City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Generictized names

Ad Astra

By Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-07-06 01:20 in Player Questions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
The devs threw in the towel on player rights when they settled the Marvel case, it being cheaper to sell out your players than wrestle a corporate behemoth with lawyers on salary.
Don't blame the devs for what happened with that lawsuit. That was "resolved" by people farther up the corporate ladder. Also Cryptic was still running the game back then.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
The devs threw in the towel on player rights
What, like Free Speech and... oh, wait. This is a GAME. So any talk of 'rights' is probably in jest. Carry on.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Don't blame the devs for what happened with that lawsuit. That was "resolved" by people farther up the corporate ladder. Also Cryptic was still running the game back then.
This is true.
Apologies to the devs, and in future I'll remember to properly attribute the ridiculous settlement to NC Soft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
What, like Free Speech and... oh, wait. This is a GAME. So any talk of 'rights' is probably in jest. Carry on.
So you don't think you ought to have any rights just because you're in a game world?

That's an interesting point of view which I don't share.

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Astra View Post
Another type of name that will get you generic'd is using the name of a real life person - you can't make Josef Stalin or Michael Jackson or Barack Obama.
What if your actual real life name is Josef Stalin, Michael Jackson, or Barack Obama? And the character you create is suppose to be yourself with your own name?

 

Posted

Then you'd appeal the rename and provide evidence that you are yourself. (Also, the rule presumably applies mostly to famous names - if I named a character after myself, nobody would know or care, and if somebody randomly chose my name for their character without intentionally trying to make the character me, even I wouldn't care.)

 

Posted

Some creativity will help you get around some of the issues.

Hey U Like Kelp? - For a giant green brute type
Rustproof Fe Male - for an armored avenger
Super Duper Guy - for a bird or an airplane
Billionaire Caveman - for a flying night time rodent

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
So you don't think you ought to have any rights just because you're in a game world?

That's an interesting point of view which I don't share.
Well yes and no. The game world belongs to NC Soft and while playing there we agree to abide by their rules. If we don't like that then we have the right to take our business elsewhere.

Now at the same time I do believe that we have an expectation to certain reasonable rights in our relationship with NCSoft but not anything that I wouldn't expect from any other business. To use an analogy if someone was in a brick and mortar store and was acting in a way that was liable to result in the store getting sued then yeah I would expect the store to kick them out.

The same basic premise applies here. Paragon Studios cannot realistically hope to stop any player from making a copyrighted character if they want to. Due to the nature of the game if you make a copy of copyrighted character in-game then Paragon Studios is technically guilty of copyright infringement (since they are distributing copies of that character for profit).

 

Posted

I've not seen any change, really, in how they handle genericing people.

The lawsuit really didn't change anything, just ended with the game continuing to do what it was doing.

Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatred666 View Post
What if your actual real life name is Josef Stalin, Michael Jackson, or Barack Obama? And the character you create is suppose to be yourself with your own name?
The EULA prohibits identifying yourself in-game by your real name. So your example would be gerericable too.

Edit: This prohibition used to be explicitly stated, but it isn't any more. However, from the EULA, Section 11, Paragraph (iii):

Quote:
... You warrant and represent that You will not use any Service, Content or Software to provide any information that could be used, directly or indirectly, by another user of the Game to identify You in the real world. ...

@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
So you don't think you ought to have any rights just because you're in a game world?

That's an interesting point of view which I don't share.
If everyone has rights then there is nothing wrong with the owners of an IP that they have copyrighted/trademarked enforcing their rights by filing a lawsuit when they find out people are using their IP without their permission.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatred666 View Post
What if your actual real life name is Josef Stalin, Michael Jackson, or Barack Obama? And the character you create is suppose to be yourself with your own name?
Did you actually read this? I'll bold the important part.

Quote:
8. PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING NCSOFT

You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of NCsoft, do any of the following:

(a) Misappropriate, violate or infringe any third-party IP right;
You are not a "third party" so you cannot violate a third party's rights if you are using your own name. You can give NCSoft "permission" to use your own likeness or something you yourself created.

The "third party" being referred to in the EULA is anyone who is not you or NCSoft.

Someone mentioned Jim Butcher and how he plays a character from his novels in this game. He can do that because he actually owns the IP rights to the character he made in the game. He isn't violating a third parties IP rights.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
So you don't think you ought to have any rights just because you're in a game world?
No. The game is private property. The servers, on which characters are stored, are private property. You agree to abide by NCSoft rules every time you log in. There are no issues of "rights" involved. None.

An analogy: If you come into my house and sit in my living room, you don't have any rights to say whatever you like. Offend me and I'll toss your butt bodily into the street. Ditto for this game. You're playing in their court with their ball, by their rules. You don't have any rights.

I used to fiddle with my back feet music for a black onyx. My entire room absorbed every echo. The music was . . . thud like. The music was . . . thud like. I usually played such things as rough-neck and thug. Opaque melodies that would bug most people. Music from the other side of the fence.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
So you don't think you ought to have any rights just because you're in a game world?

That's an interesting point of view which I don't share.
Just like any other business transaction, your rights are either spelled out in a service agreement or follow generally accepted practice for the industry in question (i.e. I don't sign off on anything when I go to the grocery store).

To talk about NCSoft selling out their players rights in the dispute with Marvel is absurd. Your rights in the context of the game are whatever is allowed to you by the business. If you don't find the terms and conditions acceptable, then you leave.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Although you could probably make the argument for a public domain character, as a rule the EULA is pretty straight forward. No copies of registered, trademarked, or copyrighted characters.

