Electric's fine. It's been fine for a while. It ain't Fire--but what is?
The only tweak I'd make would be to Voltaic Sentinel--it should last 2 to 4 minutes. Maybe give it Short Circuit, too. Most other pets--even semi-pets like Dark Control's Haunts--get two attacks.
I know the lack of a Tier 3 seems to freak some people out. *shrug* I've got a nice, steady Zapp -> Lightning Bolt -> Charged Bolts -> Shocking Bolt -> repeat pattern set up for what ChrisMoses called "hard targets". It hasn't been a problem--at all--on most iTrials if you're not a total moron about positioning. With Volty out (and I've given mine his own Build-Up proc--it works), my single-target damage is certainly on par with any other blaster's, easily.
Most people discount Short Circuit as an AOE power, but it is, and it gives Electric two viable non-nuke AOEs. Furthermore, both Ball Lightning and Short Circuit hit a maximum of 16 foes, and require no repositioning the way cones do if you stand in the middle of the foes you intend to hit. This is no small advantage on iTrials--throw Ball Lightning at a foe in the center, then Short Circuit. Two 16-target AOEs in a row. That's a lot of actual damage, if you add up the amount of damage done to every single foe--and you should, since that's now no longer damage someone else has to do. [Edit: I saw some folks say that the fact that these are Damage-Over-Time makes them useless in the high-end game. BS. Yeah, sure, a lot of people have Judgment... but that really does about 50% damage to the endless hordes of Boss-level foes that populate iTrials. I wind up using Ball Lightning--and watching its entire DOT complete--all the time on iTrials between Judgment cooldowns. All the freakin' time.]
As for Endurance Drain--you can pry that out of my cold, dead hands. I solo'd the Dark Astoria Story Arc Reichsman (Elite Boss version) earlier tonight. End Drain kept him on the ropes throughout the entire fight. He was a helpless kitten from the moment Short Circuit triggered. No inspiration use--just me and my basic powers. Let's see Fire do that.
[Edit: One other thing. Electric is all-Energy, all the time. I've played all kinds of characters up to 50 at this point, and this is a HUGE advantage. Psi? Robots. Zombies. Basically anything without a mind, and it's nickel-and-dime damage time. Smashing/Lethal damage? Again, those robots--and, damn, there seem to be a lot of them--are a serious annoyance, as is virtually everything else. Energy and Negative Energy--really, in that order--are the least resisted, and that means Electric has a built-in advantage because it's not suffering a 10-20% damage loss from the get-go. Granted, Radiation Blast is right up there with it on that front, and Radiation Blast has a lot of other advantages, too, like a ranged stun and lots of good single-target and AOE damage options. I'd say it trades that off for a rather unimpressive secondary effect--in today's game, does anyone really need -Defense Debuffs?]
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Quote:
That chain does about 77 dps before procs and voltaic sentinel. You definitely want to change that chain. An SOed defender can do more than 77 dps.|
Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
I've got a nice, steady Zapp -> Lightning Bolt -> Charged Bolts -> Shocking Bolt -> repeat pattern set up for what ChrisMoses called "hard targets". With Volty out (and I've given mine his own Build-Up proc--it works), my single-target damage is certainly on par with any other blaster's, easily.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
As for Endurance Drain--you can pry that out of my cold, dead hands. I solo'd the Dark Astoria Story Arc Reichsman (Elite Boss version) earlier tonight. End Drain kept him on the ropes throughout the entire fight. He was a helpless kitten from the moment Short Circuit triggered. No inspiration use--just me and my basic powers. Let's see Fire do that.
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I don't think CB is really the minmax type, Garent. He's always been more a Memphis Bill player than a Kruunch player.
I would like for VS to be a real pet that draws its OWN aggro and get a few more attacks. Electric keeps being compared to Fire.. well NOTHING is Fire.. so Fire should be removed from the equation IMO.
