It reads much like the "talk to contact/talk to object" tech we have now, but with chances to fail, as well as a grind to get the ability to make use of it at all. I'm not sure how this is enjoyable, but, as Memphis Bill pointed out, I'm sure someone would like it.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Like I said, it'd probably be best for people who like RP-heavy play, and it'd be optional.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Have you ever played the KotOR games?|
Originally Posted by Olantern
It reads much like the "talk to contact/talk to object" tech we have now, but with chances to fail, as well as a grind to get the ability to make use of it at all. I'm not sure how this is enjoyable, but, as Memphis Bill pointed out, I'm sure someone would like it.
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Well, in those games there were objectives where you needed a skill to actually progress but usually they weren't required (i.e. you just wouldn't complete some stuff). That and there was various ways to progress using other paths.
You didn't need security skills to take over suchandsuch base, but it'd let you get through the back door where otherwise you'd have to go through the front and most likely to some guards and lots of ambushes.
Some players would actually want to charge straight in and fight lots of foes (because it may be their character's style or they just might want the xp) but other players might feel it more their character's style to sneak in through the back or maybe they don't want to get in a long snobberknocker fight.
I see it as fun because I can better emulate my characters as smart, resourceful, cunning and/or knowledgeable characters. Right now, the only useful skill is fighting and that's only 1/4 of what goes on in the comics.
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Bingo.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
<snip>...I see it as fun because I can better emulate my characters as smart, resourceful, cunning and/or knowledgeable characters. Right now, the only useful skill is fighting and that's only 1/4 of what goes on in the comics.</snip...>
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Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Unfortunately none of that would work in an MMO.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Have you ever played the KotOR games?
Well, in those games there were objectives where you needed a skill to actually progress but usually they weren't required (i.e. you just wouldn't complete some stuff). That and there was various ways to progress using other paths. You didn't need security skills to take over suchandsuch base, but it'd let you get through the back door where otherwise you'd have to go through the front and most likely to some guards and lots of ambushes. Some players would actually want to charge straight in and fight lots of foes (because it may be their character's style or they just might want the xp) but other players might feel it more their character's style to sneak in through the back or maybe they don't want to get in a long snobberknocker fight. I see it as fun because I can better emulate my characters as smart, resourceful, cunning and/or knowledgeable characters. Right now, the only useful skill is fighting and that's only 1/4 of what goes on in the comics. |
Everyone would quickly figure out which method of completion was most efficient and that's what everyone would do henceforth.
Direct correlation- at CoV release you could stealth newspaper missions, complete the objective (kill boss, get X) and collect your mission exp. I/E, choose whether to beat up a bunch of guys or sneak in the back door.
It was so efficient pretty soon everyone was doing it and the objectives were changed from 'kill boss' to 'clear final room' & collection missions also began requiring clearing the final room. This was *still* too efficient and maps were changed around so that the 'final room' was usually something huge like the layer cake cave room or a great huge warehouse.
Mechanisms that work well in single player games don't generally translate well to MMOs.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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You can have fun with the Incarnate System doing it alone. |
Originally Posted by Power_NA
I would have more fun with the Incarnate System if I could do it alone, so I could read what they were saying, and because I like playing with myself :P.
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It's called Dark Astoria.
As for the last part ... TMI.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Well that's newspaper missions. I hate newspaper missions primarily because I like my characters to interact with contacts to emulate having a footprint on the going-ons in the city. Just repeating paper missions for xp gives you no contacts you can call, no badges, no connections, no history. This isn't to take away from paper missions (by the way, I would have sworn Mayhem missions were added after CoV was released), but to add to regular contact missions.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Unfortunately none of that would work in an MMO.
Everyone would quickly figure out which method of completion was most efficient and that's what everyone would do henceforth. Direct correlation- at CoV release you could stealth newspaper missions, complete the objective (kill boss, get X) and collect your mission exp. I/E, choose whether to beat up a bunch of guys or sneak in the back door. It was so efficient pretty soon everyone was doing it and the objectives were changed from 'kill boss' to 'clear final room' & collection missions also began requiring clearing the final room. This was *still* too efficient and maps were changed around so that the 'final room' was usually something huge like the layer cake cave room or a great huge warehouse. Mechanisms that work well in single player games don't generally translate well to MMOs. |
There's a whole plethora of ways to add to regular missions, from adding extra objectives to evading pesky objectives or in some cases making other objectives easier. None have to be required...
For instance, some of those 'Stop soandso from escaping' would be hella easy if I had security skills and just lock the damned door or if it were a cave map and I had demolition skills, just blow the main escape tunnel up so the NPC had nowhere to go. You don't need to do any of that, but it may make certain characters/builds accomplish this easier when solo or even teamed.
