Kinetics, a re-balancing suggestion
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2012-08-10 07:12 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
That's fair, especially since Kinetics gets tools to let it burn End faster early with no relief until much later.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
In addendum to this, I say lower the end cost on Siphon Power. That's the one big thing that prevents me from using it, especially at lower levels.
|
Quote:
| For IR, that makes sense, but I also kinda like that Kin has a few "skippable" powers. Makes it easier to construct a build. |
Quote:
| Also, since IR is very easily perma-able (like, one recharge enhancement), I doubt the defense bonus would be allowed to be too much. If it was substantial (like over 5%), the recharge on the power would have to be increased, which would mean that it would fail in its primary function: a travel power. Unless you think it would be fun to "run out" of IR halfway through a jump, land in a pit, then have to wait 30+ seconds before you could jump out. |
Quote:
| As per number 4, the devs have shown they can give powers different effects that last different amounts of time (like in Chrono shift, the +recharge portion lasts longer than the +Heal). So perhaps they could do something similar for ID: 2-4 minute Damage Res, 60 second mez resist. I think that would be fair enough =) |
Having the resistance last longer would be nice too.
We'll always have Paragon.
It is limited by tohit and radius. No need for any form of more balancing.
Quote:
Let us not forget that even though the Kheldian player might have left the team an hour ago, the bad guys still thought he was there. So it wasn't just the Kheldian feeling this love.
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That would be because Kheldians really enjoyed having their own special foe, that did irresistible damage, or spawned endless legions of pets. I mean it was such fun, people used to demand Kheldians on the team.
|
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
I must not be "most" kin players because FS is no where near overpowered.|
Originally Posted by Sensaround
I'm sure most kinetics users would agree that fulcrum shift is a bit, umm, overpowered.
|
#1 It needs to hit it's target
#2 If the target dies you waste it
#3 It potentially draws tons of aggro on the caster
#4 Kins have very little other damage mitigation
#5 You must be in the radius for it to take effect
Also FS is best against large groups which teams cut through easily anyway and is less desirable against single targets such as AVs . I can think of east 3 sets that outshine Kins in this respect.
Also as far as increasing recharge times goes for FS or any other powers in Kinetics... stop it. It's KINETICS It's supposed to be fast!
On behalf of my 5 Kins, Leave FS alone!
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Quote:
I'm one of the players that feeds you (and others) those inspirations.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
What's puzzling is that for every player that does this as I do (and all you need is /auctionhouse and a moderate amount of inf, which is not THAT small a group of players... er, I think), there has to be dozens or even hundreds of players that look at a Righteous Rage and say "this isn't useful, I'd rather have a paltry sum of influence".
|
I have the Inner Inspiration power. Every 30 minutes, I get three random medium or large inspirations.
Small inspirations, I eat like candy. I almost always have a few in effect on me. Medium inspirations, I save for tough spots, but still use frequently. Large inspirations tend to be Too Awesome To Use, even though I know I shouldn't look at them that way.
I happily throw Influence at the Market like it's going out of style, though, so I load all those inspirations I won't use on the Market for 1 Inf each, knowing that I'll get a fair bit more than that, and it'll be something that I actually use.
I agree that it may seem like a "paltry sum" to a 50, but to someone who rolls a LOT of new alts, the ability to have several million by level 20, just by clicking a power and putting inspirations on the Market is handy, and makes sure that I always have the Inf to buy TO/DO/SOs and/or craft common IOs out of the salvage that drops, without having to resort to marketeering or mailing Inf from alts.
@Roderick
Quote:
Only in the sense that, if the target dies, you have nothing to punch with your MASSIVE DAMAGE BOOST. Except the other dude that didn't die.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
#2 If the target dies you waste it
|
A while ago, they fixed it so that enemy-targeted heals and buffs still heal and buff if the enemy dies before the power completes, as long as the power successfully targets them (ie, the enemy isn't dead before casting), and the to hit roll succeeds.
@Roderick
Quote:
I missed that in the notes, must have happened between the SB/ID changes when all my Kins were retired. I haven't noticed the change since I started playing them again.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Only in the sense that, if the target dies, you have nothing to punch with your MASSIVE DAMAGE BOOST. Except the other dude that didn't die.
A while ago, they fixed it so that enemy-targeted heals and buffs still heal and buff if the enemy dies before the power completes, as long as the power successfully targets them (ie, the enemy isn't dead before casting), and the to hit roll succeeds. |
Also the power does not work on shifted foes much like Haunt which makes fighting Carnies a PITA.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Oh yet another nerf Kinetics thread disguised as a "re-balancing" discussion. Cute, semi-effective and a better disguise than most of the recent nerf herder threads.
