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2short2care

By 2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-08-03 10:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
I know them well. I suggest you look at them again with a more open mind, and in light of what Prometheus says (and where it is clearly indicated that he is lying).
Might want to loosen that tinfoil hat, buddy.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
The Rikti have a civil war abrewing and they were able to learn magic
Niether of which happened until they came to Primal Earth, and hence into contact with the Primal Well.

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Their Well is the same as The Well of all humans in all dimensions. A race's Well is pandimensional.
Possibly, although I suspect the developers aren't as pedantic over the lore as some players...

Regardless, they altered/tainted/cut themselves off from the aspect of the Well in their universe. That's the only way the could have defeated the Battalion. Prometheus admits the Battalion draw their power by consuming wells.

I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzero45 View Post
Might want to loosen that tinfoil hat, buddy.
You might want to read the text more closely, which is is clearly written in such a way as to indicate duplicity. (Oh, and Paragon Wiki is out of date with regards to Prometheus dialogue (some of which is in the SSAs).

Dream Doctor is another useful source of info (if you think he can be trusted).

I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Niether of which happened until they came to Primal Earth, and hence into contact with the Primal Well.
There is no "Primal Well." It's the same Well for every damn dimension, including the Rikti's. This is why Emperor Cole was considered its Champion. Wells are only different from planet to planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
There is no "Primal Well." It's the same Well for every damn dimension, including the Rikti's. This is why Emperor Cole was considered its Champion. Wells are only different from planet to planet.
This is what I mean by players being more pedantic than developers. You are putting together two separate pieces of information written by two different writers at two different times. There is no guarantee that the current writers have done the same thing.

Regardless, it's not a significant issue. "It was only the part of the Well in the Rikti dimension that was affected".

So long as they are in their own dimension, they, and the Battalion, are at least partially cut off from the Well, leading to loss of magic, loss of individualism and cultural stagnation. When they travel to Primal Earth they reconnect with the Well, leading to the rediscovery of magic and a rise in individualism, and eventually, civil war and cultural change.

I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
This is what I mean by players being more pedantic than developers. You are putting together two separate pieces of information written by two different writers at two different times. There is no guarantee that the current writers have done the same thing.

Regardless, it's not a significant issue. "It was only the part of the Well in the Rikti dimension that was affected".

So long as they are in their own dimension, they, and the Battalion, are at least partially cut off from the Well, leading to loss of magic, loss of individualism and cultural stagnation. When they travel to Primal Earth they reconnect with the Well, leading to the rediscovery of magic and a rise in individualism, and eventually, civil war and cultural change.

 

Posted

I was under the impression that the Rikti turned themselves into the Rikti as we know them to beat the Battalion.

Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.

 

Posted

PRAF, you appear to be completely making up stuff at this point, unless you want to actually show some proof.

The basis of your argument appears to be that you are a more reliable source of information about the game's lore than the game's lore itself.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
This is what I mean by players being more pedantic than developers. You are putting together two separate pieces of information written by two different writers at two different times. There is no guarantee that the current writers have done the same thing.

Regardless, it's not a significant issue. "It was only the part of the Well in the Rikti dimension that was affected".

So long as they are in their own dimension, they, and the Battalion, are at least partially cut off from the Well, leading to loss of magic, loss of individualism and cultural stagnation. When they travel to Primal Earth they reconnect with the Well, leading to the rediscovery of magic and a rise in individualism, and eventually, civil war and cultural change.
Wow. So much wrong in one post.

The Rikti have beaten off the Battalion. Fact.

The Rikti's lack of magic was self inflicted by cutting themselves off from 'the gods' (which we now know are Well-powered beings), so, no Mu bloodline. Fact.

The Well that powers Cole in one dimension is the same Well that powers us in the Primal dimension. Fact. And... very recent information from the Dev-content team. Any attempt to wave this away as being retconned is ludicrous.

You put this in quotes: "It was only the part of the Well in the Rikti dimension that was affected". Where the heck are you quoting that from?

Your theory has no legs to stand on.

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Posted

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
This.


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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
The Rikti have beaten off the Battalion. Fact.

 

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See, what has happened here is he has said something stupid, and rather admit his mistake or just leave, he is trying to defend the stupidity despite knowing it was stupid.

In short, its stupid.

 

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...I just had a thought.

The Rikti defeated the Battalion apparently by getting rid of their gods, magic, the Well, etc.

Will we... be able to defeat the Battalion without doing the same...?

to TO THE END!
Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cursedsorcerer View Post
...I just had a thought.

The Rikti defeated the Battalion apparently by getting rid of their gods, magic, the Well, etc.

Will we... be able to defeat the Battalion without doing the same...?
Probably. We're awesome.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Premonitions View Post
I was under the impression that the Rikti turned themselves into the Rikti as we know them to beat the Battalion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cursedsorcerer View Post
...I just had a thought.

The Rikti defeated the Battalion apparently by getting rid of their gods, magic, the Well, etc.

