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Actually, it was me that was stomping on your joke, and I did apologise. |
Originally Posted by NoiseBlind
"The melting point of purified water has been measured as 0.002519 ± 0.000002 °C, see R. Feistel and W. Wagner (2006). "A New Equation of State for H2O Ice Ih". J. Phys. Chem. Ref. Data 35 (2): 10211047. Bibcode 2006JPCRD..35.1021F. DOI:10.1063/1.2183324"
That's close enough for alternative rock. Now quit stomping on my mediocre joke. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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There's one other blaster that can theoretically get to perma +22%: /Dark when not combined with AR. But it requires significantly more effort than /energy because you need about +100% global recharge to pull it off, which is unlikely to happen in a leveling build.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually with minimal effort (tactics + kismet) every Corruptor and Defender can have the permanent fast snipe. The only blasters that can have the fast snipe on a permanent basis, are devices and energy. Energy has to take tactics, the kismet, and has to rotate Aim, build up and power boost (while wearing a chicken on their head)*
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However, it does not require perma +22% to get perma insta-snipe. It just requires the tohit buff be up when snipe is recharged, and /Dark can get there with a little less effort than that: still very high relative to energy and devices, but not impossibly high.
Which doesn't alter the fact that the blaster melee modifier for tohit buff is too low. But with the modifier reset to 0.125, Dark would be in the game without tactics and or the need to hit a high number of targets.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's one other blaster that can theoretically get to perma +22%: /Dark when not combined with AR. But it requires significantly more effort than /energy because you need about +100% global recharge to pull it off, which is unlikely to happen in a leveling build.
However, it does not require perma +22% to get perma insta-snipe. It just requires the tohit buff be up when snipe is recharged, and /Dark can get there with a little less effort than that: still very high relative to energy and devices, but not impossibly high. Which doesn't alter the fact that the blaster melee modifier for tohit buff is too low. But with the modifier reset to 0.125, Dark would be in the game without tactics and or the need to hit a high number of targets. |
LOL sorry I really don't consider jumping into melee range, Aggroing 10 mobs and then freezing myself for 2.5 seconds while I eat that alpha viable to get a snipe.
If energy has to wear a chicken on its head dark has to wear the chicken suit.
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Slotted tactics and unslotted (for tohit) Soul Drain needs to hit three targets to reach +22%. Slotted tactics and Soul Drain 1-slotted for tohit requires hitting two targets. Slotted tactics and Kismet requires unslotted Soul Drain hitting one target.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
LOL sorry I really don't consider jumping into melee range, Aggroing 10 mobs and then freezing myself for 2.5 seconds while I eat that alpha viable to get a snipe.
If energy has to wear a chicken on its head dark has to wear the chicken suit. |
Whether its a source of humor to you or not, its a fact worth mentioning to players that care about facts.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Slotted tactics and unslotted (for tohit) Soul Drain needs to hit three targets to reach +22%. Slotted tactics and Soul Drain 1-slotted for tohit requires hitting two targets. Slotted tactics and Kismet requires unslotted Soul Drain hitting one target.
Whether its a source of humor to you or not, its a fact worth mentioning to players that care about facts. |
It hits 10 mobs so unless you can position it so it just hits 3 and doesn't aggro the rest of the spawn. Of course if you do that you sacrifice most of your +damage.
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We also get an orange ring around the snipes if it can be instant. So we can keep an eye open for that.
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Originally Posted by Shining_Path
Ah. Now it makes sense. Thanks. That takes it from a -40 DPS to +40, if your existing characters happen to have Devices to sustain the +22% ToHit, or you have enough team mates around with Tactics running. Otherwise, it'll cost 1.17 seconds to activate Aim or BU every time. I think it will be very awkward/annoying, however, if you're firing at a good clip, and suddenly your team mate wanders out of range, and your snipe starts doing interrupts again.
