Blaster Changes Don't Fix Electric
Strato:
A 20% damage nerf because you bring "support" to a team is far, far too much because first and foremost you are a blaster. The objective of the Blaster, its primary purpose, is to do damage to enemies and defeat them quickly.
Assault Core Embodiment does not influence the Sentinel because it produces a stacking 75% buff on YOU, the character; this does not translate to your pets in the same manner than a Mastermind using the Assault Core Embodiment does not transfer that 75% buff to his pets. In his case, the Mastermind is better off using Support Embodiment, but that would be quite silly for a Blaster to use. It wouldn't affect the VS anyway.
The idea that a Blaster's utility kicks in after ten seconds or so of pounding on a mob is a horrid idea, because solo that means the Blaster is dead. We simply don't last that long solo. In a team, the enemy group tends to be demolished in 10 seconds. Successful Blast sets, such as Fire, Ice, and Beam Rifle, are successful because they don't have a build-up period where their secondary effect takes hold. Beam Rifle, for instance, achieves its supporting function 1-2 seconds into the combat, and will so do so in an AOE manner in ~3 seconds with Penetrating Ray; Disintegration is well and active at that point. Notably, they don't pay a set cost with the design of their secondary effect; it is to their clear advantage in a damage sense to use it right away and maintain it.
Frankly, I think that should drive a discussion on whether or not Electric Blast can continue to be a relevant Blaster set with a secondary effect that takes substantial time to take hold. Removing it entirely from the Archetype is probably beyond the scope of things that can be done at this point, so a Cottage-Rule-breaking fix is probably the only answer.
Strato:
A 20% damage nerf because you bring "support" to a team is far, far too much because first and foremost you are a blaster. The objective of the Blaster, its primary purpose, is to do damage to enemies and defeat them quickly. Assault Core Embodiment does not influence the Sentinel because it produces a stacking 75% buff on YOU, the character; this does not translate to your pets in the same manner than a Mastermind using the Assault Core Embodiment does not transfer that 75% buff to his pets. In his case, the Mastermind is better off using Support Embodiment, but that would be quite silly for a Blaster to use. It wouldn't affect the VS anyway. The idea that a Blaster's utility kicks in after ten seconds or so of pounding on a mob is a horrid idea, because solo that means the Blaster is dead. We simply don't last that long solo. In a team, the enemy group tends to be demolished in 10 seconds. Successful Blast sets, such as Fire, Ice, and Beam Rifle, are successful because they don't have a build-up period where their secondary effect takes hold. Beam Rifle, for instance, achieves its supporting function 1-2 seconds into the combat, and will so do so in an AOE manner in ~3 seconds with Penetrating Ray; Disintegration is well and active at that point. Notably, they don't pay a set cost with the design of their secondary effect; it is to their clear advantage in a damage sense to use it right away and maintain it. Frankly, I think that should drive a discussion on whether or not Electric Blast can continue to be a relevant Blaster set with a secondary effect that takes substantial time to take hold. Removing it entirely from the Archetype is probably beyond the scope of things that can be done at this point, so a Cottage-Rule-breaking fix is probably the only answer. |
Do not disrespect Strato. We may disagree with him but he's contributed a lot to the community over the years.
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This post was about electrical blast and how its affected by the changes coming soon and all he had to do was talk about that, stay on point, did he? no, it was a personal attack and Strato-Nexus should learn to speak to others properly and not make personal attacks.
End of Discussion, back on point please.
A 20% damage nerf because you bring "support" to a team is far, far too much because first and foremost you are a blaster.
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Yeah, but you said Hybrid didn't help Ball Lightning. I never disputed anything about VS and Hybrid interaction and fully support making VS better, including allowing Hybrid to affect it.
The idea that a Blaster's utility kicks in after ten seconds or so of pounding on a mob is a horrid idea, because solo that means the Blaster is dead. We simply don't last that long solo. In a team, the enemy group tends to be demolished in 10 seconds.
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I understand some sets secondaries take hold faster. But not all do. The slows in Ice still allow the full enemy chain before they start helping. Mitigation techniques often take longer to apply than offensive increases, Dark can get some modest debuffing going pretty quick, but can ramp it up even higher with time. It is nice that Beam's secondary effect occurs failry quickly, but that secondary effect cannot negate an entire spawn (yes, yes, death is the ultimate debuff, dead mobs don't shoot back and other boring things that ignore the reality that not everything dies in 12 seconds).
Tyrant has tons of mooks around him, which the VS would be targeting all the time.
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Voltaic Sentinel should be a high performer against Tyrant, especially once you get to the actual hard part, since the Olympians will be gone and it will only have one thing to shoot at (although it may also sometimes shoot at the Lights if Tyrant ends up near them, I haven't monitored that on my Emp/Elec).
