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The design of other sets says otherwise. Using buff/debuff sets as an example, time and thermal have their resistance debuffs given large recharges and reduced power because of the large amount of defense present in them. Archery's resistance debuffs have their power reduced because there are two of them in the set. We can't say for sure if it's the case, but it's a very real possibility. That's why I asked about it in Hawk's thread.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think whether or not we have too little, too much, or just enough sustain will have little impact on whether or not Frozen Aura can have more damage (or any damage) or Fire Manipulation gets more utility. Only when things get egregious do I think the devs start thinking that way. But for remotely reasonable levels of sustain I don't think having high sustain "steals" away opportunities for other buffs.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But if you want damage from Ice, you arguably picked the wrong secondary.
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On a related aside, I think many sleep powers should be reevaluated. Probably not to electric's sleep's level, but that's a good benchmark.
So, I was digging through my planner, checking out my builds, and looking at the 22% tohit thing. For the most part I'm ok here, as I already take a kismet on every set (yea I love overkill tohit). Then I get to a character with /dark manipulation.
To get the same tohit boost as buildup on other characters, I need to hit 10 targets with Soul Drain. Argh, that's annoying, not all blasters want to solo fighting a dozen targets at a time.
Will Touch of Beyond still require a tohit check? On /mental, Drain Psyche has a to hit but it's AoE, so it's nearly guaranteed to hit at least something. If Touch of Beyond just sorta fizzles 5% of the time, that will be a real downer as well.
So, I dunno ... I'm not as excited for this one particular character.
The Bacon Compels You.
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Good reminder about the damage snipes do. I think I'm used to thinking of them in terms of the interrupt, which means their damage isn't nearly high enough. I checked Mid's after my original post and noticed that it will be quite nice (Archery's Snipe does more damage than Blazing Arrow, for crying out loud)... when you can use it. I'm still concerned with the to hit requirement attached to this (it seems rather limiting... and I'd almost rather their recharge was increased to drop the interrupt time instead, it's less confusing), but I think they do have options to deal with it, and possibly just help Blasters with it. Building up to hit via Defiance (with a cap) might be a trick, etc.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is huge. It makes them better than Blaze. Some will be better than Widow LUNGE.
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Then when I see the changes proposed I get the feeling that the devs just want to patch blaster up to the point where they aren't totally sucky by expending the bare minimum amount of effort on them, rather than have a proper plan in place to put them at a specific level of performance.
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But yes, crashing nukes need help and I would have rather seen them looked at in I24.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Am I the only person that is actually HAPPY about these changes?
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I think I need more data on the secondaries to really discuss those well. Main issue there is how they're saddling more iffy or skippable powers with the boost, which does upset established builds more than if they had added survivability in another way (some more mitigation from attacks, regen stacking from using attacks, etc.). I guess that's my main thought on those... I'd like to see a better integration of adding to our survivability, rather than throwing it in with just one secondary power. I'm sure I'll roll with it if they stick with the one secondary power, but I still think it would work better integrated with our attacks or inherent.
No matter what, I hope we get a freespec with I24. These changes, however, they go Live, will require a fair amount of adjusting.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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That argument did not avail me when they changed it on Tankers, but you may have better luck because that is the argument that was used at the time to not also make the change for blasters (ironically, I thought it made more sense to add damage to the blaster version and more control to the tanker version, and I am still confused how that all worked out).
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But if you want damage from Ice, you arguably picked the wrong secondary.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It is supposed to be limiting. That is why a limiter is used, to limit something. It is not so strong that it must be kept from being perma, but it is strong enough that some limit is interesting. People keep asking for stuff like "let me build to-hit with Defiance so I can get the fast snipe all the time", but the idea is that you don't have it all the time outside of specific builds. Importantly, while it is strong, it is also not so strong that you are seriously hurting yourself if you don't make it perma. Therefore it is not a bad thing if some builds are perma fast snipe and others choose not to be.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I'm still concerned with the to hit requirement attached to this (it seems rather limiting... and I'd almost rather their recharge was increased to drop the interrupt time instead, it's less confusing), but I think they do have options to deal with it, and possibly just help Blasters with it.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
The adjustment to snipes is guardedly good, making them better, but the 22% to hit requirement is a bit iffy and not accessible enough (accessible meaning usable without too many weird build or insp usage requirements....
