Kinetics, a re-balancing suggestion

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorSteele

For IR, that makes sense, but I also kinda like that Kin has a few "skippable" powers. Makes it easier to construct a build. Also, since IR is very easily perma-able (like, one recharge enhancement), I doubt the defense bonus would be allowed to be too much. If it was substantial (like over 5%), the recharge on the power would have to be increased, which would mean that it would fail in its primary function: a travel power. Unless you think it would be fun to "run out" of IR halfway through a jump, land in a pit, then have to wait 30+ seconds before you could jump out.

IR is permable with no recharge in it at all. It lasts 60 seconds and recharges in 60 seconds. Since it is not a stackable buff(from the same controller/defender), overlapping it does nothing. It is far better to put additional jump enhancement in it as it will give all your team incredible jumping abilities. However most people don't require it since they have their own travel powers.

Roderick · 08-13-2012 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

Brilliant. Why didn't I think of that?! They should nerf multiple inspirations too!

They did, but only in AE.

Ever heard of multi-quote, dude?

@Roderick

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Harmony

Damage buffs are easy to come by.

Did you know that any full team doing Hero Tips can achieve +320% damage for 30 seconds at the mere cost of a 3.67s animation?

That's Call To Justice, the alignment power, that applies a team To Hit and Damage buff.

But how many times have you seen a team do the "Avengers Assemble" before a group, or even an AV?

I find Kinetics to be a really well balanced set. It's fast and dicey and you never feel safe like you do with almost all other support sets, but Transfusion props it up in the early game. It offers Transference and Fulcrum Shift later on, and then in the late game performs surprisingly well against AVs due to the damage debuffs.

You are being a little silly here. You can achieve the same buff levels with other coordinated temporary powers/inspirations. Proving something else is broken does not magically make Fulcrum Shift "fixed". It just goes to show how the devs miss the ways that people can break their game. What is sad is that the devs created this broken thing (Fulcrum Shift) which is much easier to apply since it take absolutely no coordination from the team to achieve.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImpulseKing

You forgot repel. Carnie bosses stacked in a corner ftw.

On topic, I think the OP is overlooking that Fulcrum Shift still requires some skill to use well. If it were a toggle that said "Everyone I know and their cat is now at the damage cap with a press of this magic button" then yeah many fewer would argue. He also assumes a team.

I agree with the first part partially. It can take some skill to make Fulcrum Shift reach the heights that it can achieve but even on the low end it is better. The 40% buff you get (which is the lowest you can go) is superior to the -resistance you get from a toggle on and forget power (like Enervatings -22.5%). It is also much easier to apply and sticks to you regardless of whether or not the target dies.

Garent · 08-13-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

I am confused, what does "unideal performance" mean.

Worst case scenario with fulcrum shift is your team is nowhere around and you give yourself a damage buff and debuff the enemies a bit. It's hardly a bad scenario, but when you compare it to the ideal scenario, which is fulcrum shift coming off cooldown at the exact moment you engage each fresh group and damage cap your whole team through the whole mission, there's a really big gap.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Klaw_

It is limited by tohit and radius. No need for any form of more balancing.

The radius on the debuff portion of the power is a 30ft sphere. That is hardly bad. Very few AOE powers are that good.

The radius on the buff portion of the power is a 20ft sphere. Also hardly something to use as an argument.

To hit limitations are a little ridiculous. You need to hit that's true, but its just the first guy you need to hit, and who doesn't slot sufficient accuracy at lvl 32 or 38 to make this possible. Sure at lvl 32 or 38 it might be less than great, but everything sucks with no slots (except maybe repel and IR).

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack

I must not be "most" kin players because FS is no where near overpowered.

#1 It needs to hit it's target
#2 If the target dies you waste it
#3 It potentially draws tons of aggro on the caster
#4 Kins have very little other damage mitigation
#5 You must be in the radius for it to take effect

Also FS is best against large groups which teams cut through easily anyway and is less desirable against single targets such as AVs . I can think of east 3 sets that outshine Kins in this respect.

Also as far as increasing recharge times goes for FS or any other powers in Kinetics... stop it. It's KINETICS It's supposed to be fast!
On behalf of my 5 Kins, Leave FS alone!

WOW. Lets start at #1.