Will we... be able to defeat the Battalion without doing the same...?
The Rikti shrugged off their gods thousands of years ago.

Thousands of years ago a visitor(s) helped them become a psi-aware species.

Defeating the Battalion was just a hundred years ago.

From a clue from Serpent Drummer's arc:

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After the initial wars to unify the planet thousands of years ago, the Lineage of War was very small, only rising to prominence during a very few infrequent civil wars and insurrections. Their last big operation was against an alien force called the Battalion about 100 years ago. Since then, their power had been tapering off to its normal ceremonial levels until the start of the war with Earth.
So, no, the Rikti did not become godless antimagical psy-linked just to defeat the Battalion.

Also, becoming antimagical and godless is *not* a sign of disassociating from their/our Well. On Primal Earth we have plenty of non-magical non-god-worshipping Incarnates drawing power from the Well. They developed their Psy Potential... presumably interdependently with their/our Well. The Rikti did not disconnect from The Well... they disconnected their gods from The Well.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
The Rikti have beaten off the Battalion. Fact.
Actually, it says "their last action was against the Battalion". It does NOT say they won (although I assume they did).

It does not say HOW they won. However, one thing is certain: it has NOTHING to do with superior technology. The Battalion are a cosmic level threat, completely beyond any technology, just as incarnates are beyond tech origin heroes. If this wasn't case, it wouldn't be a Coming Storm, it would be a Coming Light Shower.

For the Battalion to be a serious threat to Paragon, the Rikti must have won because of what is different about them, or they could be defeated just as easily by Paragon. What is different? No Magic, no gods.

How does this connect to the Well? Prometheus, when asked about the Battalion (and this hasn't been added to Pargon Wiki yet) tells you that they gain power from Wells. He explains that they will be difficult to beat because Paragon has so many Incarnates (hence all the heroes that try to stop you in Mender Ramil's arc). Magic stems from the Well (as do the other origins). Thus, getting rid of magic is going to affect/weaken the Well. He also mentions that there are alternative sources of power to the Well: Ascended. Rularu is one. Which would explain why Silos sabotaged Dream Doctor's attempt to destroy Rularu. His plan is to use Rularu as an alternative source of power to the Well, since the Well cannot be used against the Battalion - it only makes them stronger.

This plays into what the developers have planned for the game: Once Omega is reached take away "Incarnate" status and replace it with "Ascended".

Quote:
Thousands of years ago a visitor(s) helped them become a psi-aware species.
Yes. Mysterious visitors. (This was originally the Battalion, but was ret-conned when RWZ was added). Mysterious visitors from Ouroboros?

I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Actually, it says "their last action was against the Battalion". It does NOT say they won (although I assume they did).

It does not say HOW they won. However, one thing is certain: it has NOTHING to do with superior technology. The Battalion are a cosmic level threat, completely beyond any technology, just as incarnates are beyond tech origin heroes. If this wasn't case, it wouldn't be a Coming Storm, it would be a Coming Light Shower.
Unless they beat them, say, before they became as much of a threat as they are now.
Maybe this even encouraged them(The Battalion) to become stronger. alterntively. The Battalion of The Rikti Dimension might have been pushovers.

Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Premonitions View Post
Unless they beat them, say, before they became as much of a threat as they are now.
Maybe this even encouraged them(The Battalion) to become stronger. alterntively. The Battalion of The Rikti Dimension might have been pushovers.
The Battalion are pan-dimensional and have been around a long time. You can learn this from Prometheus.

But yes, they have become more of a threat to Primal Earth, because Primal Earth now has lots of Incarnates, and the Well has grown more powerful. You can get this from Prometheus too.

I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Actually, it says "their last action was against the Battalion". It does NOT say they won (although I assume they did).

It does not say HOW they won. However, one thing is certain: it has NOTHING to do with superior technology. The Battalion are a cosmic level threat, completely beyond any technology, just as incarnates are beyond tech origin heroes. If this wasn't case, it wouldn't be a Coming Storm, it would be a Coming Light Shower.

For the Battalion to be a serious threat to Paragon, the Rikti must have won because of what is different about them, or they could be defeated just as easily by Paragon. What is different? No Magic, no gods.

How does this connect to the Well? Prometheus, when asked about the Battalion (and this hasn't been added to Pargon Wiki yet) tells you that they gain power from Wells. He explains that they will be difficult to beat because Paragon has so many Incarnates (hence all the heroes that try to stop you in Mender Ramil's arc). Magic stems from the Well (as do the other origins). Thus, getting rid of magic is going to affect/weaken the Well. He also mentions that there are alternative sources of power to the Well: Ascended. Rularu is one. Which would explain why Silos sabotaged Dream Doctor's attempt to destroy Rularu. His plan is to use Rularu as an alternative source of power to the Well, since the Well cannot be used against the Battalion - it only makes them stronger.

This plays into what the developers have planned for the game: Once Omega is reached take away "Incarnate" status and replace it with "Ascended".



