if they didn't realize that most bonuses of the same value are limited by the rule. -
Although many of the powers look adequately slotted, you don't seem to paying attention to the enhancement values. For instance, in HPT, those three Steadfast are only giving a 26% resistance enhancement--to fully slot if for resistance you should be aiming for around 56% (The KB IO is totally unnecessary, BTW, WP gets plenty of KB protection from Indomitable Will.) You'd be better off keeping the Steadfast +def and replacing the other two with common IOs.
Similarly, all your Recovery and Regen powers are underslotted to one degree or another. The procs do help, but they'd do even more if they had more Recovery and Regen to work with. Stamina is particularly bad; that PF Acc/Rchg is doing absolutely nothing for you. And honestly, if you think you really need all those procs in RTTC, (it seems like overkill to me) replace the Numima's with common Heal IOs so you get something closer to full enhancement of the Heals.
In contrast, MoB and Heightened senses are both overslotted. It's okay to overslot if you can get a really great bonus that way (IMO the 1.56% F/C bonus from Aegis doesn't qualify) but in this build you need those slots elsewhere.
And that "elsewhere", first and foremost, is in the attacks slotted with Kinetic Combat. As a set, KC is low in accuracy and damage, so I strongly recommend that you add another slot to each and use it for a set IO from another set. If you're not planning to use Boxing/and or Air Sup they can stay at four slots, but at the very least both Punch and Haymaker need another slot. -
Quote:Just so there's no confusion, the deciding factor isn't whether they're the same set, but whether they have bonuses with the same name. You can have 3 sets of one type that has a "large recovery bonus", and 2 sets of another type that also has a "large recovery bonus", and that will count as the max of five for that bonus.Originally Posted by Oya
Yes, all the way up to 5 powers slotted with the same sets.
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Quote:Some minor corrections; Reactive Armor's E/NE/S/L bonuses are 1.25%, not 1.88%, and Eradication is 3.13% E/NE.Originally Posted by Tonality
Your first priority is to get your typed defense to respecable levels.
1) Smashing/Lethal
---Kinetic Combats (4 slots for 3.75%)
---Mocking Beratement (4 slots for 2.5%)
---Perfect Zinger (6 slots for 3.13%)
---Reactive Armor (4 slots for 1.88%)
2) Nrg/Negative
---Thunderstrike (3 slots for 2.5%)
---Eradication (4 slots for 3.75%)
---Reactive Armor (3 slots for 1.88%)
I'd also add:
Smashing Haymaker, 4 slots for 1.88% S/L
Rectified Reticle, 2 slots for 1.88% S/L
Thunderstrike, 6 slots for 3.75% E/NE (includes 2.5% bonus listed above)
Basilisk's Gaze, 2 slots for 2.5% E/NE
Pulverizing Fisticuffs, 3 slots for 1.25% E/NE
Pounding Slugfest, 3 slots for 1.25% E/NE
Blessing of the Zephyr, 2 slots for 1.56% E/NE, 3 slots for 1.56% F/C
(Note that the BotZ F/C def bonus requires the -KB IO, which is stupid expensive and not necessary for EA.)
Gaussian's Fire Control, 6 slots for 1.25% S/L/E/NE/F/C
The last two are really primarily positional bonuses, but they are frequently used by players building for typed defense. -
If this is a leveling build, IMO your biggest problem is power selection. There are 4 "must have" powers in Invul, and you've delayed 3 of them well past when you could--and should--take them.
Specifically, Temp Invul, Dull Pain and Unyielding should all be taken as soon as they're available or very shortly thereafter. The three resistance passives (RPD, ResEn, ResEl) can be delayed until the 20s or even 30s. Also, Dull Pain needs to be slotted equally with Recharge and Heal; currently it's underslotted for Recharge.
And as Hyperstrike noted, your almost all of your attacks are underslotted. IMO, a good general guideline is to assume 5 slots for each attack, attacks you seldom use can get away with 4, and if you have the slots, consider 6-slotting the heavy hitters like Foot Stomp and KoB. Haymaker currently has 6 slots but is still poorly slotted, there's no accuracy enhancement and the KB set IOs are likely to turn its KD into KB. (Not good for a Invul tank that is dependent on having mobs in melee range for additional defense.)