#1 You need to hit. Thats undeniable. Many (but not all) debuffs in the game require to hit checks.

#2 If the target dies you still get your 40%. 40% is good especially on a perma capable damage buff.

#3 Many if not all debuffs in the game generate aggro. Put a snow-storm on someone, put a tar patch under their feet and they are gonna go after you. I can only think of one debuff in the game which generates no aggro (the one in the Bane Spider set).

#4 Kins get serious amounts of -damage. This is not as good as getting additional defense but then again it isn't nothing. If you fought even level mobs, the -damage portion of Fulcrum Shift alone would dwarf the strength of the shields offered by Sonic Resonance. Also don't forget that healing is mitigation and the -end in Transference can seriously neuter a boss.

#5 See my previous posts about the radius. 30ft for the debuff, 20 ft for the buff. Not too shabby.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei

Oh yet another nerf Kinetics thread disguised as a "re-balancing" discussion. Cute, semi-effective and a better disguise than most of the recent nerf herder threads.

The answer is still no, but you get a golf clap for the college try.

Calling for something to be fixed is hardly bad play. I thought that helping the devs make things in the game work better (balance) was a general benefit to the game.

I suggest you come up with an actual argument instead of just trying to shut someone down from making a point. Too bad you aren't up to the effort involved.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Grim

Kinetics doesn't really need a rebalancing. It is an enjoyable set and really not overpowered at all. Fulcrum Shift is amazing, yes, but Kinetics offers almost nothing in the way of survivability. The entire point of Kinetics is "offense is the best defense", to kill the enemy before they have a chance to kill you. Unlike other support sets (Time, Dark, FF, Sonic, Therm) which make it nearly impossible to kill you.

It is very well balanced to its brethren.

I would agree with you about the all offense and no defense thing if the set didn't have the following...

-20% damage debuff in Fulcrum Shift
-20% damage debuff in Siphon Power
Melee Zone of Denial with Repel
+18.75% resists to Smashing and Energy (for the Team not you).
+10 mez protection from Stuns, Holds, Immobilize (for the Team not you).
-40% endurance debuff in Transference
-10% endurance debuff in Transfusion
209.11 heal at lvl 50 in Transfusion

Sounds like no mitigation there at all!

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion

Yep, as my main is a Kinetics/Rad Blast Def. the changes where you can use Transfusion/Transference and Fulcrum Shift even if the mob dies and you still get the benefit was and still is one of the best changes/fixes EVER in the game, to me at least.

Oh and to the OP....NO! No touchy-Kinetics! No!

Mmmm...Kins....

You can only touch kinetics if you add two things to the Fulcrum Shift power....

1.) Add the heal radius effects for each target and make it heal for as much as Transfusion would on the target.

2.) Add the endurance heal radius effects for ecah target and make it give as much endurance as Transference would on the target.

That's about the only thing I'll approve change-wise for Kinetics (others may suggest things too but for me that's all I want)

I thought that devs are the ones who approve such changes. Since you are a dev I will defer to you.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainguy

Well with all due respect Darth. The OP is the Union leader of the Federal Coalition of NPC Bad Guys in MMO Games.

Thus being a representative F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G. it is in his duty to make sure all players are fair and impartial when engaging any member of F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G.

Being the Secretary of F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G. it is my duty to record complaints and bring them to the attention of leadership for review.

It has come our attention with a certain crowd which will not be named. But we can call them Balta that this said power Fulcrum Shift was decreasing the OMGWFTDIDIGETHITWITH Ownage lately.

So it only fair he report this in the attempt to bring about some mediation in regards to this situation for his membership.

So be warned, do wrong against F.C.N.B.G.M.M.O.G. and we will be there with our lawyers and respond back accordingly.

BTW we will be holding a petition in front of portal corps lasting for 1 hour then we are heading over to the beach by the Arena area for some fun. For those interested.

Awesome reply.

