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I preferred the original version, it was actually fun to read, informative, and refreshingly honest about what it was describing.
It's OK to admit that Fire Armor for Tanks is only stronger than Fire Armor for Scrappers, and then focus on leveraging whatever strengths are available. No need to pretend like it's the Undiscovered Next Best Thing and sugar coat its wimpiness.
Commie - don't forget to post your guide in the real Guides forum, then post a link to it in the Tanker Guides thread.
Oh yeah, I'd suggest adding something about the lack of knockback protection. -
Looks like typed vs. positional defense has already been hammered out, so I have just a few comments on specific IO choices.
Overall, since you were going for positional defense bonuses, many of your powers are enhanced in the wrong direction in order to get the bonus. For instance the Siphon Insight in Touch of Fear - you're buffing up the toHit debuff, but enhancing the Fear would result in the critter not attacking for longer, rather than having the shorter toHit debuff. Besides, just simply attacking with the dark punches will stack plenty of toHit Debuff on the target.
Picking other things:
Quote:A heal IO will boost your regen more than the +Regen proc.Level 14: Health (A) Regenerative Tissue - +Regeneration
Quote:Level 22: Stamina
(A) Energy Manipulator - Chance to Stun
(23) Energy Manipulator - EndMod/Recharge
(29) Energy Manipulator - EndModQuote:Level 49: Hibernate (A) Energy Manipulator - Chance to Stun
Hibernate would be better enhanced with two EndMod/Rech and one or two Heal/Rech, depending on how frequently you use it and how quickly you want to get back in the fight.
Quote:Level 30: Soul Drain
(A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
(36) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
(37) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
(39) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
(40) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
(40) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
Quote:Level 35: Dark Consumption
(A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage
(37) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance
(37) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(42) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge
(42) Scirocco's Dervish - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
(43) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge
Quote:Level 41: Icicles
(A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge
(43) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge
(45) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance
(48) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage
(50) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
Last tip: Track down Call Me Awesome's guide to soft-capping an Invulnerability tank -- It's easier to do on an Ice tank, you won't even need Tough or Weave. Put 4 Curtail Speed in Chilling Embrace, the +Def Steadfast in Hoarfrost or Permafrost, and I lean towards Serendipity in the armors for the +HP/+Regen bonus.
Most Psi and Toxic have smashing components, so you'll be covered. I take my Ice/Stone on the Lady Gray TF and only ever get stomped by Hami, so it works fine. (Disclaimer: I avoid Arachnos missions like the plague. They are extra laggy for me for some reason and it's annoying.) -
Quote:Just in case you didn't know - you can get the Ouro portal without doing any arcs by clicking on someone else's portal, and then going to the top of that arch that stretches from the top of the building down to by the pool.Yup, ran into ouroborus with my first toon (the tank) and I make sure I do that arc every time now (I feel like the character is kinda naked without the ability to use that travel option, makes it so much easier to get around).
There's an exploration badge there, and getting the badge gives the Portal. It's a handy way to get the portal if you hit 25 on a TF or something and haven't otherwise done a "temporal disturbance" arc. -
Yes, you can have multiples of the +end proc. If you make a Willpower or Regen toon, you could slot three of 'em!
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I'm more of a
Charging into spawns, stomping and poking and kicking... or sometimes just running right through them on my way somewhere else. -
Quote:Things to watch out for:I went with EM because I thought it was still the best secondary and because my guess was that a disorient build would work better than a fear one. Note that I can dip into the presence pool for both a targeted and AoE fear... so with a disorient secondary... I get to try both alternate/fun builds.
Regarding damage mitigation... there once was a scrapper FAQ for a fear/scraptroller build and the author also thought that there was a sustantial damage mitigation with Cloak of Fear and Death Shroud. I'll try it at some point.
Dark Armor doesn't have very high resists, so you need the Auras to prevent baddies from beating you up. Cloak of Fear has crappy accuracy (Soul Drain or Rage help here).
Oppressive Gloom and Energy Transfer both do damage to you.
Oppressive Gloom (and stuns) makes 'em drunk-wander out of Death Shroud. With Cloak of Fear, they sit and quiver in it.
Energy Transfer and Total Focus each take about 3 seconds to animate. If you need to use your heal during those 3 seconds, you're SOL, but at least you have Soul Transfer.