I enjoy Electric for some of the very same reasons that Circuit Boy already described.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
Thank you for that display of the problems with playing City of Theory instead of basing estimates on actual in-game experience.|
Originally Posted by Garent
That chain does about 77 dps before procs and voltaic sentinel. You definitely want to change that chain. An SOed defender can do more than 77 dps.
No one wants to get rid of end drain. And yes, it's great when you come across one of the AVs that doesn't resist end drain. The AV version of him on the Khan and Barracuda are vulnerable to it as well. |
The chain may do that in your little Mid's tool, but it does more than that in the actual game, particularly when you've got it set up the way I do.
And, actually, I am a min-maxer. The problem with you guys is you toss things out of the calculation that really need to remain in it, like Voltaic Sentinel and Zapp, just because you don't like them.
Your loss.
[Rakeeb, you claim the AV version of Reichsman on Khan is vulnerable to Endurance Drain? Since when? That must be a new change, because the last times I ran Khan in the actual game, he was, well, invulnerable to everything, including End Drain, while the other AVs were available. As an actual AV, he's got the normal 85('ish)% resistance to End Drain common to all but a very small handful. The reason I could drain him in that mission was he wasn't a busted-down AV (which keep their EndDrain Resists--so annoying), but a baseline Elite Boss, who have no such resists.]
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@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
Quote:
A long time ago, when I was trying to white-knight EB from getting shafted (number wise), I believe it was for the same reason; the exclusion of VS from ST calculations.|
Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
The problem with you guys is you toss things out of the calculation that really need to remain in it, like Voltaic Sentinel and Zapp, just because you don't like them.
Your loss. |
It's been awhile since I've done the numbers (and have probably lost the notes), so I would appreciate if one could redo a ST DPS calc that includes VS. Thanks.
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Quote:
Yeah, wow, that's terrible. Shocking Bolt has ridiculously bad DPA, even worse than Static Discharge, a long animating cone. Short Circuit is better than Shocking Bolt for damage. In fact, Brawl has better DPA. I cannot in good faith suggest to anybody to make Shocking Bolt a regular part of their attack chain, rather than a situational power used for holding annoying targets. Unless you play Devices, you certainly have a single target power in your secondary that is better than that.|
Originally Posted by Garent
That chain does about 77 dps before procs and voltaic sentinel. You definitely want to change that chain. An SOed defender can do more than 77 dps.
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Zapp, on the other hand, is not nearly as abysmal. It's still very poor, but it's got twice the DPA of Shocking Bolt.
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Again, one of the problems of playing City of Theory is that it results in conclusions like this.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
Yeah, wow, that's terrible. Shocking Bolt has ridiculously bad DPA, even worse than Static Discharge, a long animating cone. Short Circuit is better than Shocking Bolt for damage. In fact, Brawl has better DPA. I cannot in good faith suggest to anybody to make Shocking Bolt a regular part of their attack chain, rather than a situational power used for holding annoying targets. Unless you play Devices, you certainly have a single target power in your secondary that is better than that.
Zapp, on the other hand, is not nearly as abysmal. It's still very poor, but it's got twice the DPA of Shocking Bolt. |
Damage-Per-Activation is not the be-all and end-all in determining an attack chain. Sometimes, there are other considerations--like trying to stack Holds on an Boss, or just making sure there's a Hold up for when the PToD drop on an AV. Of course, if you just played City of Theory, you wouldn't really know that.
Similarly, Static Discharge shouldn't be considered as a single-target attack for the purposes of Damage-Per-Activation. If you do that, every AOE comes out looking very poorly indeed. The people who play City of Theory have always--always--done poorly at calculating the true damage an AOE power does.
But so be it. It's things like this that have led me to not post on these boards for about two years or so. I prefer to actually play the game.
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@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
Quote:
Actually, VS is really easy to account for. The little guy deals 44.49 damage every 3.82 seconds (given ArcanaTime), giving it a total contribution of 11.65 dps that is unaffected by recharge or damage buffs (outside enhancements) including Defiance. So you just add that to whatever your chain is, and you're done.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
It's been awhile since I've done the numbers (and have probably lost the notes), so I would appreciate if one could redo a ST DPS calc that includes VS. Thanks.