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
excited enough about the blaster changes & the potential for the ar/dev combo in particular than I logged in my ar/dev this afternoon- going to unlock his alpha & get him all ready for I24.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
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It's extremely strong. Not compared to attacks found in melee sets, but it is compared to attacks found in ranged sets. The DPA of these things is twice that of any of the other power in most of these sets. A massive discrepancy between the blaster performance floor and the ceiling has always been an issue. It's going to be wider thanks to this change. People at the performance floor won't be able to leverage this or will be using a set that doesn't contain a snipe (future changes will potentially address this) while people at the performance ceiling will get even higher.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Importantly, while it is strong, it is also not so strong that you are seriously hurting yourself if you don't make it perma. Therefore it is not a bad thing if some builds are perma fast snipe and others choose not to be.
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It is when you consider the costs.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
When you talk of accessible, are you strictly talking about perma fast snipes? Because fast snipes are readily accessible to every blaster build on a regular basis with out too much delay between the ability to use it (and using a snipe occasionally without fast cast is not a terrible thing). |
If you can't spec out of one blast power to take the snipe (IE the snipe is not always going to be there) you have to come up with a power pick and 5 slots to get that snipe.
Even then if you use the snipe to best effect against spawns, Its going to be as an opener with both aim and build up active followed by your next hardest hitting attack (instant remove of a mob up to LT rank). At that point you have the snipe available 25% and it really didn't do you any good because there are still other things that can work nearly as effectively.
If you go for making the snipe permanent on anything other devices, you are either going to be managing three click powers to keep it going or be forced into fitting a well slotted tactics and a kismet into your build and you will then be at the mercy of anything with minus to hit.
Also since snipes come late in your builds using them for blasters really hurts exemplar builds.
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I'm not debating whether a limiter is needed, because one is needed for any attack power (recharge, damage scale, etc.). What I am quibbling is the to hit limiter, since that hurdle is more or less easy for different sets to hit, rather than being consistent across the board. Yes, Devices needs help, but this seems like a weird sidestep, rather than an attempt to actually fix the problems in the set itself. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is supposed to be limiting. That is why a limiter is used, to limit something. It is not so strong that it must be kept from being perma, but it is strong enough that some limit is interesting. People keep asking for stuff like "let me build to-hit with Defiance so I can get the fast snipe all the time", but the idea is that you don't have it all the time outside of specific builds. Importantly, while it is strong, it is also not so strong that you are seriously hurting yourself if you don't make it perma. Therefore it is not a bad thing if some builds are perma fast snipe and others choose not to be.
When you talk of accessible, are you strictly talking about perma fast snipes? Because fast snipes are readily accessible to every blaster build on a regular basis with out too much delay between the ability to use it (and using a snipe occasionally without fast cast is not a terrible thing). |
In other words, a Snipe change should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
The accessibility comments are more a complaint that this drives people more toward slotting Kismet and taking tactics as well, and the inspiration usage approach is a problem well hashed over with the "give blasters mez protection/just use an insp" debate.
I'm not asking for something just like Stalkers got, but their guaranteed crit for AS is a lot more accessible for every powerset than the proposed snipe change is for sets that have snipes. I'm arguing for equal accessibility.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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They don't stack though. Or has this changed since last I knew?
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I have never really felt pain from times -regen its pretty easy to stack 3 or 4 time crawls on a target if you are on a team.