In my opinion, Dark Armor still goes best with Dark Melee. The utility powers in Dark Melee patch up all the holes in Dark Armor: Soul Drain for accuracy, Touch of Fear to stack with Cloak of Fear, Siphon Life so you don't live or die on Dark Regen, Dark Consumption to get endurance back *after* Dark Regen or while running Oppressive Gloom... -
Three endurance powers is a bit overkill, but if there's no other powers you'd prefer to take, then go for it.
Build looks fine to me. -
Holy crap, how much do you play? 0 - 50 in less than two weeks with a boatload of inf already invested?
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Quote:And depending on how frequently you ITF, all the broadsword-wielding Cimerorans do the AoE swing every chance they get, plus the Kheldians all have AoEs, and the Elite Bosses get footstomps and that acid snot the Minotaurs blow.Don't drop Ranged defense. I've not went and counted how many more ranged attacks than AoE attacks there are in the game, but I have a feeling you'll take much more damage dropping ranged def rather than AoE def. Just think of all the machineguns (with defense debuffs), rifles, arrows, Cimeroran pilums and assorted blasts that get flung at your over the course of the game.
But yes, if you can live with 10s-15s of downtime on Hasten, then lower recharge may be the best option. -
What powers have you chosen so far?
I don't know if it holds true for critters, but on hero powers, sleeps have higher than normal accuracy.
As a lowbie /SR, you have practically no defense, and you'll never have defense against pure psi attacks, which includes the sleeps. Happily, Practiced Brawler will make you immune to the effects.
Since Practiced Brawler won't be on permanently until you have 2 SO recharges in it, your best bet is to take it, and click it right before you get into a fight with a Madness Mage, or with Ruin Mages who drop those earthquakes that make you flop around. Practiced Brawlers will protect you against nearly every status effect except Terror, but few critters have a Terror power so it's not a big deal.
If you haven't already used your Alternate Build, the next time you're at a trainer, try selecting your alternate build and you can re-choose your powers up to your current level.
If you can work it so you get Practiced Brawler at 10, and the Focus at 18, you'll be sitting pretty. Focus is a knockdown with a 40' range, so if you see a troublesome critter up ahead and PB isn't recharged or active, you can click Focus and start running towards them, and it'll knock the critter down as you get close enough for them to see you. WIN! -
Quote:I had been using Burn when there were too many critters on me Healing Flames wasn't recharging fast enough, but then they sometimes just switch to ranged attacks and decrease Parry's effectiveness.Burn is also very handy on a scrapper, in my opinion. It does AWESOME damage, and can be a lifesaver when you are in over your head. The fear effect can give you enough time to get Healing Flames back up. It's great on teams with someone who can hold them in place for you, and while soloing, it can still do good enough damage because they run in and out all the time.
Quote:I'd agree with the suggestion to suppress close effects, I use it all the time on my fire/fire scrapper and don't notice the aura at all. Blazing aura is a big help in finishing off minions and just adding to your kill speed once you get the endurance issues under control.
I got somewhat stymied yesterday when I realized that aside from armor FX, this would be basically the same ride as my level 50 DM/SR, except that I'd be getting hit all the time. So I'm taking a second look at Blazing Aura for the tics. Perhaps if I turn the Blazing Aura a shade of black, it won't be so visible, and I'll tinker with suppress close fx again. -
Concept is a funny thing.
I'm making a Dark Melee / Fire Armor guy, but not taking Blazing Aura because the pulsing of it makes my eyes bleed. I'll take Combat Jumping instead for the immob protection, and throw a KB IO in there. No Temperature Protection. Probably no Burn. I expect the occasional Soul Drain + Fiery Embrace to give awesome damage, and I'll be going with the Fire epic if this toon gets that far.
I rocked a BS/Fire to the low 30's before deleting it in frustration while running Croatoa and RWZ arcs and getting frustrated at the squishiness... particularly when a slow prevented Healing Flames from coming back ASAP. I'm hoping Siphon Life will make up the difference.
Also pondering putting off Stamina until the 30's, and alternating Dark Consumption and Consume for constant battle-Endurance... although it'd be a 40 second or so gap between them.