Or if you had Search & Rescue skills and were able to get information out of a scared/injured/hysterical hostage/victim, he may point you to the next nearest hostage or tell you where he last saw someone while he was escaping the fire. You don't need to do any of that, but it can make some things smoother and it could make your character feel a lot more like your character.
You: Hey, team, if you find any victims in this fire, let me talk to them. I'll find out where all the others are.
Team: Awesome, move out!
As of now, all that extra stuff seems a nuisance if only because everything's focused on fighting and there's nothing else in this game so anything that gets in the way of fighting is just in the way. If we had specialized skills that expanded things outside of fighting but did not stand in the way of fighting, it'd be hard to see it as anything *but* a neat option. How can something 'not work' if it's an option? Unless the game already doesn't work in the first place.
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Not relevant to the point I'm making.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well that's newspaper missions.
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Players seek efficiency, and if you give them an efficient route through content, be it TFs or story arcs or newspaper missions, they're going to take it.
Which means energy spent on 'alternate' ways to complete missions is largely wasted- players will find out what's efficient, they'll run that and they'll ignore everything else.
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| There's a whole plethora of ways to add to regular missions, from adding extra objectives to evading pesky objectives or in some cases making other objectives easier. None have to be required... |
Players will find the most efficient set of actions and that's what they'll do.
The kind of story-driven mechanic you're talking about works fine and has a place in single player RPGs.
It simply doesn't fly in MMOs.
/edit
and it occurs to me you don't even have to take my word on this- the devs for *this game* spent a whole lot of time and energy on such a system before abandoning it as unworkable.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
That depends on how gaining xp is delivered. If there were a skill system where you could still fight your way to named boss and beat them up to get your info, or hack security systems that allow you to sneak in, set off alarms to call the attention of guards away from key passages you need to take, and finally, coerce the named boss into giving up the goods.
Where each of those acts awarded xp that would equal to clearing your way via combat. Provide multiple ways for a mission to be completed, with equal amounts of efficiency and awards.
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Again, you're talking about things that work great for single player games and simply are not practicable for MMOs.|
Originally Posted by Tannim222
That depends on how gaining xp is delivered. If there were a skill system where you could still fight your way to named boss and beat them up to get your info, or hack security systems that allow you to sneak in, set off alarms to call the attention of guards away from key passages you need to take, and finally, coerce the named boss into giving up the goods.
Where each of those acts awarded xp that would equal to clearing your way via combat. Provide multiple ways for a mission to be completed, with equal amounts of efficiency and awards. |
If a single player RPG is like a speedboat, an agile and flexible vehicle built to carry a single person, an MMO is a giant cruise liner, built to carry thousands, ponderous and relatively unstoppable once set on its course.
If any MMO designer out there thought such a system would be a good idea, they'd have done it. Not only haven't they done it, this game tried it and junked it as a waste of time.
So.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Well the point you're making is rather irrelevant. *In this game*, if all players only cared about efficiency, no one would run any missions at all outside of DfB, DiB and/or AE farms.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Not relevant to the point I'm making.
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The devs do fine, IMO, to allow players to choose what they want to do and how they want to do it. That doesn't mean everyone's a bot and only worry about getting to lvl 50 and doing itrials so they can shelve that character and do it all over again.
To respond to your irrelevant point; I believe players want content. Content includes many things from contacts, missions, mission maps, AE options, powersets and playstyle options.
This is a playstyle option.
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Players seek efficiency, and if you give them an efficient route through content, be it TFs or story arcs or newspaper missions, they're going to take it. Which means energy spent on 'alternate' ways to complete missions is largely wasted- players will find out what's efficient, they'll run that and they'll ignore everything else. |
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The kind of story-driven mechanic you're talking about works fine and has a place in single player RPGs. It simply doesn't fly in MMOs. /edit and it occurs to me you don't even have to take my word on this- the devs for *this game* spent a whole lot of time and energy on such a system before abandoning it as unworkable. |
You have *NO IDEA* what works and doesn't. You're not working in the industry and therefore have made those decisions.
Secondly, no one ever innovated by only doing what works. They do so by trying different things.
Thirdly, the tech of the game at the time, the design mentality of the devs and the options available in the game have changed drastically since any type of skill system was pushed away. What didn't work then could very possibly work now not to mention the fact you have *NO IDEA* what the system they were working with entailed. We're only speculating what might have been what they had in mind.
On top of all that, AFAWK, the idea was scrapped because *THEY* (the devs) thought it wasn't fun. Lol, I'd sooner believe in their objective of fun is as soon as they fully reject some of the past goals they thought were fun (PvP changes, Defiance 2.0, 1 hero = 3 minions, past Gravity Control (before Singularity), Group Flight, the majority of old missions and TFs...the list goes on, none of it was fun then and they'll eventually or have already been changed).
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Again, you're talking about things that work great for single player games and simply are not practicable for MMOs.