Because of the diminishing returns imposed by ED, it is rarely desirable to alot more than 4 slots to defense and resistance toggles. Passives like RPD, ResEn and ResEl in Invul, as well as Health and Stamina only need three slots unless you're slotting for a specific set bonus.
If you want to increase defense, it is very important to look for good typed defense bonuses; sets that are primarily designed to provide positional bonuses will have smaller usable bonuses and cost more slots. Among the sets you have slotted, Kinetic Combat and Eradication are both good choices for typed defense bonuses, Mako's Bite and Titanium Coating are not.
I recommend that you look in the tanker guide section for Call_Me_Awesome's guides. He has one on Invul in the first twenty levels and one on soft-capping Invul, both of which you should find quite helpful. -
Quote:At one time it was true that it was always easier to soft-cap positional defense, but since they paired damage types in defense bonuses that's no longer the case.Originally Posted by Novella
I tend to go for positional defense because its a lot easier to cap out and it covers everything I will ever require.
I have never found a good enough reason to go for typed and probably never will....
I prefer typed defense for a couple of reasons:
S/L and E/NE damage represents a very high percentage of damage in the game. (I think it's between 80 and 90% but that's from memory.) You can more safely skip building for F/C/Psi that you can skip, say, AoE defense.
Most typed defense bonuses are available as 3 or 4 slots bonuses, positional bonuses usually require 5 or 6 slots. With typed defense you're not locked in to 6 slotting your powers for bonuses, and that makes for much more flexible slotting. -
Quote:Not a problem, it's not like you had any way of knowing. On the rare occasions it comes up in the forums it just seems weird to let someone believe something that isn't true.Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Sorry, ma'am, I didn't know so I assumed you were a "sir."
For what it's worth, I do agree with you that if a Invul tank can't manage/can't afford/isn't inclined to soft-cap E/NE as well as S/L defense, inspirations are a great tool to get through the rough bits of the ITF.Quote:But I get your point. Invincibilty and tough hide give typed defense so it's better to build on those strengths. Fair enough. I agree -
Quote:Just for the record, I'm not a 'sir'.Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
No, sir, I am not confusing defense with resistance. I was not talking about slotting for positional defense, I was talking about aquiring it through outside buffs. And while you can soft cap both, soft capping just S/L is terribly easy and fairly cheap to do
I disagree that soft-capping S/L is easier than E/NE; in some cases it is more difficult. It's mostly dependent on secondary, those like SS and EM that have mostly ST attacks will find it easier to soft-cap S/L than E/NE. Secondaries with many PBAoE attacks like Fire, Mace and Axe will find it easier to soft-cap E/NE.
Expense is a whole 'nother issue. If you've got enough ST attacks that you can slot several sets of Smashing Haymaker, yes, soft-capping S/L is fairly cheap. If you have few ST attacks and have to slot Kinetic Combat to soft-cap S/L, you'll spend much more than you would using Erads and BotZ to soft-cap E/NE.
And I still don't know why you'd go looking for positional defense from outside buffs. Defense inspirations buff both typed and positional AFAIK, and if you had a choice of typed or positional buffs, typed would always be better since they would stack with Invul's existing defense. -
To echo the others, your biggest problem is that the powers that provide damage mitigation in the form of regen, resistance and defense are woefully underslotted for regen, resistance and defense. Standard resistance or defense toggles rarely need more than 1 SOs worth of endurance reduction, so once you're using SOs, plan for 3 res/def/regen and 1 end reduction per toggle, and just the three slots for passives. HPT is a little unsual since it provides both resistance and regen, so slot 3 res dam and 3 heal. CJ's end cost is *tiny* and it's base defense is small, one def slot will do.
Attacks use much, much more endurance than non-damage toggles, so if you're going to slot for end reduction, that's the place to do it. However, a WP tank with both QR and Stamina may not need such aggressive end reduction slotting. First try correcting the slotting in your WP powers and if you have end problems, slot more end reduction in your attacks, *not* your toggles. -
Quote:Well, I missed something, I play tanks and scraps more often than brutes and I forgot that for some reason brute CoF has a higher mag than OG. Sorry!Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
I am just trying to write a full reply to your previous post but I thought I'd quickly jump on this since this is an area I never quite understood.
CoF has a Mag 3 Fear plus a 6.5% To-Hit Debuff (slotted) and costs a bunch of endurance.
OpG has a Mag 2 Disorient and costs minor endurance and health.