Evil_Legacy · 08-13-2012 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensaround

I'm sure most kinetics users would agree that fulcrum shift is a bit, umm, overpowered. The ability to easily bring an entire team to the damage cap in short order on a frequent (read: near perma) basis is imbalancing compared to every other tier 9 power. But I think that nerfing it is a terrible idea. People are very attached to kinetics, it would create a lot of ill will among the players if this beloved power was reduced in effectiveness.
So don't reduce it. Instead, share the wealth. If a kinetics character is on a team, allow for a chance of a kinetic enemy in every enemy group, similar to spawning void seekers and crystals when a kheldian is present. How's that for dramatic tension? Any given combat you could be on the receiving end of fulcrum shifted damage! Wouldn't that be exciting?
While we're at it, I think other sets could benefit from similar treatment. How about some super strength/fire enemies? Better be careful going toe-to-toe with these guys. Enemy electric or kinetic stalkers? As long as kinetic combat is bugged crit-wise, let's keep it interesting. So many fun possibilities.
I can imagine seeing this message in the LFG channel:
Level 50 team LF5M. No kinetics!

Just a thought. :-)

Sensaround

Interesting concept.
I think some tsoo people that use kinetics could do with some fulcrim shift. Then, teams would jusrt avoid tsoo in my idea. But with your ideas, there is not much way to avoid it (with a kin on the team) since it's random. and not matter on the mob at hand. That would very interesting if it was someway impletemented.
And the crit-melee bug, the bug that many people love and dont mind if they take thier time fixin it. But when the tables are turned, and the mob start using this bug, would there be an outcry to fix it quick? probably. But would be interesting to see nonetheless with mobs that also have crit bugged kin melee.
this idea good concept, not nerf monger thread, just a different creative way to rebalance.

-Female Player-

Quote:

Originally Posted by mauk2

Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard.

Never change, E_L!

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roderick

A tanker with sufficient recharge to double stack Rage, a full set of level 50 damage IOs (I tested with Crushing Impact, but other sets would work too), Musculature Core Paragon Alpha, and 7% damage buff from sets (2-4 set bonuses needed to achieve this) has perma capped damage.

Ok. Thats great. How much money/levels does a tank need to get there? How much money/levels does a kin need to get to achieve that for the ENTIRE team?

Don't get me started on Rage. The fact that it is perma-build up is ridiculous, and that you can self stack it is just piling on the ridiculousness.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roderick

They did, but only in AE.

Ever heard of multi-quote, dude?

I apologize for not using multiple quotes. I am not that experienced at using this forum system. Still I think I had things to contribute. Please don't take my lack of acumen with the system to mean that I know little about the game.

Sensaround · 08-13-2012 08:57 PM

"Well with all due respect Darth. The OP is the Union leader of the Federal Coalition of NPC Bad Guys in MMO Games."

Loved this, thank you.

Superhero in his spare time.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garent

Worst case scenario with fulcrum shift is your team is nowhere around and you give yourself a damage buff and debuff the enemies a bit. It's hardly a bad scenario, but when you compare it to the ideal scenario, which is fulcrum shift coming off cooldown at the exact moment you engage each fresh group and damage cap your whole team through the whole mission, there's a really big gap.

Ok I understand now. The spectrum for Fulcrum Shift goes like this (on a controller, defender numbers would be higher)...

Low End- Good single target buff for you. (40%)
Low Middle End- Good multi-player buff for you and others near you. (40%)
Middle- Great multi-player buff for you and others near you. (60-120%)
Middle High End- Great multi-player buff for you and others near you. (110-180%)
High End- Great Buff for everyone (240%)

There is a lot of difference between the high and low end on Fulcrum Shift. However, it hardly seems bad to me even on the low side.

Disappearing Girl · 08-13-2012 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

4. I agree about Increase Density duration, but at the same time, if you increased the duration too much you will just turn the power into something which is better (18.75% on a controller) than the resistance shield from Sonic Resonance (15% on a controller). This also doesn't take into account that you can give them grantable mez protection. It is also superior to many other -mez powers in other sets (think Clarity from Sonic) since it can be applied to many people at the same time.

The Mez protection isn't AoE, only the energy resist.

Mad Grim · 08-13-2012 09:29 PM

Talesin, there IS a way to get multiple quotes in one message.

No, Kinetics doesn't have a complete lack of mitigation. But the majority is buffing damage and recharge. Those numbers you mentioned are almost worthless compared to other support sets.

Fulcrum shift is fine as is.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disappearing Girl

The Mez protection isn't AoE, only the energy resist.

