Blaster Changes Don't Fix Electric


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Sypher, are you a native English speaker?


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I thought plenty of people were happy with these buffs.
right but there's always loud ones that aren't.


 

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Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta View Post
are you arrogant?

thats a question you should ask yourself before you try correcting my grammer or insinuating otherwise.
Yes.

You should consider using capital letters to start sentences and the occasional line break. It would make your posts easier to read and give a better impression. Or you can ignore that advice, but I think you would get a more receptive audience if you took an extra 10-60 seconds per post.

You might think blasters are not broken, but I am having trouble recalling a time when they added this much mitigation to anything while also admitting that it still may not be enough.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Electric Blast's problem in my opinion is the effectively non-existent secondary.

End Drain means nothing until its all gone.
The -endurance on all powers is pretty much negligible apart from Short Circuit, to the extent that an Electrical Blaster will drain an enemy's health bar well before they drain their endurance bar.

Short Circuit requires standing in close with a 3 second animation.

I'd compare it to Ice Blast. By attacking, the enemy's damage output is gradually reduced. No slotting required, no extra animations to do this, just a free debuff as you do your primary goal of damage.

Electrical Blast should work the same - attacking say an even con boss with your single target and AoE attacks should cause them to be drained
around half way through their health bar, thus halving their damage output over the fight?

That would be worth giving up a Tier 3 blast for.

I also completely approve of reducing the cast time on Voltaic Sentinel.

BTW, I think the fast-snipe change is a brilliant idea on the whole. The fast-AS change has made my Stalkers a joy to play, I expect to get some of the same feeling on Blasters when this rolls out.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta View Post
thats a question you should ask yourself before you try correcting my grammer or insinuating otherwise.
Insinuate otherwise of what?


 

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Unfortunately if they were going to put the time into changing how NPCs use endurance to turn sapping into a more workable debuff/control mechanic it would likely have been done for Elec Control. Instead they met the problem during Beta and the solution was to change what the power in question was for.

This leaves Elec/ being very similar to Radiation, the secondary effects being largely irrelevant and the most of the powers being broadly similar. 3 ST including a mez, 1 PBAoE, 1 TAoE, Aim and Nuke. Elec gets Voltaic Sentinel, Rad gets a cone.

The does give us an obvious and consistent fix for Elec's lacking single target damage: give Tesla Cage the same treatment as many other low damage single target mezzes have gained over the last 11 issues. Bump damage up to ~122.6 as befits a 10s recharge power and cut the hold effect to ~9.5s. Basically a slightly less powerful version of post i24 Cosmic Burst.


 

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Originally Posted by Edana View Post
The does give us an obvious and consistent fix for Elec's lacking single target damage: give Tesla Cage the same treatment as many other low damage single target mezzes have gained over the last 11 issues. Bump damage up to ~122.6 as befits a 10s recharge power and cut the hold effect to ~9.5s. Basically a slightly less powerful version of post i24 Cosmic Burst.
Definitely. This is exactly what I want, in addition to voltaic sentinel being stackable.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edana View Post
Bump damage up to ~122.6 as befits a 10s recharge power and cut the hold effect to ~9.5s. Basically a slightly less powerful version of post i24 Cosmic Burst.
The really sad thing is, Tesla Cage's hold duration is currently 8 seconds. I really think all the single target stuns and holds should be bumped to ~12 seconds and Scare and Touch of Fear (or whatever it's new name will be) should be ~17 seconds.

I'd also make Tesla Cage's -recovery last 12 seconds.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
The really sad thing is, Tesla Cage's hold duration is currently 8 seconds.
Hm... Ah.

Assuming Mids is right that's because there is no Ranged_Hold modifier. Every time they add a new hold to a blast set they pick something that looks close. We've got Dark using Ranged_Immob, Ice and DP using Ranged_Sleep; then Tesla Cage references the Ranged_Ones modifier instead of something with the correct value.

Wonder if they even know that. Definitely looks like a bug.


 

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They know it, just don't have a need to do anything about it, typically. They can set the hold duration to match the power.

I did see, above, a poster outlining that Electric Blast and Energy Blast do near the same amount of damage. I don't have a lot of time now to follow up on that, but in the morning I'll be checking it out.