Given that I can stack neither Fear nor Stun:
1. Both negate minions but who cares
2. CoF negates LTs but again LTs should be a non-issue anyway
3. Neither negates higher level foes BUT CoF provides you effectively with up to 6.5% defense against them (depending on their debuff resistance)
It is really 3. why I take one of them at all and the reason I slot it for the debuff and not for the mez. Is there something I'm missing?
Oh and thanks for both your replies so far!
That said, I don't know how useful the defense debuff is in practice. IME, most DA players don't bother to slot for the debuff, but that could be because it needs a lot of accuracy and end reduction slotting.
But again, the main reason I suggested the switch to OG from CoF is that you seemed very concerned about end management, and the difference in end cost between the two is *huge*. (.08 EPS for OG vs .52 for CoF unslotted) You can make up some of that difference with end red slotting, of course, but even slotted to the ED cutoff of 95% end reduction CoF will still cost .27 EPS. -
Well, for one thing, you've overslotted your resistance powers for end reduction, and slotted no end red at all in your defense toggles. Based on the fact that you put an extra end red slot in a *passive*, I'm guessing that the fifth RA slot is for the F/C bonus. IMO, the tiny F/C def bonus it is definitely not worth it considering what those slots could/should be used for.
So, take the Endurance slot out of TI, UY, Tough, and ResEn. Put an additional slot in Invinc and Weave, get rid of the common IO, and slot LotG Def/End and Def/End/Rchg in each.
With the other two slots freed up from your resist powers, put a slot each in Barrage and Bone Smasher. Attacks just 4-slotted with Kinetic Combat are low in accuracy and damage, so add a Acc/Dam, Acc/Dam/Rchg, or Acc/Dam/End from another set. (Crushing Impact is a good choice since it's not too expensive and goes to level 50.)
Invul has excellent KB protection in UY, so that -KB IO is not needed for that purpose. If you slotted it for the F/C, I don't think it's worth the influence considering how rare F/C damage is. I think you'd be better off putting it in Tough Hide and slotting a Kismet +Acc, or as a second end reduction slot in FA. (I think CP is a better prereq than FA, but your call.)
As it is, you're not quite to the S/L soft-cap. If you do want get past 45%, all it would take is to replace one of the CI sets in ET or TF with 4 Smashing Haymaker plus another set IO. It's up to you whether soft-capping is worth giving up the CI bonuses.
The only other thing I'd suggest is to take RPD earlier; either ResEn or ResEl can easily be bumped to 49. -
Quote:The same could be said for Cloak of Fear if you have Op Gloom running.Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
I'm not sold on oppressive gloom. It seems that the foes I'd mostly affect with it are the one I shouldn't care about in the first place and definately not after they are affected by Cloak of Fear.
Consider it an FYI, then, that if you start running into serious endurance problems that Op Gloom provides the same level of damage mitigation as CoF at a fraction of the endurance cost. (And far fewer slots) -
Quote:I've been on several TT runs, and the only time I was in a group that had serious problems with a mish was an AV run against Diabolique, IIRC. We had to get a troller to help take her down, but he was nice about it and didn't gloat at all.Originally Posted by Gwilthor
Sorry for not being more specific, Finduilas. I was occupying a slot in the same Manti TF, as Revja the 48 DA/DM.
I must pat ourselves on the back, however. I knew we would be durable. I was a little suprized by our overall speed. Hands down, that goes down as the best TF I've run in a long time.
Other than that, we've pretty much steamrolled through missions. There are no squishies to worry about, and aggro is spread around such that all you have to do is attack and keep moving. Very fun. -
Quote:It won't be wasted. Champion TTs are on the first Tuesday of the month, Justice TTs on the second Tuesday.Originally Posted by Postagulous
Justice? I thought Tanker Tuesdays were in Champion. I just made a WP/DB on Champion for this.
And yes, the Justice TTs are a new thing, just started a few months ago. -
Quote:I think you're confusing Invul's levels of resistance with defense; it starts with exactly the same amount of defense to E/NE damage as it does to S/L. Most players concentrate on increasing S/L defense first when slotting for defense bonuses, but it's no harder to soft-cap E/NE than it is S/L. As a matter of fact, a well-built Invul tank can soft-cap both S/L and E/NE defense; F/C usually lags behind, but that's more because it's a low priority than any inherent difficulty in soft-capping it.Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
For most AVs I just straight up tank -- jump in, get in their face, punch them and call them dirty names. For psi powers or the STF, you need to have capped defense. Invulnerable can be capped to smash/lethal easily enough but GW and Recluse also use a lot of negative energy and energy attacks. So you're better off going with positional defense with friend buffs, defense inspirations, and accolades.