Wow that is news to me. I just checked on City of Data and the power is flagged the way you described. The Energy and Smashing resist components are AOE but the mez protections are not. I assume that is because the devs wanted the Kin player to use the power as a break from a mez as opposed to offering protection. Still it is better than Clarity.

Mad Grim · 08-13-2012 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

Wow that is news to me. I just checked on City of Data and the power is flagged the way you described. The Energy and Smashing resist components are AOE but the mez protections are not. I assume that is because the devs wanted the Kin player to use the power as a break from a mez as opposed to offering protection. Still it is better than Clarity.

Better than clarity isn't a large compliment.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Grim

Talesin, there IS a way to get multiple quotes in one message.

No, Kinetics doesn't have a complete lack of mitigation. But the majority is buffing damage and recharge. Those numbers you mentioned are almost worthless compared to other support sets.

Fulcrum shift is fine as is.

I know there is a way, I apologized above for not knowing how.

I agree that the mitigation from kin is less than that of other sets, but it is not nothing. In fact most debuff sets suffer greatly in this game due to the scaling of powers based on the level of the enemy. The same can be said of Dark Miasma, Poison, and dare I say it, Rad. If you fight +3, +4, or +5 mobs then most of what you do with debuffs is ruined by the scaling.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Grim

Better than clarity isn't a large compliment.

Ok. I agree Clarity is kinda on the suck side of things. How about Antidote? Or maybe Clear Mind? Or Thaw? Where does Increase Density lie on the spectrum? Still at the top based on my observations.

Hopeling · 08-13-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

Sure the benefit from Speed Boost is great, but what makes a team plow through mobs faster than anything is competence.

ftfy

Many of the most amazing steamroller teams I've ever experienced had nobody with Kinetics. Some of the most painful and ineffective teams I've been on had at least one Kinetics character. Fulcrum Shift can be awesome, of course, but in general use (even under good conditions) it's not incredibly superior to a good -res power. 9 out of 14 archetypes don't even have a high enough damage cap to get full benefit from a saturated Fulcrum Shift.

Also, holy cow Talesin, multi-quote or no (it's the little square button on the bottom right of each post, with a " and a +), you don't need to compose an individual rebuttal to every post in the thread.

Talesin · 08-13-2012 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeling

ftfy

Many of the most amazing steamroller teams I've ever experienced had nobody with Kinetics. Some of the most painful and ineffective teams I've been on had at least one Kinetics character. Fulcrum Shift can be awesome, of course, but in general use (even under good conditions) it's not incredibly superior to a good -res power. 9 out of 14 archetypes don't even have a high enough damage cap to get full benefit from a saturated Fulcrum Shift.

Also, holy cow Talesin, multi-quote or no (it's the little square button on the bottom right of each post, with a " and a +), you don't need to compose an individual rebuttal to every post in the thread.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Hopeling. I agree for the most part, competence is a big indicator of success. However as a power gets more and more away from the norm, the role of competence becomes less and less relevant.

A friend and I just discussed it and did a little math which made it clear to us that a -res power is generally twice as effective as a +dam power when fighting even lvl con mobs. That goes a long way to explain the -30% res power in Tar Patch or Freezing Rain when compared to the positive +40% base dam buff in Fulcrum. However, the reality of the way people play this game is that they rarely fight even level con mobs. At +2 the difference pretty much evens out. This still doesn't take into account that the +40% damage buff is the least amount of buff you will gain from FS. The buff doesn't scale by the level of the mob. The -res in Tar Patch and Freezing Rain, etc. is reduced by level scaling (aka Purple Patch) and by mob resistances. Therefore Fulcrum Shift still wins the contest in most situations.

Draeth Darkstar · 08-13-2012 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

I know there is a way, I apologized above for not knowing how.

I agree that the mitigation from kin is less than that of other sets, but it is not nothing. In fact most debuff sets suffer greatly in this game due to the scaling of powers based on the level of the enemy. The same can be said of Dark Miasma, Poison, and dare I say it, Rad. If you fight +3, +4, or +5 mobs then most of what you do with debuffs is ruined by the scaling.

Any cry of "Overpowered!" in the name of a support set being better than Dark or Rad is... basically insane. Both of those sets are at least as good as Kinetics, and they're both significantly more versatile.

@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]

Code:

I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.