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Wow. I don't think you are ever going to be happy in this area then. Even melee sets vary by more than that. I am for some buffs to Electric, but I do think being ~20% lower than Fire is fine.
Yeah, but you said Hybrid didn't help Ball Lightning. I never disputed anything about VS and Hybrid interaction and fully support making VS better, including allowing Hybrid to affect it. I disagree with your timeline and your assessment of how useful the end drain can be (plus the hold in Tesla Cage). I don't think either of us will convince the other, sadly. That said, I like some ideas to improve the secondary effect. Having some of the powers also grant -max endurance looks like it could be very helpful, while still not allowing insta-spawn disabling. I understand some sets secondaries take hold faster. But not all do. The slows in Ice still allow the full enemy chain before they start helping. Mitigation techniques often take longer to apply than offensive increases, Dark can get some modest debuffing going pretty quick, but can ramp it up even higher with time. It is nice that Beam's secondary effect occurs failry quickly, but that secondary effect cannot negate an entire spawn (yes, yes, death is the ultimate debuff, dead mobs don't shoot back and other boring things that ignore the reality that not everything dies in 12 seconds). Really? Man if only I had menti... Oh wait. |
EDIT: im thinking of rolling an elec/kin corr and get him to sap everything he comes across, need to look into ipowers and see what6 would increase his -end.
Btw just one question, as a corruptor, wouldnt VS be useful in this area against tyrant? just a thought cos i rolled a fire/ice corruptor some weeks ago for itrials and im going for mu mastery for energy protection.
EDIT: im thinking of rolling an elec/kin corr and get him to sap everything he comes across, need to look into ipowers and see what6 would increase his -end. |
If you have never used VS, it currently is pretty annoying. It has a long cast (3.3s) and only lasts 60 seconds. While it is potent over that time frame and worth it, especially against one hard target, it needs to be monitored because the power will recharge long before the pet dies, but you can only have one at a time out. So you don't just activate when it recharges, but have to pay attention when it drops. Watching my own buff bar for the blinky VS icon and then missing the Air Crackles has happened to me.
The good news is, Hawk mentioned VS is one of the powers they are looking at for possible Electric blast improvements.
We will probably measure and adjust Voltaic Sentinel's uptime and DPS to make it functionally equivalent to having a tier 3 blast.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
So, rather than whine without ammunition I did some math and absolutely amazed myself. With the change to Zapp, assuming Elec / Devices (the other secondaries are just boned now), Electric Blast is honestly better than I'd thought... assuming we can keep the Sentinel on task. As Strato has pointed out above, the little guy has a bad habit of ignoring what you want him to do.
If the Blaster could control its targetting, and it's DPS was raised to a degree (probably 1.5x what it is now - that or allow it to fire more often, re-enable slotting for Recharge Speed to accelerate its little attack), then we might have something.
Let me be very clear, though. Electric Blast is still packing a functionally useless secondary effect. It also has weak in-set AOE; Short Circuit is just bad as an AOE and while Ball Lightning is functional it's nothing special. I'd propose changing Short Circuit entirely to something that matches Jolting Chain in initial design and graphics, but has Short Circuit's functionality with a significant cast time advantage.
An interesting secondary effect replacement might be to allow Electric attacks to build a stack of a debuff called Charged, and a couple of particular attacks (thinking Zapp, Thundering Blast, and maybe Tesla Cage... that's a huge reach tho) will have a chance to "ground" the target, with a little AoE blast effect and minor damage that gets better per stack. But now I'm just coming up with random crap.
It looks like corruptor VS can scourge, so it should be very useful against Tyrant (of course, a Fire/Cold corruptor is amazingly potent).
If you have never used VS, it currently is pretty annoying. It has a long cast (3.3s) and only lasts 60 seconds. While it is potent over that time frame and worth it, especially against one hard target, it needs to be monitored because the power will recharge long before the pet dies, but you can only have one at a time out. So you don't just activate when it recharges, but have to pay attention when it drops. Watching my own buff bar for the blinky VS icon and then missing the Air Crackles has happened to me. The good news is, Hawk mentioned VS is one of the powers they are looking at for possible Electric blast improvements. I have a Kin/Elec/Mace defender that I love (no VS on this character though), but it is not the type of build for everyone. I have been very disappointed in the Gravitic Interface, which I would have thought to be more effective at aiding me in keeping spawns drained and I have not yet bothered switching to and trying Preemptive (I keep hoping they might make Gravitic useful, since I tier 4d it on two characters, sigh). Ion is the obvious choice for Judgement and Clarion Radial will help increase end drain as well (but then you have that gap in mez protection). Hmmm, Hybrid Support does not grant a buff to end mod like most other +special powers, I wonder if that is on purpose or an oversight. Storm Lore will be helpful with end drain as well and add nicely to AoE damage. |
So, rather than whine without ammunition I did some math and absolutely amazed myself. With the change to Zapp, assuming Elec / Devices (the other secondaries are just boned now), Electric Blast is honestly better than I'd thought... assuming we can keep the Sentinel on task. As Strato has pointed out above, the little guy has a bad habit of ignoring what you want him to do.
