A fight against incredibly strong enemies that most ATs won't be able to beat on their own.
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2012-06-13 22:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
My only real issue (thus far) relates to that blasted diff slider.
When I started running FW content...was pretty easy going for a while, even with a strictly SO, Elec/Elec dominator. Then I got to point in the arcs where you start running into the possessed D.U.S.T. troops. OK...that's kinda interesting. Ran through a few of those mission.
Then I got started down little ms. Katie Whatserface's arc...ran into one of those possessed guys...smacked'im a good one...revealed the ghostie...then proceeded to get my **** handed to me. It wasn't until shortly before I tasted floor that I glanced up to my target window and saw "Boss".
Wait-what? How the-? I'm running on NO BOSSES! Why in the hell is there a BOSS! What the FRACK!?
....Hm...OK...fine. It's ok. I CAN deal with this. Hosp'd it...trucked my way back...picked another fight with him...and put him down...though it was a bit tough. Cool. That's done. Hopefully he was just some kinda special deal and that was a one-off. NNNNNNNNNNNOPE! Ran into that very same thing a few MORE times. Now I've simply accepted the fact that FW and NW content is just going to simply ignore my difficulty settings and surprise me every so often by tossing a random boss at me for no particular reason other than just to tick me off. And I wonder sometimes why a few of my friends finally got fed up with this game and left.
EBs...i don't mind them so much as long as i know to expect them. But...after hearing about the NW mission that spawns like 2 or 3 of them....yee. Not sure my dommy can handle that solo....who until running the Fireball missions vs. Animus Arcana, was running missions at +0/x2 (wormholing 3 people just feels like a waste to me...lol). Ugh...hate those blasted things. They're too perfectly matched. Damage, (de)buff, healing...good god. What happened to the days of "10 guys that all do pretty much the same thing except that one guy over there who does something slightly different that makes you wanna kill him first just to get his annoying *** out of the way and he's not even a boss" spawns!!!!!
Seriously...if I say i don't want to fight a boss (and usually don't cuz either A: I'd get creamed, or B: They just take to freakin long to kill), don't toss any freakin BOSSES AT ME! EB...yeah...fine. I can deal with that. "The Big Bad" and all that. Makes sense for story purposes. Random bosses for the sake of random bosses...not so much.
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
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I agree that random bosses thrown into missions when you're set not to fight bosses is dumb and should be changed. It's not serving a story purpose, it's just pointlessly adding difficulty/annoyance to a mission for a person who'd rather not.
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
Then I got started down little ms. Katie Whatserface's arc...ran into one of those possessed guys...smacked'im a good one...revealed the ghostie...then proceeded to get my **** handed to me. It wasn't until shortly before I tasted floor that I glanced up to my target window and saw "Boss".
Wait-what? How the-? I'm running on NO BOSSES! Why in the hell is there a BOSS! What the FRACK!? ....Hm...OK...fine. It's ok. I CAN deal with this. Hosp'd it...trucked my way back...picked another fight with him...and put him down...though it was a bit tough. Cool. That's done. Hopefully he was just some kinda special deal and that was a one-off. NNNNNNNNNNNOPE! Ran into that very same thing a few MORE times. Now I've simply accepted the fact that FW and NW content is just going to simply ignore my difficulty settings and surprise me every so often by tossing a random boss at me for no particular reason other than just to tick me off. And I wonder sometimes why a few of my friends finally got fed up with this game and left. EBs...i don't mind them so much as long as i know to expect them. But...after hearing about the NW mission that spawns like 2 or 3 of them....yee. Not sure my dommy can handle that solo....who until running the Fireball missions vs. Animus Arcana, was running missions at +0/x2 (wormholing 3 people just feels like a waste to me...lol). Ugh...hate those blasted things. They're too perfectly matched. Damage, (de)buff, healing...good god. What happened to the days of "10 guys that all do pretty much the same thing except that one guy over there who does something slightly different that makes you wanna kill him first just to get his annoying *** out of the way and he's not even a boss" spawns!!!!! Seriously...if I say i don't want to fight a boss (and usually don't cuz either A: I'd get creamed, or B: They just take to freakin long to kill), don't toss any freakin BOSSES AT ME! EB...yeah...fine. I can deal with that. "The Big Bad" and all that. Makes sense for story purposes. Random bosses for the sake of random bosses...not so much. |
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My City Was Gone
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What's that? Hyperbole? |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I appreciate your position, Sam. I really do.