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Then add damage in those powers.|
Originally Posted by Garent
Ice has four damaging powers,
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two of which ONLY do damage aside from their secondary effect of slow. I think expecting damage from it is reasonable. On a related aside, I think many sleep powers should be reevaluated. Probably not to electric's sleep's level, but that's a good benchmark. |
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
That argument did not avail me when they changed it on Tankers, but you may have better luck because that is the argument that was used at the time to not also make the change for blasters (ironically, I thought it made more sense to add damage to the blaster version and more control to the tanker version, and I am still confused how that all worked out).
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But I feel it makes more sense for Frozen Aura to do damage for Tankers. They only have 1 set that does damage, their secondary, so it makes sense that 7 of Ice Melee's powers do damage.
Blaster's secondaries are not comparable to a melee AT's melee set. Not every power is meant to do damage and every manipulation set has powers primarily built for utility and do no damage, some even have more than half the powers being damageless.
Adding damage to Frozen Aura misses the point of using Frozen Aura as it cancels the primary effect of that power. I'd sooner ask for damage to be added to Shiver since at least that's a cone and usable 60ft away and only has 1 effect (slow).
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This pretty much sums up the issue with Snipes and the current proposal.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I'm not debating whether a limiter is needed, because one is needed for any attack power (recharge, damage scale, etc.). What I am quibbling is the to hit limiter, since that hurdle is more or less easy for different sets to hit, rather than being consistent across the board. Yes, Devices needs help, but this seems like a weird sidestep, rather than an attempt to actually fix the problems in the set itself.
In other words, a Snipe change should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary. The accessibility comments are more a complaint that this drives people more toward slotting Kismet and taking tactics as well, and the inspiration usage approach is a problem well hashed over with the "give blasters mez protection/just use an insp" debate. I'm not asking for something just like Stalkers got, but their guaranteed crit for AS is a lot more accessible for every powerset than the proposed snipe change is for sets that have snipes. I'm arguing for equal accessibility. |
I keep saying proposal, because we really need to push on the Devs to make the snipes, and yes I DO mean fast-snipes, more universally usable without huge "build-tweaks". You could go and say that "AIM" is the universal balancer for fast Snipes, but AIM has found its way "IN" and "OUT" of my builds more times than I care to admit. It is a great power, but sometimes you just want to reduce how many clickies are on the tray. What If... AIM is not in your build either, so now to use a Snipe, you need to respec and trade two powers just for the "common baseline" of fast-snipe use.
Take my Electric Blaster (Defender really), I would trade Voltaic for a Snipe. Lets face it, stupid.. right ? But its a playstlye preference. I would rather have a T3 blast. The DEVs need to understand that these changes they propose WILL REQUIRE trading powers currently IN THE BUILD in order to realize their potential. Those lucky few who already possess all the powers will be happy, but most will need to respec. As Arcana aptly pointed out, this is a REAL cost to acquire these new toys and perhaps the cost will BARELY be covered by the improvements. For me, the Snipes DO NOT cover their cost to add into a build UNLESS they can be used MOSTLY as fast-snipes.
btw Pilgrim, this post is not aimed at you, just elaborating on the topic of snipes
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HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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My interpretation of what's going on in those cases is that those are cases where the devs were actively trading off different effects from the perspective of making sure the sets were not too good at too many things. That creates the opportunity for one effect to be traded off against another for a design purpose. And they are comparing one set against its peers. But sustain and non-sustain effects aren't in competition like that in the blaster secondaries, and comparing to peers would be irrelevant to manipulation buffs if you were going to buff all of them to a higher level of value.|
Originally Posted by Garent
The design of other sets says otherwise. Using buff/debuff sets as an example, time and thermal have their resistance debuffs given large recharges and reduced power because of the large amount of defense present in them. Archery's resistance debuffs have their power reduced because there are two of them in the set. We can't say for sure if it's the case, but it's a very real possibility. That's why I asked about it in Hawk's thread.