If the Blaster could control its targetting, and it's DPS was raised to a degree (probably 1.5x what it is now - that or allow it to fire more often, re-enable slotting for Recharge Speed to accelerate its little attack), then we might have something. Let me be very clear, though. Electric Blast is still packing a functionally useless secondary effect. It also has weak in-set AOE; Short Circuit is just bad as an AOE and while Ball Lightning is functional it's nothing special. I'd propose changing Short Circuit entirely to something that matches Jolting Chain in initial design and graphics, but has Short Circuit's functionality with a significant cast time advantage. An interesting secondary effect replacement might be to allow Electric attacks to build a stack of a debuff called Charged, and a couple of particular attacks (thinking Zapp, Thundering Blast, and maybe Tesla Cage... that's a huge reach tho) will have a chance to "ground" the target, with a little AoE blast effect and minor damage that gets better per stack. But now I'm just coming up with random crap. |
It also has weak in-set AOE; Short Circuit is just bad as an AOE and while Ball Lightning is functional it's nothing special. I'd propose changing Short Circuit entirely to something that matches Jolting Chain in initial design and graphics, but has Short Circuit's functionality with a significant cast time advantage.
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Short Circuit does OK damage, is gigantic, drains a ton of bad guy endurance, and can hit 16 foes, unlike most other sets that have a cone which only hits 10 (oddly Irradiate deals a bit more damage, SC is the "correct" amount based on the formula, but SC also has an end discount for the damage it deals (there are other oddities with SC and Irradiate, but I digress)), it just has the painfully long animation. AoEs are not generally judged by DPA, you use your two in a group and move on. From that PoV, Electric's AoE is median.
That said, it and Combustion use the same (beautiful) animation and that animation can remain beautiful, have the exact same overall look, AND easily be 1 to 1.5 seconds faster. Short Circuit with a 1.83s cast (1.98 arcanatime) would be a large improvement not just for less time posing in the middle of the spawn, but also in getting the cycle time down for the drain effect.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
This has occured to a few people. I'm one of the people who thinks it's a cool idea. Jumping to only one target wouldn't do much to increase area damage in the grand scheme of things, but it would do a LOT to make the set feel cooler. And yeah, adding -recovery to the set's attacks would be nice.
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1) Add -recovery to very attack, not just Tesla and Short Circuit.
2) Add damage to Tesla similar to Lightning Bolt
3) Add a chance to sleep targets to Short Circuit
4) Increase Duration of Voltaic to 4 min (similar to Dark Servant), perhaps even adding more powers like, oh Short Circuit maybe.
On, and On, and On....
stay tuned, it only took 8 years for Gravity to get fixed...
uhm, OK, maybe not a good example.
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sypher_vendetta said
how i type and how i write is up to me, |
The less polite version of this is "I'm not your English teacher. Nobody's paying me to read your crap. So I didn't."
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sypher_vendetta said
I didn't bother reading any of the post after this. Or any of the other posts after that one. You're asking me, and dozens of other readers, to put in more work because you wanted to put in less. And then you expect me to show some respect to you for some reason. The less polite version of this is "I'm not your English teacher. Nobody's paying me to read your crap. So I didn't." |
i dont expect respect from you or anyone, i prefer that i earn it, so if you respect me any less from what i said then thats your right, its not that i wanted to put in less, its just that ive explained myself enough and felt the need to not continue this debate any further and derail from the OP, so as i said before, lets get back to point please and drop this nonesense, we all have opinions, but personal attacks are a different thing altogether.
I didn't see anyone else post this up. Apologies if I missed it somewhere.
Voltaic Sentinel- 60s recharge, 3.3 cast, 44.5 damage times 15 attacks is 667.5 damage, 202.3 DPA
It's actually an amazing single target "attack" assuming the fight lasts long enough and there's nothing distracting it. Biggest drawback (aside from the obvious distraction one) is that it can't stack. Having your best attack be on a forced 60 second recharge is really bad. Even if it were capable of stacking, a 30 second recharge with SOs would still be pretty bad. It has a 1.4 accuracy bonus on its attack though, so it would be pretty slot efficient if it didn't cost 26 endurance.
I didn't see anyone else post this up. Apologies if I missed it somewhere.