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A build operating at +140% recharge can do LB > CB > BL > CB > LB > CB > Zapp for 629.36 damage over 13.068 seconds, which is 48.16 dps. VS bumps that up to 59.81 dps. This is without factoring enhancements, which would bump that up to almost double. The theoretical best chain for LB is CB > LB > CB > BL, which takes a ridiculous amount of recharge to pull off (+278%), and deals 291.53 damage over 5.544 seconds, for 52.58 dps - 64.23 dps with VS.
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Hence why I specifically said that it should be a situational power. Stacking holds on a boss is one such situation. There's a difference between "attack chain you use when beating down an AV while buffed to the gills on a team of multiple controllers who surely have it handled" and "soloing a Rikti Mesmerist". But when people ask us about damage, then we're going to talk about damage. I listed the caveats, please do not ignore them.|
Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Again, one of the problems of playing City of Theory is that it results in conclusions like this.
Damage-Per-Activation is not the be-all and end-all in determining an attack chain. Sometimes, there are other considerations--like trying to stack Holds on an Boss, or just making sure there's a Hold up for when the PToD drop on an AV. Of course, if you just played City of Theory, you wouldn't really know that. |
Quote:
| Similarly, Static Discharge shouldn't be considered as a single-target attack for the purposes of Damage-Per-Activation. If you do that, every AOE comes out looking very poorly indeed. The people who play City of Theory have always--always--done poorly at calculating the true damage an AOE power does. |
I have no problems calculating AoE powers, which is why I always suggest them to people, even the long recharging ones like the cone breath powers.
Quote:
| But so be it. It's things like this that have led me to not post on these boards for about two years or so. I prefer to actually play the game. |
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Thanks for the calcs. (...now to find that DPS rankings list...)
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
Actually, VS is really easy to account for. The little guy deals 44.49 damage every 3.82 seconds (given ArcanaTime), giving it a total contribution of 11.65 dps that is unaffected by recharge or damage buffs (outside enhancements) including Defiance. So you just add that to whatever your chain is, and you're done.
A build operating at +140% recharge can do LB > CB > BL > CB > LB > CB > Zapp for 629.36 damage over 13.068 seconds, which is 48.16 dps. VS bumps that up to 59.81 dps. This is without factoring enhancements, which would bump that up to almost double. The theoretical best chain for LB is CB > LB > CB > BL, which takes a ridiculous amount of recharge to pull off (+278%), and deals 291.53 damage over 5.544 seconds, for 52.58 dps - 64.23 dps with VS. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Ok, fully slotted including core musculature paragon, assault and every proc that can be slotted regardless of expense or sanity. Average damage outputs including defiance, procs and VS: -
Zapp : 473.1 Energy + 28.7 Toxic (PvP and snipe procs) + 107.1 Fire (AT proc)
Lightning Bolt : 276 Enegy + 14.35 Toxic (PvP proc) + 35.34 Fire (Ranged purple proc)
Charged Bolts : 168.3 Energy + 14.35 Toxic (PvP proc) + BU Proc
Shocking Bolt : 84 Energy + 14.35 Toxic (PvP proc) + 28.7 Psi (Hold procs) + 35.34 Smashing (Purple hold proc)
Total Damage : 1279.6. Chain cycle time : 9.37 seconds. DPS : 136.56
+VS : 103.3 Energy every 3.82 seconds with a 17% chance of the next shot being 147.8. DPS : 29.02
Total DPS = 165.59.
Of course using this many slots on just procs and damage you'd be relying on global recharge to get everything up in time, accuracy bonuses and tactics to hit stuff and pure recovery to stop you running out of endurance. The ~135 DPS without them is rather more reasonable.
Why are we adding an EPP power, pool powers and incarnate abilities to basic set DPS?
Shouldn't the chain be Zapp, Lightning Bolt, Charged Bolt, VS and Ball Lightning?