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As a review of the manipulation sets is something I want, if I thought sustain would hinder that I would be pointing that out to Arbiter Hawk already. But I believe the critical problem inherent in any review of the secondaries is the huge amount of effort it would take to do that within the context of the cottage rule. By comparison, sustain's effect is negligable. Certainly not high enough for me to encourage the devs to either split up the effect (which would not really help, since the sets would still be just as powerful overall) which would be an inconvenience, or reduce sustain just to make room for future buffs, which is an attitude that I believe actually a lot of us including me promoted over the years which helped put blasters in the state they are now, or delay any changes until manipulation sets are on the table, because in prior discussions with the devs my belief is that that is something we should not hold our breath for: the devs want to do it, but there are serious impediments to it getting off the ground.
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You are adding that one strong attack to a string of others. Overall damage output over 10 seconds is not going to be doubled even from the current situation where you don't ever use a snipe when going for DPS. Builds with perma snipe will not be doing double the damage of builds with situational snipe, but rather will only be some modest and reasonable range higher (and depending on the builds that is not necessarily true, the non-perma snipe build could still be higher DPS). And the blaster secondary with the easiest way to do this does not get Build Up, so it is not pulling ahead as some people seem to be thinking (but hopefully it will be pulling closer).|
Originally Posted by Garent
It's extremely strong. Not compared to attacks found in melee sets, but it is compared to attacks found in ranged sets. The DPA of these things is twice that of any of the other power in most of these sets. A massive discrepancy between the blaster performance floor and the ceiling has always been an issue.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
What I am quibbling is the to hit limiter, since that hurdle is more or less easy for different sets to hit, rather than being consistent across the board. Yes, Devices needs help, but this seems like a weird sidestep, rather than an attempt to actually fix the problems in the set itself.
In other words, a Snipe change should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary. |
Do you believe all of the following? Because someone believes in each of these, but rationally none of them should be true in a game where we want lots of variety.
Lots of additional AoE effects should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Power Boost should help every primary equally.
Extreme long range attacks should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Higher damage buffing based on the number of enemies you are facing should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Solid levels of control should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Very high DPA, single target melee attacks should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Having two holds for a boss should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Having two stuns for a boss should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Being able to stack cone AoEs should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Being able to stack PBAoEs should be equally accessible regardless of your secondary.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Your argument basically boils down to "It's not doubling the overall damage sets had before, so it's fine"
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But the other Fortunes are all very beneficial so its almost cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
They can stop accepting Fortunes, like I did a while ago.
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Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I see the need to start small, but this is a drop in the ocean compared to the changes I (And many others by the look of it) think are necessary. It also shows me that they don't see 'most secondaries are useless' as being a problem because they are keeping the powers people now think are useless, and rather than making the power useful, they are tacking on an extra benefit to using it.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Well, be careful of how you read it. Arbiter Hawk and Synapse are pretty conservative in how far they will go with things, preferring to take small steps and not go too far. Too conservative, in my opinion (I still think a few Peacebringer powers need tweaking after last years tweaks), but they're not expending a bare minimum of effort when they do make adjustments. I do appreciate their conservative approach for the most part. Players tend to call reductions of power even in beta nerfs. If I were a dev I'd make small adjustments as well, given that annoying tendency.
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Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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All of our gnashing teeth are for naught if the dev team doesn't integrate animation time into their balancing formula.
Keep in mind that in teams Blasters will almost Always have 22% tohit from teammate buffs.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I really don't see how the snipe changes make it any more viable a power past the opening shot of a battle. The interrupt time is eliminated, that's 2 seconds with any sniper set in the power. There's still 4.67 seconds of activation time and about an equal amount of recharge time and most likely 1.17 seconds for Aim or BU. In the Fire Blast primary 4.67 seconds is equal to the combined activation times of Flares, Fire Blast, Fire Ball, and Blaze. Once you move in from snipe range to the 80-ft range of the other powers (88-ft with the ATIO set), what's the point? With my current build, I can just stand there and spam Flares and Fire Blast or simply hit my Blaze power every 4 seconds and do more damage than a snipe in the time it takes to get a snipe off. Just adding the snipe to my attack chain will drop my single-target sustained DPS by 40.