If a single player RPG is like a speedboat, an agile and flexible vehicle built to carry a single person, an MMO is a giant cruise liner, built to carry thousands, ponderous and relatively unstoppable once set on its course. If any MMO designer out there thought such a system would be a good idea, they'd have done it. Not only haven't they done it, this game tried it and junked it as a waste of time. So. |
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That explains why "everyone" was only playing brutes and getting them to 50 in a few hours in AE... |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Everyone would quickly figure out which method of completion was most efficient and that's what everyone would do henceforth.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I've been playing these things since the first console game showed up in the local arcade, which had previously hosted only pinball, foosball and air hockey machines. I played games on an Apple II's tape drive. Having surveyed the history of the industry firsthand, I have an excellent idea of what works and what doesn't.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You have *NO IDEA* what works and doesn't.
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In this particular instance actual game devs actually worked on a system very like the one you describe before chucking it as a bad job.
But by all means carry on bloviating over something that will never happen in an MMO setting because its very structure is inimical to how MMOs function- these are forums, after all, and where would they be without hollow posturing.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
You define MMO too narrowly, Nethergoat. There is room to expand and innovate in the genre. Not everyone is interested in the fastest and most efficient loot chase.
As an optional system, skills may have been interesting. That the devs didn't find it fun was addressed and ignored by you in favor of more snark. Not very useful for a productive discussion.
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There go those absolutes again.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
But by all means carry on bloviating over something that will never happen in an MMO setting because its very structure is inimical to how MMOs function- these are forums, after all, and where would they be without hollow posturing. |
All I'm debating is, just because something hasn't worked yet doesn't mean it cannot work at all. It may just be posturing, but I find it more productive than baseless dismissal. For all we know, there may be someone attempting to incorporate skills into the design of their studio's newest game and discussing what is fun to us may be passed onto those designers later.
It's a long shot, but certainly more productive than dismissing it as 'unworkable in any incarnation for the genre period'. Why not express, at least, what you'd find *unfun* about such a system? That would at least be a better use of your effort than what you're doing now.
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So what you are saying is when it comes to MMOs... we should just stay out of the conversation, because as players with less experience in MMOs we obviously have no clue about what works?|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I've been playing these things since the first console game showed up in the local arcade, which had previously hosted only pinball, foosball and air hockey machines. I played games on an Apple II's tape drive. Having surveyed the history of the industry firsthand, I have an excellent idea of what works and what doesn't.
In this particular instance actual game devs actually worked on a system very like the one you describe before chucking it as a bad job. But by all means carry on bloviating over something that will never happen in an MMO setting because its very structure is inimical to how MMOs function- these are forums, after all, and where would they be without hollow posturing. |
Or were you saying:
We have no idea what players want because; even though we are players, your plethora of experience negates our desires and what we find fun?
OR... were you saying:
You have been around so long that your conceited nature should just be tolerated because you have been that way a long time?
Your post confused me
Oh and I have no desire for the SSOOC System.. just thought I would point out that when people use words like "never" it comes across as a bit stupid. Considering you cannot know what is to come in the MMO world... Irregardless of your experience...you may find it helpful to not treat other player's opinions as absolute trash simply because you have been around the gaming world for 3 decades.
Your condescension in this thread is appalling for someone who I actually thought presented themselves in a decent manner up until today. Then again what do I know... I have only been playing MMOs for 7 years...
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Ok, I'll say it:
The Goat is right on this one.
If those systems were workable in an MMO, don't you think some form of them would be either in this game, or any game, by now? It's been almost 10 years since they started planning/developing CoH.
Enough people steer their gameplay in an MMO toward the most efficient means of gaining stuff/levels that Devs intentionally steer the majority of their time designing content to facilitate it. It doesn't have to be a 50%+ majority, but just more than any other subgroup of players.
Creating a character, gaining levels, hitting the cap, and then starting over is what CoH is built around. Everything that doesn't facilitate this gets pushed to the side, either to "when we can get to it" status, or into the "not worth the development time" bin.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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No. Having played a hyperbolic bajillion of the durn things, I've found that deviation from what is known to be safe is a Very Rare item with the lowest of low drop chances. And even if one game out there managed it, unless said game managed the money-printing secret of the select few its innovations would fall by the wayside rather than spread.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If those systems were workable in an MMO, don't you think some form of them would be either in this game, or any game, by now?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
I think you might be mistaking "I" for "Players". If everyone wanted the same thing and had the same definition of efficiency, it would make no sense for this game to have more than one AT, two powersets and one correct combination of powers from those sets.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Players seek efficiency, and if you give them an efficient route through content, be it TFs or story arcs or newspaper missions, they're going to take it.