Which IO set bonuses best benefit Fire Armor? Recharge to get the heals back faster, with +HP and +Regen, or Defense to avoid getting hit? +Def is difficult to build for with none to build from.
I just like being on fire, and I hope I enjoy this toon. Coalfist is live on Victory! -
Basically, follow Call Me Awesome's guide for soft-capping defense:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=126983
Instead of Reactive Armor, put some Serendipitys or Luck of Gambler into your two defensive armors. Put the Steadfast +def into Hoarfrost. Slot the attacks and Taunt as guided, until soft-capped.
Congratulations, you are now invincible until Rage crashes. So put a pair of EndMod/Rech into Hibernate, and click it when you're just not mad anymore.
Is that enough to get you started? -
I'd re-arrange things a bit (sloppily, using your output), like so, with tips following each choice:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(3), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(3), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(27), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29), RedFtn-EndRdx(29)
You can simply three or four slot this with some Serendipity or Luck of the Gambler for +HP and +regen
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- ImpSwft-Dmg/Slow(A), ImpSwft-Acc/Slow(7), ImpSwft-Rng/Slow(9)
As was said, replace all slows in the attacks with damage; I like four Smashing Haymakers for +def to smashing / lethal, plus any of the acc/dam/rech in a fifth or sixth slot. Same goes for Ice Sword.
Level 2: Ice Sword -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(7), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(9), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), T'Death-Dam%(31)
Stuff Hoarfrost in up here somewhere; replace Miracles with Doctored Wounds and the Steadfast +Def.
Level 24: Hoarfrost -- Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(A), Mrcl-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(33), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mrcl-Heal(36), Mrcl-Rcvry+(37)
Replace with 4 Curtail Speeds for the Smash/Lethal def
Level 4: Chilling Embrace -- P'ngTtl--Rchg%(A), P'ngTtl-Dmg/Slow(5), P'ngTtl-Rng/Slow(5), P'ngTtl-Acc/Slow(31)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Wet Ice becomes power #8
Level 18: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Swap Frost in place of Icicles (Your pref counts, too, if you'd rather sit with things in Icicles or actively beat them down with attacks).
Level 8: Frost -- ImpSwft-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwft-Dmg/Slow(11), ImpSwft-Acc/EndRdx(11), ImpSwft-Rng/Slow(19), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(21), ImpSwft-Dam%(46)
You didn't take Permafrost, but you'll already have nearly-capped slow resistance, so the Winter's Gift unique isn't necessary. You can put in a EndRedux or Run Speed instead. Or a stealth, if that floats your boat.
Level 14: Super Speed -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Ice doesn't need the +recovery unique, and it isn't available until after you have Energy Absorption anyway, which will give you an endless supply of endurance on the battlefield. The Regenerative Tissue +regen is available from level 10, and stacks nicely with Hoarfrost. So unless you really want the two-Numina set bonus (and can get the IOs), I'd go with two plain Healths or the +regen.
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(21)
Swap these around so you get Stamina first in case you want to run a Positron and have endurance at the same time.
Again, unless you REALLY want the set bonuses, three-slot this with standard EndMod enhancements. You won't need the procs, either, since you'll have Stamina while exemp'd down to 15, and if you exemp to 14 or below, you won't have Stamina or the proc available.
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(23), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(33), P'Shift-End%(46)
Level 20: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Now you can run Icicles happily all day, but only if you get some endurance reduction. Cleaving Blow gives the next most useful +def bonus after Eradication, but Eradication has precious little endurance reduction. So I slot:
Cleaving Blow: Acc/Dam, Dam/End
Multistrike: Acc/Dam/End, Acc/End
Scirocco's Dervish: Acc/Dam/End
This gets me into the ED-maxed cap for Acc, Dam, and EndRedux with 5 slots.
Level 12: Icicles -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(13), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(13), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Oblit-%Dam(19)
Energy Absorbtion is happy with 4 slots, two each of the Acc/Endmod/Rech and Endmod/Rech from Efficacy and Performance. No need for the proc since you'll completely refill the bluebar with 4 critters around, every 30 seconds, and the proc only fires when you activate the power anyway.
Level 26: Energy Absorption
-- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(34), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(34), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(36), P'Shift-End%(50)
I lost track of where I was moving stuff around, but as said, move this up to somewhere closer to 18 when it's available.