Yes. Mysterious visitors. (This was originally the Battalion, but was ret-conned when RWZ was added). Mysterious visitors from Ouroboros?
That's a lot of cool opinion, man.

 

Posted

Totally aside from the Rikti lore thing, I think you're overreading the whole "Angels = Battalion" thing.

From what we learn in First Ward and especially Night Ward, it appears that the Talons of Vengeance were likely at some point locked in the same Eternal Prison they are trying to open throughout the Night Ward storyline. (Source : Mistress Nadia in the Ward Arc. See? Some of us can quote sources ! ). This possibility is strenghtened by the fact that Lamashtu, the daemon goddess imprisonned therein, is refered by the ToV as their All-Mother, indicating a strong link. (Source : Magician Arc in NW)

My take on all this is that the Angels are linked to the Prison (possibly its custodians, or the entities responsible for establishing it and setting up the Black Knights as the custodians - the BKs are named as said guardians in Ward's arc) and the "heretics" they are chasing to Night Ward are the ToV - their view on Vengeance certainly is a travesty of what the original Greco-Roman Furies stood for. If the ToV escaped the Eternal Prison as is suggested, the angels could very well be chasing them - but humans defeating both Lamashtu and the Mother Keres in the Dream Doctor arc makes their intervention unneeded.

Note, I have no SOLID proof of that, but it seems less far-fetched to me than saying those guys are Battalion forerunners.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by cursedsorcerer View Post
...I just had a thought.

The Rikti defeated the Battalion apparently by getting rid of their gods, magic, the Well, etc.

Will we... be able to defeat the Battalion without doing the same...?
I'd hope so, considering the Rikti are about as strong as all-soldier groups of Council.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netphenix5 View Post
Totally aside from the Rikti lore thing, I think you're overreading the whole "Angels = Battalion" thing.

From what we learn in First Ward and especially Night Ward, it appears that the Talons of Vengeance were likely at some point locked in the same Eternal Prison they are trying to open throughout the Night Ward storyline. (Source : Mistress Nadia in the Ward Arc. See? Some of us can quote sources ! ). This possibility is strenghtened by the fact that Lamashtu, the daemon goddess imprisonned therein, is refered by the ToV as their All-Mother, indicating a strong link. (Source : Magician Arc in NW)

My take on all this is that the Angels are linked to the Prison (possibly its custodians, or the entities responsible for establishing it and setting up the Black Knights as the custodians - the BKs are named as said guardians in Ward's arc) and the "heretics" they are chasing to Night Ward are the ToV - their view on Vengeance certainly is a travesty of what the original Greco-Roman Furies stood for. If the ToV escaped the Eternal Prison as is suggested, the angels could very well be chasing them - but humans defeating both Lamashtu and the Mother Keres in the Dream Doctor arc makes their intervention unneeded.

Note, I have no SOLID proof of that, but it seems less far-fetched to me than saying those guys are Battalion forerunners.
That's my speculation as well. They've got more in common with the Talons, perhaps being their opposite number. Where the Talons are about Vengeance, the Angels are about Justice. Rightousness instead of Revenge.

Or who knows?

I am wary of them bringing angelic imagery into the game, especially since that tends to mean we have to fight them. And while I am well aware that angelic imagery is extremely old, and has similarities to imagery in other ancient Middle Eastern mythologies... in the back of my head there's a little voice going "We're going to have to fight these guys some day, aren't we?"

I find it rather distasteful, not to mention bad storytelling, if we're forced to list the Celestial Host and God as just another AV. I don't think we should go anywhere near stuff like Heaven, the angels, God, or saying "Oh well, here's the reality behind MAJOR REAL WORLD RELIGION WITH BILLIONS OF FOLLOWERS."

It's bad storytelling because you can't go up from there. Kind of hard to top beating up the infinite armies of Heaven and the souls of everyone there as you storm the Pearly Gates for farming iXP.

It's also just a very bad idea. People get worked up over religion. Taking a stance one way or another on a religious thing in the game? Like, oh, the existence of God, the nature of God or His messengers, etc? That's going to be ugly.

Now these angels being the wardens of the Eternal Prison, or something like that, who use angelic imagery? Fine. "Are you angels?" "We've been called a lot of things. We'll let you make up your own mind."

That or just say that they use the angelic form because that was the closest cultural analog appearance they could find. Like the Vorlons in Babylon 5.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xzero45 View Post
That's a lot of cool opinion, man.
LOL, I see what u did there.

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Posted

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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend View Post
That's my speculation as well.
Well, glad to see I'm making sense to at least one person.

 

Posted

I'm more inclined to the opinion that the Battalion are aliens who pass themselves off as angels, rather than the real thing...

Anyway, I've been trying to find what Prometheus says about the Battalion, but I think I must have read it on the beta server, so I will say no more on the matter for now.

I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

I don't think the 'angels' are Battalion, I just thought it'd be cool. And no, not like actual angels or anything silly like that, but just a group using angelic imagery.