It's great that the Blaze range is being extended to 80-ft, although personally I'm almost always within the 40-ft range to pick off anyone who's left after I've done Aim-BU-Spring Attack-Burn-Fire Sword Circle-Consume.
Regarding Blazing Aura (which as others have noted has always been a pretty worthless power), could someone confirm that Mid's is still showing inaccurate damage from Interface proc's? It shows a net increase of 50 points of damage when Interface is turned on (same with Hot Feet). My understanding is that it should actually be +10 points (67 * .75 / 5).
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Mids is accurate in most cases. The issue with Blazing Aura is that it deals its damage once every 2 seconds, while the Interface will proc only once every 10 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Shining_Path
Regarding Blazing Aura (which as others have noted has always been a pretty worthless power), could someone confirm that Mid's is still showing inaccurate damage from Interface proc's? It shows a net increase of 50 points of damage when Interface is turned on (same with Hot Feet). My understanding is that it should actually be +10 points (67 * .75 / 5).
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I think you're misunderstanding how the animation time is listed. Blazing Bolt, for example, has a 4.67s animation and 3s interrupt time. That doesn't mean it normally takes 7.67s to activate - it takes 4.67s total, and is interruptable for the first 3s of that. Removing the interrupt time reduces it to a 1.67s activation. This isn't quite Blaze-level DPA, but still very high, and some snipe powers are faster still, with AR having the fastest at .67s.
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Originally Posted by Shining_Path
I really don't see how the snipe changes make it any more viable a power past the opening shot of a battle. The interrupt time is eliminated, that's 2 seconds with any sniper set in the power. There's still 4.67 seconds of activation time and about an equal amount of recharge time and most likely 1.17 seconds for Aim or BU. In the Fire Blast primary 4.67 seconds is equal to the combined activation times of Flares, Fire Blast, Fire Ball, and Blaze. Once you move in from snipe range to the 80-ft range of the other powers (88-ft with the ATIO set), what's the point? With my current build, I can just stand there and spam Flares and Fire Blast or simply hit my Blaze power every 4 seconds and do more damage than a snipe in the time it takes to get a snipe off. Just adding the snipe to my attack chain will drop my single-target sustained DPS by 40.
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It seems to me the blaster secondary changes are basically a good idea.
The ranged attack changes are also good, but they are really going to help Defenders and Corruptors just as much if not more than Blasters. They will also help most Dominators and a few Stalkers and Scrappers.
Essentially the problem is this: Even with these useful survivability powers in the secondaries, blasters are still less survivable than even Stalkers. It remains to be seen exactly how far these range changes bring Blasters damage but they really ought to be able to put out sustained DPS numbers from Range comparable with Stalkers, Scrappers and Brutes in Melee.
I don't have a problem with any of the changes, but it seems like a little something more for Blasters will be necessary. Even with these changes there might need to be an additional AT wide buff for Blasters or boosts for certain powers in various sets, or a little of both.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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One gives 5% defence and 10% resist! Which at mid levels can take a defence toon from good to awesome.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Almost, except none are strong enough to really care, especially since you can't depend on getting any one particular buff out of them. Also, by not accepting them I can also justify not giving them out. :P
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Arbiter Hawk mentioned somewhere making the buff cancelable, which will see me cancelling anything that isn't that one (Or other good ones I might be forgetting). Personally he would be better off making the buff selectable instead of random.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Specifically, I don't think the devs look at Ice Manipulation and say "Ice is weak, we can buff Frigid Protection or we can buff Shiver, but we can't do both."
Now if Frozen Aura were changed into a damaging power that also summoned a sleep patch like Static Field and therefore allowed me to stack sleeps afterward, sure. But if you want damage from Ice, you arguably picked the wrong secondary.