EDIT: No offense to Umbral, but I don't know where he was getting his numbers for an Elec Blast attack chain, so it's hard for me to use it as a point of emphasis.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Yes.

You should consider using capital letters to start sentences and the occasional line break. It would make your posts easier to read and give a better impression. Or you can ignore that advice, but I think you would get a more receptive audience if you took an extra 10-60 seconds per post.

You might think blasters are not broken, but I am having trouble recalling a time when they added this much mitigation to anything while also admitting that it still may not be enough.
I'm just starting to digest all of the blaster changes and as I feared its looking like its going to come up short again! However, I'll wait and see what appears on beta first.


H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD

 

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How about giving all of E's attacks (STs and AoEs) a chance to Chain/Jump (like Chain Induction) its damage and drain/recovery debuff? And increasing it's chance to return End to the user?


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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare View Post
How about giving all of E's attacks (STs and AoEs) a chance to Chain/Jump (like Chain Induction) its damage and drain/recovery debuff?
This has occured to a few people. I'm one of the people who thinks it's a cool idea. Jumping to only one target wouldn't do much to increase area damage in the grand scheme of things, but it would do a LOT to make the set feel cooler. And yeah, adding -recovery to the set's attacks would be nice.


 

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Originally Posted by Garent View Post
And yeah, adding -recovery to the set's attacks would be nice.
Say 5 ticks of 80% chance for -50% recovery for 3 seconds with break-on-failure. So a ~32% chance it lasts a full 15 seconds, a 20% chance for nothing at all and on average lasts for 9s.


 

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Originally Posted by Rakeeb View Post
They know it, just don't have a need to do anything about it, typically. They can set the hold duration to match the power.

I did see, above, a poster outlining that Electric Blast and Energy Blast do near the same amount of damage. I don't have a lot of time now to follow up on that, but in the morning I'll be checking it out.

EDIT: No offense to Umbral, but I don't know where he was getting his numbers for an Elec Blast attack chain, so it's hard for me to use it as a point of emphasis.
I wondered the same thing, and it's aboutusing the targetted AOE in the chain for one thing.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I wondered the same thing, and it's aboutusing the targetted AOE in the chain for one thing.
That's exactly what it is. Ball Lightning has a really fast animation time, and on an "IO" build (which I'm guessing means perma-Hasten), it recharges fast enough that you can make a chain that includes it. Only in that case do you wind up significantly better than Energy Blast, and that's only because Energy Blast sees almost zero improvement from recharge, because its single target blasts all have very similar DPA.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
That's exactly what it is. Ball Lightning has a really fast animation time, and on an "IO" build (which I'm guessing means perma-Hasten), it recharges fast enough that you can make a chain that includes it. Only in that case do you wind up significantly better than Energy Blast, and that's only because Energy Blast sees almost zero improvement from recharge, because its single target blasts all have very similar DPA.
So ELB suffers from the same fate as Spines. People aren't thinking of using the AOEs in their ST DPS.

Spines does better with ST DPS when one relies on it's st blast, melee cone, ranged cone, and damage toggle, than relying on any of it's strictly ST melee attacks


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
So ELB suffers from the same fate as Spines. People aren't thinking of using the AOEs in their ST DPS.

Spines does better with ST DPS when one relies on it's st blast, melee cone, ranged cone, and damage toggle, than relying on any of it's strictly ST melee attacks
Yeah. Which is really funny, because the melee AT players consider Ball Lightning to be one of the better epic powers. The issue, though, is that it has a 16 second recharge, making it really difficult to use in a regular chain before high recharge.


Global @Diellan - 5M2M
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
Yeah. Which is really funny, because the melee AT players consider Ball Lightning to be one of the better epic powers. The issue, though, is that it has a 16 second recharge, making it really difficult to use in a regular chain before high recharge.
Eh, that's a problem a lot of melee sets have to contend with as well.

Getting MA's best ST DPS isn't easy to achieve either, and that uses strictly ST attacks.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Rebuttal to Ball Lightning:

Putting Ball Lightning in the chain doesn't allow Elec Blast to compete with the likes of Ice, Fire, and Beam Rifle for the following reasons.