And then just calcing in for basic damage; procs as a separate set of comparisons; Incarnate Buffs as a separate set of comparisons?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
Edana was using CB's chain.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Why are we adding an EPP power, pool powers and incarnate abilities to basic set DPS?
Shouldn't the chain be Zapp, Lightning Bolt, Charged Bolt, VS and Ball Lightning? And then just calcing in for basic damage; procs as a separate set of comparisons; Incarnate Buffs as a separate set of comparisons? |
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Indeed. When I started doing the maths his was the last post. I then went and had dinner... Things moved on just a little in the meantime.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
Edana was using CB's chain.
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Basically I was seeing how much it took to make such an unusual chain competitive. The answer was 'a lot'.
ah, I see.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
Perhaps you want to take a second look at what I've said. I wasn't resorting to ad hominems. I didn't attack anyone specifically. I said the misinformation promulgated on these boards is a reason I stopped posting here a long, long time ago. If you felt personally offended, I'm sorry.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
Hence why I specifically said that it should be a situational power. Stacking holds on a boss is one such situation. There's a difference between "attack chain you use when beating down an AV while buffed to the gills on a team of multiple controllers who surely have it handled" and "soloing a Rikti Mesmerist". But when people ask us about damage, then we're going to talk about damage. I listed the caveats, please do not ignore them.
Thank you for making my point for me, which is that the fact that two AoE powers you have access to are better than this ST power when it comes to making a damage oriented attack chain, meaning that not only are you choosing to do less damage against a single target, but you're missing out on the ability to do much much more damage by hitting extra targets. I have no problems calculating AoE powers, which is why I always suggest them to people, even the long recharging ones like the cone breath powers. Well, if you're going to resort to Ad Hominems, be my guest. If it makes you sleep better at night to think that people who can do math don't play this game, don't let me stop you. I just ask that you keep your wounded feelings and holier-than-thou attitude away from reasonable discussion. It's very easy to just put everybody that you disagree with into a box, give it a label, then stereotype them away. Yes, I like math. Yes, I care about game balance. Yes, I am a programmer and I work on Mids. I'm also a heavy RPer and writer, and spend more time doing that than crunching numbers. |
By the way, Voltaic Sentinel's damage CAN be self-enhanced with the Pet Build-Up Proc. Works pretty well, in fact, and I said it earlier.
Regarding AOEs, once again, City of Theory rears its ugly head. Sure, you can create an attack chain using AOEs... ...and then wait for their recharges. That's one major reason you don't do that apples-to-oranges comparison in the first place.
The whole point of a single-target attack chain is that it's repeatable, and so not only does Damage-Per-Activation matter, but Damage-Per-Cycle (where "Cycle" equals "Activation + Recharge") matters, too. That's a place where other sets start to fall short, because they can burst out a lot of damage, and then they lose it as the big attack powers are on their 20-second recharge cycle (or are we considering +Recharge buffs for them, but not for Electric?).
I see you're minutely focused with Static Discharge's damage here--both you and Edana. Yogi_Bare has the right of it--if you want to pick on Electric, then use the chain he proposed, rather than the chain I use. (By the way, you assume Controllers even have their Hold powers. I'm finding more and more skip them--I have no idea why. They also seem to think that the AOE Immobilize is a great pulling tool.)
The assumptions that have to be made to position Electric as "needing help" include the following:
1) All damage types are resisted in-game equally.
2) No one in their right mind uses Zapp.
3) No one in their right mind uses Voltaic Sentinel.
4) AOE powers only hit one target.
5) Endurance Drain is irrelevant in game-play.
The fact is that Electric Blast's single-target, once you include Voltaic Sentinel and Zapp in the mix, is on par with Energy Blast's single target, with Electric Blast being very slightly weaker. However, Electric's AOE--because its primary non-nuke AOEs (Ball Lightning and Short Circuit) can (and frequently do) hit 16 targets outpace Energy Blast's in terms of raw actual damage (Damage * Targets). It exceeds Ice Blast's non-nuke AOEs by a country mile.