I just get tired of people calling it unfair when they can't button mash their way through a fight with their eyes closed. Yes, there is a point where things can be made too hard. However, "can no longer faceroll my way through this" is NOT that point. |
Thanks for posting!
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Originally Posted by Bright
I can tell you haven't tried soloing a stalker through First Ward yet...
 In all seriousness, while Praetoria in general (and First Ward in particular-) aren't *impossible* for stalkers, they're not exactly what I'd call fun, either. A ton of character-targeted ambushes involving larger-than-average groups, escort allies that can't see through Hide, critter factions that make Assassin's attacks utterly useless... It's a real pain in the butt, and problematic in ways that just don't hit other ATs. Sure, it CAN be done... I ought to know. I've gone through the whole Praetorian song and dance with three now... but at this point I really am convinced that the devs who designed First Ward had something against sneaky folk.  |
I could handle the possessed in First Ward, who made themselves immune to my best attack and were just generally annoying to fight, and I could handle the random bosses in both zones, and I didn't even really have a problem with the last boss in the final FW arc.
But now in Night Ward they're pulling out all of the stops, making everything really frustrating not through challenge but through dumb gimmicks like health restoration and "EBs, EBs EVERYWHERE!"
"Hey, you're the hero of Night Ward, you're the only one who can stop Malaise right now!"
"No problem man, lemme just get detected through stealth and obliterated by three bosses worth of psychic artillery while a random, infinite-spawning lt. shows up to spawn minions on top of me every time I kill it. Woo challenge!
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
An occasional tough boss or spawn is part of the game.
So no, you don't want to "play the game", you want the game changed to accommodate your inability to deal with the small amount of actual challenge & adversity it presents. |
I'm not disagreeing with you, though like I've said before this is the only solution to the problem and it still doesn't guarantee that the game's awful AI (no offense to the developers) or the RNG won't screw you over anyway.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I'm not saying "get a team together", I'm saying ask for help from a kitted out level 50.
That's the work of a few minutes- in my experience others are happy to lend a hand when someone is stuck. |
And I was running this arc late enough where everyone was either going to bed or... preoccupied in Pocket D.
I'll say again that I'm not averse to help, but it seems silly to make a whole arc designed around solo content and then force squishy ATs to team up.
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No, it's called intelligence.|
Originally Posted by ResidentBaka
"You guys hate challenge. You should be more like me and swallow inspirations until you can't be killed. That's called skill."
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You're like a guy trying to pound nails with your forehead making fun of everyone else for using hammers.
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| It doesn't matter how kitted out the 50 is because all of those tasty set bonuses and that lovely incarnate stuff won't do anything when he's brought down to 35 again. |
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| I'll say again that I'm not averse to help |
You're choosing not to use them.
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My City Was Gone
Group A: We want the game to respect the difficulty slider.
Group B: Cowboy up noobs, type iddqd and roll with the pros.
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Actually, they gave me a very big selection of tools. I chose a wrench because it looked fun. It's not my fault they filled the arcs with nails.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
No, it's called intelligence.
You're like a guy trying to pound nails with your forehead making fun of everyone else for using hammers. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
A level 50 using generics packs more than enough power to deal with a mid-level EB.
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But again, why are they tossing these ridiculous gimmicks into missions geared toward solo play? They're forgetting that not everyone picks a brute.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The tools are available.
You're choosing not to use them. |
I did use inspirations. I used a full tray of inspirations three different times.
Oh well, guess I'm just bad.