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It's like that argument that it makes no sense to do anything for red-side because there's more blue-side players. Well duh. It also makes no sense to do stuff for stalkers, or controllers, since they're not nearly as popular as scrappers, right?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
and it occurs to me you don't even have to take my word on this- the devs for *this game* spent a whole lot of time and energy on such a system before abandoning it as unworkable.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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No. Technology changes, and game design is a kind of technology just as much as hardware and programming languages are. Things will be invented ten or twenty years from now that would be technically possible today in CoH, but which no one has yet thought of.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Ok, I'll say it:
The Goat is right on this one. If those systems were workable in an MMO, don't you think some form of them would be either in this game, or any game, by now? |
CoH is full of design choices that other developers still think are impossible. I have tried to explain sidekick/exemplar to people and had them tell me, confidently, that these designs could not possibly work.
It may be that these ideas are hopeless, but I do not consider "not yet implemented" to be compelling evidence for this. The "public grouping" feature that some MMOs have now is a radical rethink of aspects of the grouping experience.
So, yeah, no one's got one now, but that doesn't mean they couldn't later...
The system sounds very interesting. To some degree, I see Goats point, Some players would use the system to their advantage to make content easier. But then, I agree with everyone else in that not everyone would.
It's like a new tech introduced recently in 2 missions where, depending on dialogue choices, you can either have to fight an NPC super, of have them help you. Namely Icedrome in sonra costels arc and Leon in Laura Lockhearts. It's also seen in some of the DA stuff, eg, choose to fight or not to fight.
Now unless everyone, or at least an overwhelming preportion of the player base, chose exactly the same options, then you cannot say the same about this system either.
And, just because the previous dev team, for whatever reason, decided to not implement this system, does not dictate what the current dev team may or may not do.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I don't really have an opinion on the old SSOOC system, or whether that, or a vaguely similar system is worth trying to design. I just kinda object to the whole "since it doesn't currently exist in an MMO, it's obviously doesn't fit the MMO genre." mentality.|
Originally Posted by St_Angelius
And, just because the previous dev team, for whatever reason, decided to not implement this system, does not dictate what the current dev team may or may not do.
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Personally, I'm more of the mentality that of course it can be done. Whether the time, effort and eventual gameplay contribution is worth it, however, is something for a professional designer to assess.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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There is no previous dev team. It's the same team. When Cryptic sold the paragon team 90% of the devs that worked on COH went with Paragon studios. So the same folks who found it unworkable then are probably still on the Paragon Studios Team.
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
The system sounds very interesting. To some degree, I see Goats point, Some players would use the system to their advantage to make content easier. But then, I agree with everyone else in that not everyone would.
It's like a new tech introduced recently in 2 missions where, depending on dialogue choices, you can either have to fight an NPC super, of have them help you. Namely Icedrome in sonra costels arc and Leon in Laura Lockhearts. It's also seen in some of the DA stuff, eg, choose to fight or not to fight. Now unless everyone, or at least an overwhelming preportion of the player base, chose exactly the same options, then you cannot say the same about this system either. And, just because the previous dev team, for whatever reason, decided to not implement this system, does not dictate what the current dev team may or may not do. |
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Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Can't say I agree. *shrug* |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Ok, I'll say it:
The Goat is right on this one. |
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| If those systems were workable in an MMO, don't you think some form of them would be either in this game, or any game, by now? It's been almost 10 years since they started planning/developing CoH. |
For instance, we have travel down pretty well here. Multiple ways, no need to pay anything (but a very little bit of time) to "unlock" fast travel within a zone and a train system everywhere else. Compared to walking everywhere until level 60, that sounds pretty good, doesn't it? It's something that can be set up in almost any genre.
Now, look at most other MMOs. Walking around giant worlds basically burning time just to GET from place to place. In COH, I can log on, get a mission done, and log off in 15 minutes. In most other MMOs I've messed with, I will have walked (or slowly ridden a horse or something) about halfway to the mission by then.
Or how about calling contacts? Now, admittedly it doesn't make sense for Sir Ridesalot of Ye Olde Kingdome of Gnomidon-Swordyface to have a cell phone, but *some* form of contact like that could be done, right? Yet, for most I can think of - with very few exceptions (thinking TOR's holocomm, which is only shown and usable here and there,) you have to hoof it back to the contact or dropoff point. Even in situations it would make sense (TOR, again - why do I not have some sort of communicator, so I only have to drop off physical items - or maybe send my companion back to do it?) they don't do it.
As you said, it's been 10 years. We're at our 8th anniversary. SOMEONE should have picked up on these, right? Keep players happy by removing some of the tedium? Instead, most are not wanting to deviate from WoW - which means "If you subscribe, we want to waste your time so you spend more time in the game. If you're free, we want to waste your time so if something comes up to ease that you'll buy it."
Detectice to find leads for jobs,
Psychology to terrify victims,
etc.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.