The answer is still no, but you get a golf clap for the college try.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Kinetics doesn't really need a rebalancing. It is an enjoyable set and really not overpowered at all. Fulcrum Shift is amazing, yes, but Kinetics offers almost nothing in the way of survivability. The entire point of Kinetics is "offense is the best defense", to kill the enemy before they have a chance to kill you. Unlike other support sets (Time, Dark, FF, Sonic, Therm) which make it nearly impossible to kill you.
It is very well balanced to its brethren.
Next thing you know people will be saying Rad and Dark are overpowered and needs re-balancing because of their -To Hit, -Res and healing centered around the caster.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Quote:
Not that I feel that it needs nerfed, but with regards to these specific points:|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
#1 It needs to hit it's target
#2 If the target dies you waste it <snip> #5 You must be in the radius for it to take effect |
Fulcrum Shift summons a buff pet around the user along with the debuff pet around the target. I think that the debuff pet still fails to summon the damage buff pets if the main target dies - although I haven't specifically checked recently, I don't remember getting a huge buff during a Lambda run where the target died and other mobs were still upright - but regardless it doesn't need to hit to provide you and everyone within 20' of you a buff of either 40% or 50% +damage depending on your AT. It needs a target to start. It doesn't need to hit the target for this to happen (and this part of the power is, in fact, flagged as autohit).
That's still the +damage portion of Forge on everyone around you all at once and is easily permanent and stackable, even if there are no other targets hit. It's not as nice, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "wasted".
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
If your goal is to make inf, don't list them at 1.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
I'm one of the players that feeds you (and others) those inspirations.
I have the Inner Inspiration power. Every 30 minutes, I get three random medium or large inspirations. Small inspirations, I eat like candy. I almost always have a few in effect on me. Medium inspirations, I save for tough spots, but still use frequently. Large inspirations tend to be Too Awesome To Use, even though I know I shouldn't look at them that way. I happily throw Influence at the Market like it's going out of style, though, so I load all those inspirations I won't use on the Market for 1 Inf each, knowing that I'll get a fair bit more than that, and it'll be something that I actually use. I agree that it may seem like a "paltry sum" to a 50, but to someone who rolls a LOT of new alts, the ability to have several million by level 20, just by clicking a power and putting inspirations on the Market is handy, and makes sure that I always have the Inf to buy TO/DO/SOs and/or craft common IOs out of the salvage that drops, without having to resort to marketeering or mailing Inf from alts. |
List them for 1 more than the market hoover is paying, in this case 55,556.
Chances are you'll get 100k instead of 30 or 50.
The thing I do with Inner Inspiration on my low level guys is pop it off whenever it recharges, list the "good" ones with an eye toward making a few hundred K each, and save the crummy ones for combining into purples which reliably bring in 3-500k.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
*bow*|
Originally Posted by Roderick
I'm one of the players that feeds you (and others) those inspirations.
|
Thank you for the explanation, and also for helping to make my hilariously extravagant practices sustainable.
Quote:
I don't NEED Inf, I just want to get enough to work with, and I want it NOW. I don't care if I could get more if I were to wait for later, I have other things I do for that. I just want something in my piggy bank the instant I start a new character, and I'm too lazy to switch between characters a couple of times to do it.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
If your goal is to make inf, don't list them at 1.
List them for 1 more than the market hoover is paying, in this case 55,556. Chances are you'll get 100k instead of 30 or 50. The thing I do with Inner Inspiration on my low level guys is pop it off whenever it recharges, list the "good" ones with an eye toward making a few hundred K each, and save the crummy ones for combining into purples which reliably bring in 3-500k. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
*bow*
Thank you for the explanation, and also for helping to make my hilariously extravagant practices sustainable. |
@Roderick
Quote:
No need to switch characters, just list for 1 inf more than the hoover.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
I don't NEED Inf, I just want to get enough to work with, and I want it NOW. I don't care if I could get more if I were to wait for later, I have other things I do for that. I just want something in my piggy bank the instant I start a new character, and I'm too lazy to switch between characters a couple of times to do it.
|
I'll always take 100k over 50k for the exact same effort, but I suppose in the grand scheme of things it doesn't make any difference. 50k, 100k, 1m, 10m, it's all pocket change for anyone who uses the market as more than a dumping ground for drops.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
It's all pocket change for someone who does use the market as a dumping ground for drops. That's all I do. I may polish things a bit (Convert 3 Large Blue insps to a Large Purple, craft my common salvage into common IOs, craft a LotG: Def/Rech and convert it), but the only reason that I'm not swimming in inf is that I spend it as fast as I make it.