IMO, intentionally slotting for positional defense on an Invul tank when it already has substantial amounts of typed defense to everything but Psi is a waste of influence and plays against Invul's strengths. -
It's better in some ways, but in others, not so much.
For instance, your power selection was much better in the first build. You absolutely do *not* want to skip Clobber, the highest damaging, guaranteed stun, Mac Daddy attack of War Mace. Drop Pulverize or Jawbreaker instead. You also need Heightened Senses, it provides all the available defense in WP. I'd strongly recommend that you drop Resurgence instead, or one of the epic powers.
Indomitable Will is your mez protection and should be taken by level 10, and Fast Healing should also be taken much sooner. QR actually provides more recovery than Stamina, so I'd take it at 12 and move the Fitness pool into the 20s so you have room for IW, QR and FH earlier. I like taking Taunt at 10, but if necessary it can be delayed so you can fit your critical primary powers in early.
For attack slotting, I think you should allocate enough slots so that every attack is at least 5-slotted. You can get away with 4 slots in a seldom used or Tier 1 attack if you really need the slots elsewhere, but 5 is a good rule of thumb. So in this build I recommend that you find 4 or 5 slots additional slots for your attacks--that's especially true if you are going to use IOs like the Pounding Slugfest Disorient, since they don't provide any of the usual acc/dam/end red/rchg enhancement.
I see that I wasn't clear enough when I said that HPT was underslotted; it provides regen and resistance, and it was underslotted for the resistance portion. Slotting the SP +def there was fine; it just need more resistance slotting. I'd drop the two Miracles and the Numina Triple and replace it with the SP and two other resist IOs--even common IOs would do.
Mind over Body is still very overslotted. Toggles of that sort that have one main purpose that needs to be enhanced--in this case, S/L/Psi resistance--almost never need more than 4 slots. The 4 Imperv Armors will be more than sufficient, and that will free up two slots for your attacks. (IMO the Psi resist IO is a waste since WP has plenty of other Psi damage mitigation. I'd use the Imperv Res/End/Rchg instead.)
Rise to the Challenge is WP's taunt aura, but it also provides significant amounts of regen, and should be slotted accordingly. 3 or 4 Healing set IOs and 1 or 2 Taunt durations is the way to go. Procs aren't usually recommended for toggles, since the proc only has a chance to go off every 10 seconds; I'd skip the Dark Watcher's proc.
Health, Stamina, QR and FH are all reasonably slotted, so power order is the only issue there. Indomitable Will's defense slotting just increases your Psi defense, so if you need slots pulling a couple from IW is an option.
After that, I'd throw another slot in Shatter and be done!
Oh, I'd recommend a power order something like this; it's your picks but with the two selection changes I suggested:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 48 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: War Mace
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Ancillary Pool: Earth Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Bash -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Fast Healing -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Jawbreaker -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Indomitable Will -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Rise to the Challenge -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Taunt -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Super Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Mind Over Body -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Clobber -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Heightened Senses -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Whirling Mace -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Build Up -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Shatter -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Crowd Control -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Strength of Will -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Salt Crystals -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Quick Sand -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Stalagmites -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet -
Quote:Which takes us back to "slotting CC and Shatter with KB sets=Very Bad Idea".Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Heh, I didn't even notice that but as Finduilas said that isn't really very good slotting. The problem that you run into without Taunt is that the duration on RttC is extremely low. For most taunt auras the duration is 16+ seconds. So when you and an enemy move apart (irregardless of wherever you moved away or they got knocked back) the taunt effect remains one them for some time allowing time for them to come back in range. With RTTC the duration is 1.25s which is sufficient for keeping them taunted while in close range but means that the effect will be lost almost immediately if they move outside the aura. If that happens to an enemy that you had recently attacked then they will probably come back but if you hadn't punched them recently then they may go after someone else at which point you have the choice of either running after them (and potentially losing aggro on someone else) or letting them run free.