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I mostly call it "unfair," myself, when it stops being fun. I've been around this game long enough to know that things also need to be challenging, which is why I'm not insisting things be made easier, so much as I'm stubbornly hanging on to the difficulty settings. Once, a long time ago, when City of Villain's multitude of AVs in solo missions were ruining my life, the difficulty settings came to the rescue and allowed me to play the game and have fun again. When I found myself wanting to fight more but easier enemies, I16's new difficulty settings came and helped out.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I appreciate your position, Sam. I really do.
I just get tired of people calling it unfair when they can't button mash their way through a fight with their eyes closed. Yes, there is a point where things can be made too hard. However, "can no longer faceroll my way through this" is NOT that point. |
Basically, I don't want an easier game per se. I just want more control over my difficulty and I want fewer instances where mission design explicitly overrides my settings. As I said, as frequently as even once per mission, that's not so bad. After all, all of Maria Jenkins' missions end in an elite boss fight, some featuring two. That's not so bad. But when a relatively small mission has multiple really tough fights, it robs these fights of their "specialness" and turns them from an adventure into a nuisance. That's where difficulty settings ought to come in, I think.
And I remind you - harder enemies drop greater rewards, especially in Incarnate content. Making my missions easier already has a cost attached to it. In fact, I considered turning bosses off in my Incarnate game, but quickly reconsidered because I enjoyed their high iXP worth and their higher drop chance. That, and I liked getting large inspirations. I'm already weighing my options to find a balance between difficulty and speed of progress, so it's really annoying when the game turns around and overrides my carefully-weighed difficulty settings.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The game has inspirations for situations where your characters base power level may not be enough. You refuse to use them, then complain the obstacle is too challenging for you to overcome.|
Originally Posted by ResidentBaka
Actually, they gave me a very big selection of tools. I chose a wrench because it looked fun. It's not my fault they filled the arcs with nails.
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That isn't a problem with the game.
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| In that mission they'll both be 35s. Will that work? Oh, probably. |
An exemplared 50 would stomp a mudhole in that mission, assuming basline SO performance.
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| But again, why are they tossing these ridiculous gimmicks into missions geared toward solo play? They're forgetting that not everyone picks a brute. |
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| I'm choosing to not demand that someone who clearly isn't interested in joining my group and traveling all the way to Night Ward to help me with a mission join my group and travel all the way to Night Ward and help me with a mission. |
And if you don't like demanding things, then just ask politely- you're the one typing the message.
It's been my experience that at any given time there are a number of people just hanging out not doing anything in particular who are glad to lend a hand.
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| Oh well, guess I'm just bad. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I'm pretty sure I have three different posts in which I said that I used inspirations for this fight and that despite using an entire tray, I still couldn't beat these two EBs.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The game has inspirations for situations where your characters base power level may not be enough. You refuse to use them, then complain the obstacle is too challenging for you to overcome.
That isn't a problem with the game. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Exemplar'ed 50's have many more slots available than they would have at level 35 and those slots are filled with more powerful enhancements.
An exemplared 50 would stomp a mudhole in that mission, assuming basline SO performance. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Everyone has access to inspirations and the 'help' channel though.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
How do you know they're "clearly" anything when you haven't asked?
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Edit: And for that matter, why is nearly everyone doing that? Guys, stop.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
It's been my experience that at any given time there are a number of people just hanging out not doing anything in particular who are glad to lend a hand.
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I recommend looking into your server's global channels if you haven't. Obviously not all servers are as populous as Virtue but I cannot imagine being completely unable to find any helpers even on Zukunft at NA prime time if you shout out on the globals. A die-hard or two will be around and among those who are as dedicated as that to the game there will be one willing to drop what she's doing and assist a stranger.|
Originally Posted by ResidentBaka
Fair enough. Unless, you know, I can't find a 50 who wants to help.
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Another excellent way to get a helper is to /search for lower level players who are themselves looking for a team. This takes care of two problems at once: they now have a team, and you now have the back up required to handle pretty much any EB situation as long as you give them a quick briefing about inspirations they might want to quaff before the fight.
Just one thing: THEY WARN YOU.