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
No need to switch characters, just list for 1 inf more than the hoover.
I'll always take 100k over 50k for the exact same effort, but I suppose in the grand scheme of things it doesn't make any difference. 50k, 100k, 1m, 10m, it's all pocket change for anyone who uses the market as more than a dumping ground for drops. |
@Roderick
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I missed that in the notes, must have happened between the SB/ID changes when all my Kins were retired. I haven't noticed the change since I started playing them again.
Also the power does not work on shifted foes much like Haunt which makes fighting Carnies a PITA. |
Yep, as my main is a Kinetics/Rad Blast Def. the changes where you can use Transfusion/Transference and Fulcrum Shift even if the mob dies and you still get the benefit was and still is one of the best changes/fixes EVER in the game, to me at least.
Oh and to the OP....NO! No touchy-Kinetics! No!
Mmmm...Kins....
You can only touch kinetics if you add two things to the Fulcrum Shift power....
1.) Add the heal radius effects for each target and make it heal for as much as Transfusion would on the target.
2.) Add the endurance heal radius effects for ecah target and make it give as much endurance as Transference would on the target.
That's about the only thing I'll approve change-wise for Kinetics (others may suggest things too but for me that's all I want)
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
Quote:
Well with all due respect Darth. The OP is the Union leader of the Federal Coalition of NPC Bad Guys in MMO Games. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Oh yet another nerf Kinetics thread disguised as a "re-balancing" discussion. Cute, semi-effective and a better disguise than most of the recent nerf herder threads.
The answer is still no, but you get a golf clap for the college try. |
Thus being a representative F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G. it is in his duty to make sure all players are fair and impartial when engaging any member of F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G.
Being the Secretary of F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G. it is my duty to record complaints and bring them to the attention of leadership for review.
It has come our attention with a certain crowd which will not be named. But we can call them Balta that this said power Fulcrum Shift was decreasing the OMGWFTDIDIGETHITWITH Ownage lately.
So it only fair he report this in the attempt to bring about some mediation in regards to this situation for his membership.
So be warned, do wrong against F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G. and we will be there with our lawyers and respond back accordingly.
BTW we will be holding a petition in front of portal corps lasting for 1 hour then we are heading over to the beach by the Arena area for some fun. For those interested.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
This is a ridiculous argument. I challenge you to find a power which can easily bring you close to the damage cap all the time. Add together all the damage buffs you can get from IOs, as well as the buffs from perma-buildup (aka Rage) and you will still come nowhere near the cap that Fulcrum Shift can help you approach.|
Originally Posted by Necromatic
With all the +damage out there already, I find speed boost being the more useful power from a kinetics teammate.
|
Sure the benefit from Speed Boost is great, but what makes a team plow through mobs faster than anything is fulcrum shift.
Quote:
I am confused, what does "unideal performance" mean. At least Fulcrum Shift will boost you +60% (assuming you get both sides of the buff) from one enemy. Thats a hefty bonus which is not ridiculous, but hardly bad. Blasters with maximum defiance buff can barely scratch 45% buff.
|
Originally Posted by Garent
It's one of those powers with a very large gap between ideal performance and unideal performance.
|
Quote:
A tanker with sufficient recharge to double stack Rage, a full set of level 50 damage IOs (I tested with Crushing Impact, but other sets would work too), Musculature Core Paragon Alpha, and 7% damage buff from sets (2-4 set bonuses needed to achieve this) has perma capped damage.
|
Originally Posted by Talesin
This is a ridiculous argument. I challenge you to find a power which can easily bring you close to the damage cap all the time. Add together all the damage buffs you can get from IOs, as well as the buffs from perma-buildup (aka Rage) and you will still come nowhere near the cap that Fulcrum Shift can help you approach.
|
@Roderick
Quote:
Forcefields can help people reach the defense cap that's true.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Forcefields lets the team hit the defense softcap to all positions AND provides all the squishies with mez protection.
Sonic Resonance lets the team hit their various resistance caps AND provides the squishies with mez protection. In fact, the only Buff/Debuff set that doesn't let you hit a cap of some kind is Trick Arrow and IMO is the only support set that needs a re-balance. All the others do exactly what they are supposed to do the way they are supposed to do it. |
Sonic Resonance will not help anyone except those with their own resistances (and high ones at that) reach their resistance caps.