It is not easily attained, making using it during the leveling process quite silly.

It does not enjoy any significant benefit from Hybrid Incarnate powers (the same can be said for Voltaic Sentinel, a fact I intend to point out to the devs in a powers breakdown, because it needs to happen).

It does not contribute effectively to Defiance.

Its' DPA is not good - it's sitting at 48.34 DPA when using Arcanatimes' activations. That's not a good attack. A good attack is at 65-70 minimum. Gravity Well is 74.57. Smite is at 76.64. Bitter Ice Blast is at 108.1. Blaze is a staggering 159. Assassin's Strike in Kinetic Melee is at 166.1. No Electric Blast attacks exceed 55 DPA.

Ball Lightning is not a power that brings Electric Blast into real competition with other blast sets.

Let me make one other thing clear: using Energy Blast as a point of comparison with Electric Blast is a bad idea, because Energy Blast is also bad. Power Burst needs a new animation. I say this simply to show that comparing Electric Blast to Energy Blast and calling it "good" is a logical fallacy, because Energy Blast is *also* bad.

If the development team is serious - and they appear to be - it's time for them to catch up with the player base and include animation times in their balancing formulae. Doing it otherwise is willfully being bad at their jobs, and I think they've moved past that now.

EDIT: To be very blunt about how bad Ball Lightning is, I'd use Electric Fence as filler first. It has virtually equal DPA (lower by a point), lower endurance costs, faster recharge times, benefits more from Hybrid enhancements, can be used while mezzed due to Defiance, better Endurance Drain, and a status effect to boot.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakeeb View Post
Putting Ball Lightning in the chain doesn't allow Elec Blast to compete with the likes of Ice, Fire, and Beam Rifle for the following reasons.
Sigh. Define compete. Does it need to be only 2% lower than Fire? 10%? If the DPA is 30% lower is that too far?

I know it likes to be said that drain is useless, but bosses last longer than 12 seconds usually and they can be drained in that time without huge build requirements. Most people agree that Elec has at least some utility so it is OK to be lower than sets with less utility. How much less is acceptable? I am not sure, my gut tells me it should about 20%, but I could see 30% and not be offended. What range of DPS variance should exist between the bottom and the top?

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Originally Posted by Rakeeb View Post
It is not easily attained, making using it during the leveling process quite silly.
Using Ball Lightning during the leveling process is silly! You heard it here. Look, I know you meant purely for single target attacking, but remember that while leveling Blaze isn't recharging in 4 seconds either. You can see from Umbral's numbers that your point is clearly laid out though, since it is close to the bottom on just SOs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakeeb View Post
It does not enjoy any significant benefit from Hybrid Incarnate powers (the same can be said for Voltaic Sentinel, a fact I intend to point out to the devs in a powers breakdown, because it needs to happen).
How does Assault Core not work with Ball Lightning? How does Support fail to add benefit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakeeb View Post
It does not contribute effectively to Defiance.
True.

Look, when I said Elec should do well against Tyrant, I was trying to say that at the high end (which is where we fight Tyrant) Electric is not terrible and that while other blasters were dealing no damage running away from Flow, VS would still be happily plunking away on Tyrant. I was not saying Elec blasters would outdamage Fire blasters or provide the extra -resist like a Beam could. Just that VS gave them one advantage and that they were middle of the pack, not bottom.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Tyrant has tons of mooks around him, which the VS would be targeting all the time.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakeeb View Post
Its' DPA is not good - it's sitting at 48.34 DPA when using Arcanatimes' activations. That's not a good attack. A good attack is at 65-70 minimum. Gravity Well is 74.57. Smite is at 76.64. Bitter Ice Blast is at 108.1. Blaze is a staggering 159. Assassin's Strike in Kinetic Melee is at 166.1. No Electric Blast attacks exceed 55 DPA.
Well, Voltaic Sentinel is basically 11 DPS for "free" on top of your chain, which is supposed to allow for the overall lack of good DPA attacks. The problem is that the set is short one ST attack power from having a full chain at all (even the top chain with Ball Lightning assumes that you spend some time doing nothing and waiting for recharge).


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Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich

Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?