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Its only a sacrifice of damage if you can in fact hit more and you choose to hit less. But there's no reason to do that: you should hit however many you are capable of hitting with your playstyle: the tohit buff you get from that will be enough to hit the limit under the conditions I mentioned. But I'm not advocating deliberately trying to hit more than you would attempt to hit today, or alternatively deliberately trying to hit less. I'm only mentioning the threshold necessary to reach 22%, not advocating a specific target number to hit.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It hits 10 mobs so unless you can position it so it just hits 3 and doesn't aggro the rest of the spawn. Of course if you do that you sacrifice most of your +damage.
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Of course, your point about melee does bring up the case where a player chooses to not take Soul Drain at all, because they don't *ever* want to be in melee and it thus has no benefit to them. That could be particularly problematic for, say, AR/Dark, and probably worth mentioning to Arbiter Hawk. Perhaps Soul Drain could be altered to provide its frontloaded tohit buff even if it hits nothing, or there might be some other remedy possible.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its only a sacrifice of damage if you can in fact hit more and you choose to hit less. But there's no reason to do that: you should hit however many you are capable of hitting with your playstyle: the tohit buff you get from that will be enough to hit the limit under the conditions I mentioned. But I'm not advocating deliberately trying to hit more than you would attempt to hit today, or alternatively deliberately trying to hit less. I'm only mentioning the threshold necessary to reach 22%, not advocating a specific target number to hit.
Of course, your point about melee does bring up the case where a player chooses to not take Soul Drain at all, because they don't *ever* want to be in melee and it thus has no benefit to them. That could be particularly problematic for, say, AR/Dark, and probably worth mentioning to Arbiter Hawk. Perhaps Soul Drain could be altered to provide its frontloaded tohit buff even if it hits nothing, or there might be some other remedy possible. |
That would of course apply to the too awesome mental as well, seeing as some people take that set to get the extra cone attack from psychic scream and infrequently use drain psyche.
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The problem with Drain Psyche is that it combines hard to use with stupidly strong. That makes it harder to adjust. Lots of people aren't fond of DP, but lots of other people take Mental primarily for DP.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That would of course apply to the too awesome mental as well, seeing as people take that set to get the extra cone attack from psychic scream and infrequently use drain psyche.
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Having said that, I don't have a problem with shifting some of the strength of DP into a frontloaded component that affects the blaster without having to hit any targets. But that power is radioactive: I would do that all by itself unlinked to any other game changes.
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... am I the only one who loves the massive -Rech in psychic scream as well as the extra damage? Seriously? You could rip Drain Psyche out altogether and I'd probably still roll */mental.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Let me check the guide. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
... am I the only one who loves the massive -Rech in psychic scream as well as the extra damage? Seriously? You could rip Drain Psyche out altogether and I'd probably still roll */mental.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
In addition to Concentration, which is this set's name for Build Up, the other two stand-out, great powers in the set are Psychic Scream, a big cone damage power you get early and Drain Psyche, a PBAoE +Regen/+Recovery power which comes in right at level 20.
Psychic Scream Level 10 Moderate damage, Range Cone Attack, with a great -recharge effect. The 60 foot base range on this cone makes it very easy to get a large swath of enemies inside its AoE. It has a relatively quick recharge and low end cost for its damage level. This is one of the best powers in the set, although you can make a successful build without it. Archery - Fistful of Arrows + Psychic Scream are two great cone attacks, with good range, that you get early so you can put out some good AoE damage. Assault Rifle - Psychic Scream + Buckshot gives good early AoE output, and adding Flamethrower at 18 shoots you through the roof. Electrical Blast - Mind Probe adds another single target attack. Psychic Scream + Ball Lightning gives good range AoE output. Energy Blast - Psychic Scream (notice a trend?  ) + Energy Torrent gives good range AoE output and good control. Fire Blast - Fire Breath + Fire Ball + Psychic Scream is stunning AoE output available early. Ice Blast - The slows from Ice stack really well with the -recharge from Mental. Frost Breath + Psychic Scream is good AoE damage early and the combo is devastating AoE -recharge. Psychic Blast - The -recharge from Psychic stacks really well with the -recharge from Mental. Psionic Tornado + Psychic Scream is brutal AoE -recharge. Psychic Blast's lack of AoEs can be covered by the plethora of AoE in Mental. Sonic Attack - Howl + Psychic Scream are two cone attacks, with good range, that you get early so you can put out some decent AoE damage. Shockwave gives you a ton of control that you can utilize to get the above combo off more easily. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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IMO that's just dancing around the fact that putting Soul Drain in a blaster secondary was just a bad idea, all around.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Of course, your point about melee does bring up the case where a player chooses to not take Soul Drain at all, because they don't *ever* want to be in melee and it thus has no benefit to them. That could be particularly problematic for, say, AR/Dark, and probably worth mentioning to Arbiter Hawk. Perhaps Soul Drain could be altered to provide its frontloaded tohit buff even if it hits nothing, or there might be some other remedy possible.