Slotting Taunt Duration IOs in RttC, however, is a Very GOOD Idea. -
You definitely do NOT want to slot your attacks solely with Taunt IOs. All Tanker secondary attacks already have an inherent taunt component, but even worse, as is they are completely unslotted for damage and end reduction, and underslotted for accuracy. A tank's primary job is to manage aggro, but doing damage is important too! The same goes for the Stun and KB sets, they simply do not slot attacks adequately by themselves. In addition, the KB enhancement in Shatter and CC will change the knockdown in those attacks to knock*back*, which believe me, is in most circumstances A Very Bad Thing.
I agree that taking Taunt is a good idea for ranged aggro control, and to supplement Gauntlet and RttCs taunt. To make room for it I'd personally drop the rez like a hot potato, but dropping either Pulverize or Jawbreaker is also an option.
Willpower does not need KB protection, IW takes care of that, so that -KB IO in HPT is completely unnecessary.
I really can't tell if you are working toward a specific bonus type other than regen, or if you are, what it is. Your slotting is all over the place, some powers are vastly overslotted (MoB, QR, Stamina) and some are very underslotted (HPT, HS). For resistance or defense powers, you should try to enhance the def or res to around 56%. A few percentage points off is fine, but currently HPT and HS are way, way off.
In general, your power choice and order is fine, though I would pick up Taunt and try to work HS in earlier in the build. It's mostly slotting that's a problem, so if you could let us know what sort of bonuses you're looking for you could get more specific advice. But at the very least, correct your attack slotting! -
Which TF did you do, Gwilthor?
I was in the super-speedy Manti group; {points to sig} -
Quote:Yeah, I was going to ask the OP why the defense powers are slotted that way. There's little benefit to using mixed set slotting for defense or resistance toggles unless the bonuses are very desirable, and absolutely none for passives. It seems unlikely that the OP is slotting for that terrific Immob resistance bonus!Originally Posted by Frogfather
Your SR defensive toggles and passives are overslotted. You could remove that second Def/End in each of them and still be over the cap. Personally I like LotG +7.5%/LotG Def (or Def/End if its a toggle) and a Def IO in each until I hit the rule of 5....But thats expensive. So Set IO Def, Def/End and Def IO would probably work for you. At least dont 2 slot Red Fortune...even doing that youre still over the softcap.
I'd go with either 4 slots of LotG or 4 slots of GotA, since they have the best bonuses, IMO. Just using 3 slots in the passives won't hurt the defense totals much if those slots are needed elsewhere. -
Well, you fixed the endurance problem with BA, but it's still very underslotted.
You also still have all the other slotting issues I mentioned; an inefficient mix of typed and positional def bonuses, some toggles very underslotted and some over slotted, underslotted attacks, etc.
IMO, this build needs more than flowers and throw pillows. -
Quote:Now, I would add another slot to each toggle, but taking Chad's suggestion and simply switching the LotG Dam/End/Rchg for a LotG Defense in all four will raise your overall defense by 2%. (That's still not to the ED cutoff, but a lot closer than your current slotting.)Originally Posted by Fatal_Mind
I used obliteration sets for the rech/dam/def bonuses. And tot sets for the dam/def/proc. I could use kinetic combat but i'd rather get the def,dam,and proc all in one. Adding in another defense io to the defense toggles only give about another 1.7% which isn't worth it to me.
I see that you've 6-slotted Build Up with Gaussian's, presumably at least in part for the 1.25% def to typed defense.
But you're not willing to change your slotting to gain a substantially *larger* defense increase for all damage types, even though it will cost you nothing in slots or powers?
{boggle} You're going to have to explain that reasoning to me, since it can't possibly be a end issue...not only does EA have an end recovery power, but the amount of end you'd save by slotting the toggles for so much end reduction is completely trivial compared to the endurance you'll be using with three attacks slotted with Obliteration. -
LSK, the link in your latest build is not working. You should fix it or post the data chunk so people can review it.
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Fatal_Mind, some of the sets you've used have primarily positional set bonuses, (Touch of Death, Obliteration and Gaussian's to a lesser extent) where EA has typed defense. That means you are using far more slots than necessary to get the level of defense you need. For example, one 4-slot set of Kinetic Combat gives as large a S/L defense bonus as two 6-slot set of ToD or Oblit. Typed defense sets to look for are: Kinetic Combat, Smashing Haymaker, Reactive Armor, Eradication and Aegis.
In addition, all three of your defense toggles are underslotted. IMO, that should have at least as high a priority as slotting for set defense bonuses.