I ran all these numbers years and years ago.
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Quote:
The problem I have with factoring Zapp is that it is interruptable. Just looking at single target damage factoring in Zapp, VS and accounting for recharge Elec seems to do ok compared to Energy BUT this assumes you never get hit while casting Zapp*.|
Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
The fact is that Electric Blast's single-target, once you include Voltaic Sentinel and Zapp in the mix, is on par with Energy Blast's single target, with Electric Blast being very slightly weaker. However, Electric's AOE--because its primary non-nuke AOEs (Ball Lightning and Short Circuit) can (and frequently do) hit 16 targets outpace Energy Blast's in terms of raw actual damage (Damage * Targets). It exceeds Ice Blast's non-nuke AOEs by a country mile.
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If you get interrupted on a Zapp that screws your damage to hell. Not to mention situations where it's impossible to avoid taking frequent minor damage (such as the final fight in Keyes trial).
*Note I only considered up to about 100% recharge. Above that Elec will drop off due to cast time outweighing recharge time.
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True as this is, the changes to Snipes will null a lot of this out, if you run Tactics, Focused Accuracy, and a Kismet, breaking that 22% To Hit threshold that I believe was in the cast earlier, as much as they are subject to change. It'll definitely help marginally, but yes, otherwise, you won't be using it without a Build Up, or some way to keep To Hit 22% or so.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The problem I have with factoring Zapp is that it is interruptable. Just looking at single target damage factoring in Zapp, VS and accounting for recharge Elec seems to do ok compared to Energy BUT this assumes you never get hit while casting Zapp*.
If you get interrupted on a Zapp that screws your damage to hell. Not to mention situations where it's impossible to avoid taking frequent minor damage (such as the final fight in Keyes trial). *Note I only considered up to about 100% recharge. Above that Elec will drop off due to cast time outweighing recharge time. |
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You are correct. The problem is that Blasters don't get Focused Accuracy so they can only get perma-FastSnipe if their secondary is Devices or Energy (theoretically Dark can also get it perma but it need a LOT of recharge).
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Originally Posted by Ishaila
True as this is, the changes to Snipes will null a lot of this out, if you run Tactics, Focused Accuracy, and a Kismet, breaking that 22% To Hit threshold that I believe was in the cast earlier, as much as they are subject to change. It'll definitely help marginally, but yes, otherwise, you won't be using it without a Build Up, or some way to keep To Hit 22% or so.
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Quote:
The duration of the pet build up proc is 5.25 seconds, VS attacks every 3.82 seconds so only one attack is affected for each firing. The proc has a fire rate of 17%. This means that 17% of attacks after the first will deal an extra 44.49 damage. VS can fire 16 times during the 60 seconds it is out so in continuous combat the actual average percentage of VS attacks that are affected by the proc is 15.94%. 15.94% x 44.49 = 7.092 extra damage per 3.82 seconds. The proc therefore contributes ~1.856 DPS.|
Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Snip
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By definition an attack chain repeats when you get to the end of it. If you include an AoE in an attack chain it has to be recharged by the time it comes around again.
The third blast in a set is usually on a 10 or 11 second timer, slightly shorter than snipes. 20s recharge ST powers in blast sets are mezzes. In order to use the chain you gave earlier we needed to fit 146% recharge into Zapp. Elec is not being unfairly treated just to try and make it seem weaker than it is.
I haven't even mentioned Static Discharge let alone "minutely focused" on its damage. No-one is "picking on" Elec Blast. Nobody is trying to prove it has bad ST damage because they don't like its hairstyle or are jealous of its ability to sparkle. Elec is what it is and all the numbers we use to determine how well it can do are the numbers the game uses to do it.
The suggestion to ignore your attack chain is a good one however so moving on: -
With no damage boosts other than 95% damage slotting and defiance: -
A chain of Zapp>Lightning Bolt>Charged Bolts>Ball Lightning requires over 213% recharge in Zapp, and Zapp is currently Zapp is the worst DPA power in that chain. A more usable chain would include a second Charged Bolts; both increasing the DPS and reducing the necessary recharge.