Level 28: Glacial Armor -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(31), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), LkGmblr-Def(39), LkGmblr-Rchg+(39)
Personally, I skip Build Up.
Level 30: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
More recharge and jump height is always welcome!
Level 32: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Others recommend skipping this; at least replace Touch of Death with Smashing Haymaker or Kinetic Combat.
Level 35: Greater Ice Sword -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(39), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(40), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), T'Death-Dam%(43)
Re-slot this frankenly for Acc/Dam/Rech/Endredux.
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- IComa-Acc/Rchg(A), IComa-EndRdx/Sleep(42), IComa-Acc/EndRdx(42), IComa-Sleep/Rng(42), IComa-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(43), IComa--Rchg%(43)
No need for two sleeps, both PBAoE, since your Icicles and Ice Patch (and teammates) will wake things up. However, I took this on my Ice/Stone, half for concept but mainly for the -Def debuff it gives. Frankenslotted for Acc/Rech/DefDebuff and it comes in handy on the ITF.
Level 41: Salt Crystals -- LgcRps-EndRdx/Sleep(A), LgcRps-Sleep/Rng(45), LgcRps-Acc/Rchg(45), LgcRps-Acc/Sleep(48), LgcRps-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(48)
Even without slotting your auras and attacks for slow, you'll have everything around you slowed to the cap. Re-slot this for recharge and DefDebuff.
Level 44: Quick Sand -- ImpSwft-Dmg/Slow(A), ImpSwft-Rng/Slow(45), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(46)
This looks fine, but if you can get 1 more slot you can get the 6.25% Recharge bonus. Otherwise, replace the EndRdx/Stun and Stun/Rng with Acc/Recharge from the other Stun sets. The purple Absolute Amazements are cheaper than the Touches of Death you shouldn't be using and are handy here.
Level 47: Stalagmites -- Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(A), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(48), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(50), Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I
Sorry for sometimes commenting above and sometimes below a power, hope it makes sense.
Basically, to be a gnarly tank, take these powers by level 20:
Frozen Armor
Hoarfrost
Chilling Embrace
Wet Ice
Glacial Armor
Stamina
By 30, have:
Icicles
Energy Absorbtion
Ice Patch
Freezing Touch
Taunt (if you want it, and you can get great +Def set bonuses from the Taunt sets)
You will now be practically unhittable, except against Nemesis and Devouring Earth... and maybe Rikti... and anything else with +toHit or defense debuffs. Kick back and enjoy tanking to 50! -
Quote:The "worst" thing about Fire Armor is that you get no inherent knockback or immobilization protection, so you either have to take extra powers (Combat Jumping / Acrobatics) or plan out IO bonuses to compensate.All of my past chars have been range-oriented... blaster, defender, mastermind. I want to take a whack at tanking, but I have absolutely no clue about what is most important to look for in a build for any melee character. I know there are tons of guides out there, but can anyone recommend a simple/easy tank powerset? At first I wanted to do fire/?, but that got some mediocre reviews.
To be a good melee dude, you need to be able to stay on your feet long enough to defeat whatever's hitting you back. To be an excellent Tank, you need to be able to take all the damage of up to 17 critters attacking you instead of your teammates. There's three paths to this:
Resist the damage (ex: you get hit for 100 damage but only take 30 damage) :
Dark Armor
Electric Armor
Fiery Armor
Invulnerability
Stone Armor
Avoid the damage (Defense, they don't hit you):
Ice Armor
Shield Defense (mix of Def + a Resist tier 9)
Heal back the damage:
Willpower
(Note: All the sets except Willpower get a click heal of some sort, Shield's being in the Tier 9)
Caveats:
Dark and Fiery Armor have no KB protection; Fire's immob protection comes in Burn at 18.
Electric Armor has no KB protection when you're not standing on the ground (this can include staircases).
Shield has no status protection at all when Active Defense isn't recharged.
Stone Armor gets massive status protection in exchange for mobility, recharge, and damage.
Invulnerability can get maxed-out defense to most damage on top of being incredibly damage resistant, and it makes you stronger the more baddies surround you, so that's a big plus.
Willpower makes you heal faster the more baddies surround you, with a big Resist-based Tier 9, so is super easy to play.