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Only if you believe melee attacks in general are inappropriate to blasters, which I don't think they are. The problem is that while BU and Aim have no real preference for melee or ranged, Soul Drain does, and that makes it a dangerous candidate for adding buffs which then synergize with the primary blast set which is ranged preferred.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
IMO that's just dancing around the fact that putting Soul Drain in a blaster secondary was just a bad idea, all around.
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Unless you're range exclusive, Soul Drain was the first time Blasters even got access to anything better than BU and Aim really, and lots of things are stronger than BU and Aim. Its just that mostly melee archetypes get them.
Something that is as strong as Soul Drain or AAO but would work at least as well if not better for ranged blasters as opposed to melee archetypes would be welcome, but I don't see one on the horizon yet.
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Huh! (as in the sharp intake of breath due to shock). We finally get a decent, interesting +damage buff other than Build Up and you want to poo-poo it! Begone evil one! |
Originally Posted by Codewalker
IMO that's just dancing around the fact that putting Soul Drain in a blaster secondary was just a bad idea, all around.
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Now, I am not saying /Dark got the proper version of Soul Drain, I really like that 15 foot radius version and think it makes much more sense for a blaster to have the larger radius.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Gah fine, I'll run numbers on this.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I then suggested that the difference in DPS between those who had perma fast cast snipe and those who just have occasional fast cast snipe will not be very large and depending on the builds the perma snipe build might not even be better DPS. I think chasing a perma snipe build will be a viable choice, I don't think it will be the only viable choice.
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power bolt - power blast - power bolt - power burst (standard chain)
6.468 animation time, 360.32 damage, 55.7 DPS
power bolt - power blast - power burst (not worth it)
5.28 animation time, 297.76 damage, 56.4 DPS
power bolt - power blast - power burst - sniper blast (probably the easiest chain involving the snipe. Requires 127% recharge in sniper blast, which is slotting + hasten or a few set bonuses)
6.768 animation time, 470.46 damage, 69.5 DPS
power bolt - power burst - power bolt - sniper blast (requires slightly more recharge than the above, but lets you drop power blast and improves the performance of purple procs in power bolt)
6.108 animation time, 430.42 damage, 70.5 DPA
power bolt - power blast - power bolt - sniper blast (about the same as the previous, and requires more recharge. theoretically better depending on power bolt proccing)
5.712 animation time, 400.42 damage, 70.1 DPA
power bolt - power blast - sniper blast (because I don't know, you have a hami raid worth of kins buffing you and they all popped ageless)
4.524 animation time, 337.86 damage, 74.7 DPA
70.5 is 27% more DPA than 55.7. I'm not counting the 74.7 one because it requires 295% recharge in sniper blast. The sniper blast chain is also going to get more out of procs since its cycle time is lower.
For reference, 25% damage is the difference between a stalker and a tanker using the same power.
Just a general what if thought. Devices (the set that can most easily perma-FastSnipe) lacks any melee attacks which tend to be a good source of single target damage for blasters.
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Cool and thanks!|
Originally Posted by Garent
Gah fine, I'll run numbers on this.
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Originally Posted by Garent
70.5 is 27% more DPA than 55.7. I'm not counting the 74.7 one because it requires 295% recharge in sniper blast. The sniper blast chain is also going to get more out of procs since its cycle time is lower.