Cold Domination will let you hit the endurance recovery cap but not on a perma basis. Also, who ever needs the end recovery cap anyway. It is a useless cap. Personally I think the recharge and duration on Heat Loss should be what Fulcrum Shift should be. I also think that the devs thought so since the power is an endurance equivalent to Fulcrum Shift anyway.
Dark Miasma/Darkness Affinity will not help you reach any caps at all.
Empathy will take one person to the end recovery cap (if AB is slotted for end mod). This is also not perma.
Poison will take you nowhere.
Rad will not cap anything either, but that doesn't make it bad.
Storm will not cap anything too. But it will make you hard to hit if you use hurricane and have it slotted for lots of -to hit.
Thermal will not cap anything.
Time Manipulation will not cap anything.
As you said Trick Arrow will also not let you cap to anything.
So to wrap up, your argument about caps in buff sets is wholly untrue, unless you consider buffs the player brings to the party. Only Fulcrum Shift can bring you close to the cap without any help (or so close to the cap that it is essentially immaterial). Forcefields will get you close but only when you find a way to combine it with Power Boost (which I think is ridiculous as well).
Quote:
Brilliant. Why didn't I think of that?! They should nerf multiple inspirations too!
|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
This is a silly thread.
But, just to go with the flow and pretend it's not a silly thread, Fulcrum Shift is not particularly overpowered as long as I can do this:    |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by NeverDark
Fulcrum Shift has the Psychic Shockwave problem: it's better than it should be, but the rest of the set needs help, so it gets ignored. Kinetics could use a couple of changes.
1.) Increase the recharge on Fulcrum Shift. 60 seconds base, in a set with Siphon Speed, for a power that can cap a team's damage is pretty ridiculous. It's available every spawn. Increasing its recharge clamps that down without removing the strength of the power. 2.) Improve the strength of Siphon Power. It's half as strong as each stack of Fulcrum Shift. Making it more potent would give the set better debuffing power and make the early levels easier. 3.) Give Inertial Reduction +Defense. The power is practically skippable as is, especially now that travel is so much easier. Giving it some mitigation makes it valuable in battle, and it shores up one of the weaknesses of Kinetics. 4.) Increase the duration of Increase Density. The reasoning behind the low duration on most grantable mez protection is that they're supposed to be used reactively. This doesn't work for Increase Density, because you can't reactively free someone from Knockback. Making it last longer means less reapplying, and as a bonus it makes the resistance last longer as well. |
I don't understand how buffing Kinetics more will make Fulcrum Shift more balanced.
1. You would need to seriously nerf the recharge on Fulcrum Shift to make the rest of your suggestions more reasonable. I'm thinking 16 minute recharge. I know this is a bit over the top.
2. Siphon Power is stackable without any recharge enhancement and buffs you and the team for a reasonable amount especially considering its a low lvl power. It is only crappy when you compare it to the ridiculous buffs in Fulcrum Shift. Think about it this way (buffs are always better than debuffs since no one ever fights mobs below their level). People scream in joy at the additional damage someone does to a mob sitting on top of a Tar Patch (which debuffs resistance 30%). The buff from Siphon power is superior to the debuff from Tar Patch (at least for how much damage the enemy takes) unless you are fighting even level cons.
3. I agree that Inertial Reduction is largely skippable. That doesn't mean that you need to buff the set. There are many powers which make you wonder what the devs were thinking, although in this case it makes "thematic" sense.
4. I agree about Increase Density duration, but at the same time, if you increased the duration too much you will just turn the power into something which is better (18.75% on a controller) than the resistance shield from Sonic Resonance (15% on a controller). This also doesn't take into account that you can give them grantable mez protection. It is also superior to many other -mez powers in other sets (think Clarity from Sonic) since it can be applied to many people at the same time.
Gonna disagree here with the standard reply. Kinetics is a bit OP. Yes, you can hit caps all other sorts of ways, but none as easily, and none can you try quite so often.. And that's just a discussion of FS, not to mention the insane utility of SB, especially now that it's AOE. and still recharges almost instantly. If it's recharge was more like AM, well, then the set might be a bit more balanced, but, it's not...
That said. It's not perfectly balanced. It's obvious that a well built Kin that's well played is awesome like little else... If anything else...
But, it's high end is gated beyond investment cost, annoyance, skill, and general fragility, especially during leveling...
Even though the high end is stupid high, I'd vote to leave it alone.
Of course, as a Kinetics Def player, I'm obviously biased.