I'd agree that Willpower matures the earliest, being fully functional by 12 with Quick Recovery, full status protection, some damage resistance, and some healing already in effect. SOs / IOs only make it better.
Resistance-based sets get tough soon after, but often need Stamina if you want to attack with toggles up.
Defense sets mature last, needing SO/IO level enhancements to get defense % up to snuff.
The other thing that keeps you alive is mitigation - when your armors or attacks prevent the baddies from attacking back.
Dark Armor has Cloak of Fear, Oppressive Gloom, and Soul Drain
Fiery Armor has Burn
Electric Armor has Power Sink (endurance drain)
Ice Armor has Chilling Embrace (slow, -damage)
Shield has Shield Charge
Stone has Mud Pots
Willpower has Rise to the Challenge (debuffs foe ToHit)
Each of the attack sets except Fire Melee has a mitigating secondary effect, either knockdown, knockback, -ToHit, stun, slow, etc.
So you can either decide what you want your character to look/act like and then pick sets that match, or pick devastating & long-lasting combos and design the character to match.
Quote:WP gets a lot of recommendation, but I can't really suggest it for a first tanker due to the difficulty in holding aggro. WP has by far the weakest taunt aura of all tankers... it's 1.25 seconds base duration compared to Invuln's 16.9 second base duration. -
Quote:I keep thinking you are going to post your Tank's name or build or something for us to review.ok. Thanks for the replies.
Just wondering if it was just me. To be honest the only character I have this issue with is my 31 Tank, so I was just wondering if it was a population thing or....?
Do you have a name like "w00t w0ck3ts!!!" or other funky spelling that might be scaring casual observers away?
You say you don't have this problem with your other heroes, so here's a question: How many Tanks to do you suppose most teams" think" they need?
I'm betting it's one, maybe two. So if a team has 1 tank, they're not likely to go looking for more, unless they just want to fill the team. And since you're back from a long break and don't have a set of friends/SG/global channel pals to team with, you're just waiting for some random team to need another Tank and to find you in the Find thingie.
Try this, next time you're online and alone: Pull up the Find thingie. Change the AT to Tank, and the level menu to all levels, and press Find. How many other Tanks are online right then? If it's more than will fit in the results pane, and loads of 'em are not on teams, then you're waiting for some team to pick you at random from all those tanks just for their team.
But now you're ready for Step 2! Click a few of those dudes and invite them to your team! Then change the AT to something else, and invite a few more people! If you're feeling really wild and crazy, try changing the AT to Peacebringer or Warshade! If you think YOU feel excluded, just think up how infrequently people deliberately go looking for Kheldians!!! -
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If you scroll down a bit, it seems like every 5th thread is on elec tanks and there's at least one build in each.
My elec tank is level 30, so my sage advice is to take the powers. Slot 3 resist in each armor except Grounded. Put some recharge/heal in the heal, and some recharge/endmod in the endurance power. Then go punch something! -
lol, PvP.
Yeah, the low-damage PBAoE auras never were the PvP game-winners. Fantastic and useful in PvE, though. -
Quote:I'd say that even without all those IO sets it'd be viable for end game play!A few highlights: No unstoppable, no Perma DP, traded off for Capped S/L defense, nearly capped F/C/E/N defense (With 1 person in range) while maintaining capped S/L resistance. Not using the glad's proc because I don't want to gather another 2 billion for another toon. Would this Tanker be viable for end game play?
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Electric, until I think up a new theme for a Shield tank.
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And so here concludes yet another session of:
- Even the crappy tanks are still tanks, and
- Having fun is Priority #1 of a game -
And any time you add a new bin (inspirations or enhancements or salvage, etc) you have to change the permissions for that bin. It's a really annoying thing to forget to do.
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I don't think there's any danger of critters entirely defeating each other during the 1.5 second duration, and as long as you get any damage in, you get xp.
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So basically, your "guide" is to take ranged blasts and not melee, but to not use the ranged attack from the secondary?
Why did you go with /Electricity? Why not /Energy for Boost Range, Power Boost, and Build Up, plus a level 1 power that knocks enemies out of melee?
Or /Devices if you want the immob to be only an immob? Plus the other utility powers, and the Gun Drone with its ranged attacks?
Or even why not /Mental for the ranged Scare?