For reference, 25% damage is the difference between a stalker and a tanker using the same power. |
The fact that stalkers and tankers are only 25% apart on base damage must be why stalkers NEED other things to improve their damage.
Sometimes I think people think things are much more finely and tightly balanced than they are. The variances on so many things in this game are ENORMOUS. A 25% difference in DPA is small relative to so many other things. I should note here, I don't think this is a bad thing.
What is the variance on mitigation provided between Force Field and Kinetics?
What is the variance on damage increase between Force Field and Kinetics?
What is the difference in single target damage output between a Fire/Electric blaster and a Dark/Ice blaster?
How about AoE damage of a Fire/Fire blaster and a Psi/Ice blaster?
What about an Ill/Rad controllers breadth of abilities compared to an Energy/Regen stalker?
I find your numbers evidence in support of my position. Fast snipes are a clear benefit and making it perma will be useful. But they are not so great that you must build for it and the DPS difference between a build with occasional fast snipe and perma fast snipe is not going to be very large and a build without the snipe at all will still be OK too.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It isn't big in the context of the game, but I consider it to be too much. So that's where our opinions diverge.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Sometimes I think people think things are much more finely and tightly balanced than they are. The variances on so many things in this game are ENORMOUS. A 25% difference in DPA is small relative to so many other things. I should note here, I don't think this is a bad thing.
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It was a predictable result, really. Throw in an attack with twice as much damage as the others and use it one out of every four times, you get a 25% increase.
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I think the problem is that Soul Drain is indeed better than Build Up... for melee classes that have armors and drastically shifted incoming-outgoing DPS until death life curves. While a Blaster has the option to engage in melee or punish foes that come too close, they lack the protection to adequately leverage Soul Drain. This AT will still lack such even after the looming buffs to Touch of Fear (which will be ranged mind you). |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Unless you're range exclusive, Soul Drain was the first time Blasters even got access to anything better than BU and Aim really, and lots of things are stronger than BU and Aim. Its just that mostly melee archetypes get them.
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Do you think that Soul Drain would be viewed the same way on a Scrapper if it could rarely be saturated (or even partially saturated as 4+ targets) and required melee classes to alter their gameplay to use properly? What if the mere use of it was risky and the more effective you made it the lower the player's chance of surviving got? That's the terrible line that Blaster's walk with this skill-- and it's neither something that melee classes face nor do Blasters with Build Up.
I think there are two ways to remedy this:
- 1- Make Sould Drain a TAoE.
- 2-Make Soul Drain grant a period of significant +defense/+resistance during its lengthy animation for the Blaster AT. This class will still face the issue of surviving the initial spawn dive as well as the ensuing agro.
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The thing is, /dark really encourages a close range style and the -ToHit that all the powers stack on the targets make a /dark character particularly more survivable at that range.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
I think the problem is that Soul Drain is indeed better than Build Up... for melee classes that have armors and drastically shifted incoming-outgoing DPS until death life curves. While a Blaster has the option to engage in melee or punish foes that come too close, they lack the protection to adequately leverage Soul Drain. This AT will still lack such even after the looming buffs to Touch of Fear (which will be ranged mind you).
Do you think that Soul Drain would be viewed the same way on a Scrapper if it could rarely be saturated (or even partially saturated as 4+ targets) and required melee classes to alter their gameplay to use properly? What if the mere use of it was risky and the more effective you made it the lower the player's chance of surviving got? That's the terrible line that Blaster's walk with this skill-- and it's neither something that melee classes face nor do Blasters with Build Up. I think there are two ways to remedy this:
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I didn't mean to derail the thread, but IMO the problem with Soul Drain is that Build Up is often used to buff the opening volley in a big fight (say, a crashing nuke). With Soul Drain that simply isn't an option on higher difficulty levels and/or large teams.
On the topic of blaster survivability, I've seen far more /dark blasters attempt to use Soul Drain and go SPLAT by eating an alpha strike (or even a partial alpha) than I've ever seen die from clicking Build Up. It became kind of a running joke on one team I was on.