Good rule of thumb: If you to think to yourself "Is this toon to close to "Toon X?" or "Hey, this is a pretty nifty tribute to "Toon X!" Then you should probably re-roll

It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets

... Hit it ...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
If everyone has rights then there is nothing wrong with the owners of an IP that they have copyrighted/trademarked enforcing their rights by filing a lawsuit when they find out people are using their IP without their permission.
Sure they have the right to sue.
And since they had the deeper pockets, they were able to put over a ridiculously overreaching settlement on NC.
So hurrah for freedom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSLAnimal View Post
No. The game is private property. The servers, on which characters are stored, are private property. You agree to abide by NCSoft rules every time you log in. There are no issues of "rights" involved. None.
Sure there are.
There's a legal document spelling them out, correct?
So yeah, there are issues of "rights".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
To talk about NCSoft selling out their players rights in the dispute with Marvel is absurd.
Players had much more leeway pre-settlement than post.
So yeah, that's selling out the players because it was cheaper than continuing to litigate in the interest of a better result.


It's always interesting to me how violently passionate some folk become in support of the rights of corporations to supersede their own.

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post


Players had much more leeway pre-settlement than post.
So yeah, that's selling out the players because it was cheaper than continuing to litigate in the interest of a better result.


It's always interesting to me how violently passionate some folk become in support of the rights of corporations to supersede their own.
Actually, those same rules were already in effect before the lawsuit. Players didn't have any more leeway then than they do now.

I saw plenty of Hulk, Superman, Green Lantern, Wolverine, Iron Man, Cyclops and other clones get the Generic tag before the lawsuit.

Did some slip past for a while? Sure. But if/when they were reported the GM's Generic'd them, the same as they do now.

If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Justice View Post
Actually, those same rules were already in effect before the lawsuit. Players didn't have any more leeway then than they do now.
sure they did.

the obvious stuff still got gaffed, but the culture of paranoia over EVERYTHING THAT MIGHT POSSIBLY BE CONSTRUED AS EVEN FAINTLY RELATED TO SOMETHING ELSE wasn't present.

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

I've seen no such "culture of paranoia" that you describe. Especially since your comment was in response to a remark about the NCSoft/Cryptic vs. Marvel suit.

Which is likely why Golden-Girl wasn't generic'd long ago.

And we actually do have a bit more leeway now than we did then.

Before, if the character got Generic'd there was no way to appeal the process. A player could try to make their case for why it wasn't an IP violation all they wanted but they paid no attention to it. Once you were Generic's there was no getting it changed.

Now, you can appeal it and have it escalated to a more senior CS person. They may not change their minds, but you can at least try to make your case as to why the character isn't an IP violation. Jim Butcher has had to do that several times with his Harry Dresden character in the game.

If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
sure they did.

the obvious stuff still got gaffed, but the culture of paranoia over EVERYTHING THAT MIGHT POSSIBLY BE CONSTRUED AS EVEN FAINTLY RELATED TO SOMETHING ELSE wasn't present.
What I've seen more than anything is a culture of "OH NOE THAT MIGHT AFFEND SOMEONE I AM NOT AND THEREFORE MUST GO!"

Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Sure they have the right to sue.
And since they had the deeper pockets, they were able to put over a ridiculously overreaching settlement on NC.
So hurrah for freedom?
The only people that won were the lawyers.

Quote:
It's always interesting to me how violently passionate some folk become in support of the rights of corporations to supersede their own.
Yeah people couldn't possibly be thinking of protecting the rights of individuals like authors and artists. Nope, they have to be supporting the rights of corporations.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
So you don't think you ought to have any rights just because you're in a game world?

That's an interesting point of view which I don't share.
I don't think I don't deserve to have rights.

But I also don't think I have the right to use an intellectual property I don't own inside a video game I don't own. Especially when I have been informed I'm not allowed to do that, and agree not to every time I log in.

There is a big difference between believing you have the right to do something, and doing it anyway after you've agreed not to.

Same thing as getting upset for being kicked out of a restaurant for lighting up a cigarette at your table when the restaurant has "No Smoking" signs everywhere.

Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you have the right to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatred666 View Post
What if your actual real life name is Josef Stalin, Michael Jackson, or Barack Obama? And the character you create is suppose to be yourself with your own name?
Heard about a guy in the game whose real name is Steve Rogers. He was wondering if he would get in trouble for making a Shield Defense character named after himself. Don't know how it turned out.

(Steve Rogers is the real name of Captain America)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper View Post
I seem to recall stories on the forums of Jim Butcher running around as one of his characters from The Dresden Files, getting generic'd and then then having the name restored on the basis that he owns the character.
I'm guessing FF/Energy Defender? Level-locked at about 10th level or so judging by how much he struggles in the books.....

"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Players had much more leeway pre-settlement than post.
So yeah, that's selling out the players because it was cheaper than continuing to litigate in the interest of a better result.

It's always interesting to me how violently passionate some folk become in support of the rights of corporations to supersede their own.
<snort> It's called being realistic. The in-game rights are what NCSoft chooses to give us. Lamenting the perceived injustice does not serve a purpose.

As for calling it "selling out the players", call it whatever you want. Call it an outrage. Call it A LITERAL SLAP IN THE FACE (that's always a popular one). It was a business decision. Anyone who feels strongly about it can take their business elsewhere. As for me, it's a game - why should I care?

It's always amusing to me how bent out of shape people can get over a game. And I contend that anyone preaching about rights in a game is 'bent out of shape' about it.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatred666 View Post
What if your actual real life name is Josef Stalin, Michael Jackson, or Barack Obama?

Or Jim Butcher.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post

Heard about a guy in the game whose real name is Steve Rogers. He was wondering if he would get in trouble for making a Shield Defense character named after himself. Don't know how it turned out.

(Steve Rogers is the real name of Captain America)
If reported, it's get generic'd. His only defense also violates the terms of service.

Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.