Zapp>CB>LB>Ball>CB repeats with only ~115% recharge for Zapp, Ball Lightning needs ~84% and Charged ~26%. This deals ~1032.5 damage over 10.03 seconds. 102.92 DPS. Adding VS's 86.76 every 3.82s for another ~22.71 gives us a total of 125.63 DPS.
Assuming you never get hit and that VS doesn't have any other targets to look at.
If you can somehow maintain the same chain using fast-Zapp (requiring 175% recharge in BL and 22% to-hit) this jumps to 145.1 + VS for ~167.8 DPS. Since both the first two powers in Elec and the Snipe are direct clones of the Energy versions damage-wise, Energy can run the same chain with BL swapping out for Burst and get 151.7 DPS on SOs and without needing to rely on Voltaic Sentinel's AI.
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Aye, that is a problem. But, at least you can still achieve something like that with Devices, as much as I enjoy devices, and yeah, Dark definitely can. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You are correct. The problem is that Blasters don't get Focused Accuracy so they can only get perma-FastSnipe if their secondary is Devices or Energy (theoretically Dark can also get it perma but it need a LOT of recharge).
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I'll actually be playing my Beam Rifle/Energy and my AR/Devices more often now with these upcoming changes, always felt that Corruptors brought more to the table in terms of fun and utility.
Quote:
If you read any of my other recent posts in this thread, you'll see that I have been coming up with alternate chains and including recharge slotting.|
Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Regarding AOEs, once again, City of Theory rears its ugly head. Sure, you can create an attack chain using AOEs... ...and then wait for their recharges. That's one major reason you don't do that apples-to-oranges comparison in the first place.
The whole point of a single-target attack chain is that it's repeatable, and so not only does Damage-Per-Activation matter, but Damage-Per-Cycle (where "Cycle" equals "Activation + Recharge") matters, too. That's a place where other sets start to fall short, because they can burst out a lot of damage, and then they lose it as the big attack powers are on their 20-second recharge cycle (or are we considering +Recharge buffs for them, but not for Electric?). I see you're minutely focused with Static Discharge's damage here--both you and Edana. Yogi_Bare has the right of it--if you want to pick on Electric, then use the chain he proposed, rather than the chain I use. (By the way, you assume Controllers even have their Hold powers. I'm finding more and more skip them--I have no idea why. They also seem to think that the AOE Immobilize is a great pulling tool.) |
Quote:
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The assumptions that have to be made to position Electric as "needing help" include the following: 1) All damage types are resisted in-game equally. 2) No one in their right mind uses Zapp. 3) No one in their right mind uses Voltaic Sentinel. 4) AOE powers only hit one target. 5) Endurance Drain is irrelevant in game-play. The fact is that Electric Blast's single-target, once you include Voltaic Sentinel and Zapp in the mix, is on par with Energy Blast's single target, with Electric Blast being very slightly weaker. However, Electric's AOE--because its primary non-nuke AOEs (Ball Lightning and Short Circuit) can (and frequently do) hit 16 targets outpace Energy Blast's in terms of raw actual damage (Damage * Targets). It exceeds Ice Blast's non-nuke AOEs by a country mile. I ran all these numbers years and years ago. |
1) Change Short Circuit's damage to be up front.
2) Give Tesla Cage damage equal to a 10 second recharging attack.
3) Increase Voltaic Sentinel's duration.
4) Front load more of Ball Lightning's damage.
Very small, minor changes, that will result in providing the set with a significant ease-of-play boost.
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I'm not sure this would help that much. VS seems to love staying slightly behind you and not joining in when you move on to a new spawn; yet making it more aggressive would just increase the problems caused by an uncontrollable aggro magnet.
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
3) Increase Voltaic Sentinel's duration.
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Since recharge times tend to be an even number of whole seconds there are only two sensible options without changing the damage scale as well: 18s for a ~10% DoT bonus or 16s to make it ~22%.