Voltaic Sentinel- 60s recharge, 3.3 cast, 44.5 damage times 15 attacks is 667.5 damage, 202.3 DPA It's actually an amazing single target "attack" assuming the fight lasts long enough and there's nothing distracting it. Biggest drawback (aside from the obvious distraction one) is that it can't stack. Having your best attack be on a forced 60 second recharge is really bad. Even if it were capable of stacking, a 30 second recharge with SOs would still be pretty bad. It has a 1.4 accuracy bonus on its attack though, so it would be pretty slot efficient if it didn't cost 26 endurance. |
If you actually activate it while in combat, maybe...
If you activate it before combat, it may not pick up a target until you move to a closer range.
It certainly depends and I'm not attempting to discredit what you've said there. Just lamenting and pointing out a few of the factors that'd likely knock off a chunk of those nice looking numbers.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Let me be very clear, though. Electric Blast is still packing a functionally useless secondary effect. It also has weak in-set AOE; Short Circuit is just bad as an AOE and while Ball Lightning is functional it's nothing special. I'd propose changing Short Circuit entirely to something that matches Jolting Chain in initial design and graphics, but has Short Circuit's functionality with a significant cast time advantage.
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I have a Time/Electrical Defender whom I absolutely love and Short Circuit is a large part of the reason. I can use the buffs and debuffs in Time to sit in the middle of a large crowd of enemies and spam Short Circuit to my hearts content. Between the recharge debuffs and endurance drain I don't face that many attacks and Farsight stops most of those. So in that situation Short Circuit is an awesome power. I'll admit I wouldn't mind seeing the cast time reduced but the I would be sad to lose its status as a large radius PBAoE with strong endurance drain and recovery debuff.
Now I realize that this is an edge case and that powers should be balanced for the majority of combos but please don't discount the current implementation of Short Circuit entirely.
Voltaic Sentinel- 60s recharge, 3.3 cast, 44.5 damage times 15 attacks is 667.5 damage, 202.3 DPA
It's actually an amazing single target "attack" assuming the fight lasts long enough and there's nothing distracting it. |
667.5 damage over 60 seconds = 11.125 damage per second. Recharge will not improve this.
Blazing Arrow has a 11.98 second cycle time and deals 161.7 damage.
Power Burst has a 12.24 cycle and deals 132.6 damage
VS = 11.125 dps
BA = 13.5 dps
with 33% recharge - 17.06 dps
with 70% recharge - 20.57 dps
with 136.6% recharge - 26.04 dps
PB = 10.83 dps
with 33% recharge - 13.61 dps
with 70% recharge - 16.33 dps
with 136.6% recharge - 20.49 dps
There is room for VS to grow both in convenience (cast time improvement and duration) and damage output.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Also, I just wanted to say that I'm very encouraged by Arbiter Hawk's comments about he and Synapse intending to make sure that Electric Blast (and some others) are up to snuff under the new Blaster paradigm, as he said.
He's acknowledged that the lack of a true 3rd ST blast, VS's behavior and numbers and the Endurance Drain secondary effect all have made the set under perform.
So... all those things acknowledged and a commitment to making sure they're in a good place after the changes should mean good things for us Electric Blast lovers.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Also, I just wanted to say that I'm very encouraged by Arbiter Hawk's comments about he and Synapse intending to make sure that Electric Blast (and some others) are up to snuff under the new Blaster paradigm, as he said.
He's acknowledged that the lack of a true 3rd ST blast, VS's behavior and numbers and the Endurance Drain secondary effect all have made the set under perform. So... all those things acknowledged and a commitment to making sure they're in a good place after the changes should mean good things for us Electric Blast lovers. |
When was this said ? Can you elaborate for me, because I would like to watch/read this for myself.
Thanks
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HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Could always use some variation on the Haunt system and grant an 'if target is VS' taunt aura to the target when Voltaic Sentinel is summoned.
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I'm not sure if this is a worthwhile tradeoff or not. Maybe if it was done like Singularity where it's targetable but has very high resistances?
Strato:
A 20% damage nerf because you bring "support" to a team is far, far too much because first and foremost you are a blaster. The objective of the Blaster, its primary purpose, is to do damage to enemies and defeat them quickly. |
If electric lagged fire by only 20%, when Fire is given about 40% more damage than normal due to DoT, that would imply that intrinsically, Electric is actually the better offensive set unless you believe DoT is better than other secondary effects. If you do, then you should tend to pick Fire, no differently than if you think end drain is the best effect, you should pick electric, or if you think slows are the best effect you should pick Ice.
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unless you believe DoT is better than other secondary effects. If you do, then you should tend to pick Fire, no differently than if you think end drain is the best effect, you should pick electric, or if you think slows are the best effect you should pick Ice.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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