Yes, the buff lasts 30 seconds and it's possible to use it after the alpha, and maybe have a few seconds left when getting to the next group, but it's iffy.
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I didn't say Soul Drain wasn't problematic: I said it *was* problematic. But it is still stronger than Build Up, and prior to the announced sniper changes I considered it a plus that Blasters got anything like it at all when /Dark was proliferated, not a punishment.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
I think the problem is that Soul Drain is indeed better than Build Up... for melee classes that have armors and drastically shifted incoming-outgoing DPS until death life curves. While a Blaster has the option to engage in melee or punish foes that come too close, they lack the protection to adequately leverage Soul Drain. This AT will still lack such even after the looming buffs to Touch of Fear (which will be ranged mind you).
Do you think that Soul Drain would be viewed the same way on a Scrapper if it could rarely be saturated (or even partially saturated as 4+ targets) and required melee classes to alter their gameplay to use properly? What if the mere use of it was risky and the more effective you made it the lower the player's chance of surviving got? That's the terrible line that Blaster's walk with this skill-- and it's neither something that melee classes face nor do Blasters with Build Up. I think there are two ways to remedy this:
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I also said, and will reiterate, that Blasters should get better tools that aren't melee-focused in general.
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I took /Mental for World of Confusion, and picked up Drain Psyche with the logic of "Hey, at least then I won't have to take stamina." (this was back before I18)|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
... am I the only one who loves the massive -Rech in psychic scream as well as the extra damage? Seriously? You could rip Drain Psyche out altogether and I'd probably still roll */mental.
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Because, I mean, what else is it good for? It's not like regen means much on a blaster, right?
... more seriously, I only have five powers from my secondary. The ST immob, Mind Probe (as a set mule, and VERY rarely for punching through sufficiently high resistance with a psi hole), Concentration (which I sometimes consider dropping, and might still someday), Drain Psyche, and World of Confusion.
If I didn't HAVE to take the ST Immob, I wouldn't have. I never use the thing. Ever.
I can accept Psychic Scream is a good power from an objective standpoint, but the aesthetics are completely wrong for my blaster, so, I'll never take it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Frankly I'm very underwhelmed. I understand that Blasters shouldn't be made on par damage-wise or survivability-wise with other archetypes.
But will these changes make Blasters anymore fun? Look, do the devs seriously want to grow the fanbase and subscribers of this game? This won't do it, at all.
First, for new players Blasters and Scrappers fit the classic superhero wish fulfillment promise of the game. Then you actually play CoH and it becomes obvious Blasters fail on every aspect.
To wit:
1. The new snipe requirements. Why such a large percentage? You know why the Diablo games are so popular? Because the short descriptions fit the powers exactly. You see a blast power, it's a real blast power without all the caveats and prior requirements. You know what you get. You can see it immediately.
Why can't it just be one charge of Build Up or Aim? You have to actually work to get Snipe to be what people actually wanted Snipe to be instead of a crippled, boring, cumbersome, monstrosity of a pathetic snipe power it is.
2. The new /regen. So now we have heal over time power. Wow, that really makes me feel more blastworthy. I mean, when I think of the Human Torch or Captain Atom I immediately think of their phenomenal regen powers.
The most cumbersome aspect of being a Blaster is getting shut down, mezzed, knocked back and confused to oblivion by the most routine mobs and then just faceplanting after all that indignity because you _can't_ do anything while being mezzed, confused, knocked backed.
I'd rather have a click break free and brief a click phase/defense power. Instead we are getting more layers added onto a stinking pile of Defiance 2.0.
"The melting point of purified water has been measured as 0.002519 ± 0.000002 °C, see R. Feistel and W. Wagner (2006). "A New Equation of State for H2O Ice Ih". J. Phys. Chem. Ref. Data 35 (2): 1021–1047. Bibcode 2006JPCRD..35.1021F. DOI:10.1063/1.2183324"
That's close enough for alternative rock. Now quit stomping on my mediocre joke.