They do tell you "THIS MISSION IS DIFFICULT YOU MIGHT WANT TO BRING A FRIEND OR SOMETHING."
Now, there are bug swith the difficulty slider (no bosses not preventing possessed bosses for one) Those should be fixed. (DA is a different story)
But these arcs aren't unsoloable. Tricky? Yes, at times. But they're very much doable.
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Focus on one, die, kill the other.
| I'm pretty sure I have three different posts in which I said that I used inspirations for this fight and that despite using an entire tray, I still couldn't beat these two EBs. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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It was late enough that nearly everyone in my globals was asleep, and I ended up being like "eh, effort" after a bit since I was also tired. I could have waited until tomorrow but I kinda wanted to finish up the arc that night.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I recommend looking into your server's global channels if you haven't. Obviously not all servers are as populous as Virtue but I cannot imagine being completely unable to find any helpers even on Zukunft at NA prime time if you shout out on the globals. A die-hard or two will be around and among those who are as dedicated as that to the game there will be one willing to drop what she's doing and assist a stranger.
Another excellent way to get a helper is to /search for lower level players who are themselves looking for a team. This takes care of two problems at once: they now have a team, and you now have the back up required to handle pretty much any EB situation as long as you give them a quick briefing about inspirations they might want to quaff before the fight. |
I just think it's a bit sloppy when you have to stop all the action to get someone to come help you because, you know, two EBs.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Just one thing: THEY WARN YOU.
They do tell you "THIS MISSION IS DIFFICULT YOU MIGHT WANT TO BRING A FRIEND OR SOMETHING." |
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Focus on one, die, kill the other.
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That's not really a fault of FW though, that's just another manifestation of an old bug where mobs that spawn with the defeat of another (e.g. Council that "transform" into warwolves) don't downgrade properly. No less annoying, but solely not the fault of FW.
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
Then I got started down little ms. Katie Whatserface's arc...ran into one of those possessed guys...smacked'im a good one...revealed the ghostie...then proceeded to get my **** handed to me. It wasn't until shortly before I tasted floor that I glanced up to my target window and saw "Boss".
Wait-what? How the-? I'm running on NO BOSSES! Why in the hell is there a BOSS! What the FRACK!? |
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Started Night Ward. It's refreshingly difficult even on the base setting. I'm playing with a Fire/Pain Corruptor and darned if I don't have to pay more attention in this zone that I ever have before. It's fun.
The extreme amount of mez is a bit tiresome, only because if I took a melee through here they would ignore it completely, which seems a bit unfair to the squishies. But what else is new.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Aye...perhaps. Although when you drop a minion class enemy it "spawns" a minion class spectre, but not all of the lt class enemies i was fighting were spawning boss class spectres. Add to that I seem to recall running across stuff that was just flat out a boss.
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Originally Posted by gec72
That's not really a fault of FW though, that's just another manifestation of an old bug where mobs that spawn with the defeat of another (e.g. Council that "transform" into warwolves) don't downgrade properly. No less annoying, but solely not the fault of FW.
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RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
I'll just say that I, too, hate the AI help NPCs bug that spawns them at Lt. instead of Boss (or higher) if your diff. is set at no bosses.
To be honest I didn't know that worked like that...
Now I know! Maybe now the AI won't die in 2 hits....
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If a boss category enemy is downgraded to a lt, it will still spawn a boss upon death/near death.
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
Aye...perhaps. Although when you drop a minion class enemy it "spawns" a minion class spectre, but not all of the lt class enemies i was fighting were spawning boss class spectres. Add to that I seem to recall running across stuff that was just flat out a boss.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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This is rubbish. I encountered a Longbow Ballista EB doing Mako's patron arc last night with a character I had taken through First and Night Wards without difficulty. It was a far far more difficult fight, and required me to put the level down to -1 for the first time.| I know. In fact I've never had a problem soloing the arcs that make those claims before. Night Ward, however, likes to toss in all sorts of gimmicks that make Elite Bosses into something stronger than Elite Bosses |
The new content is no more difficult than content that has been in the game for many many years.
I really should do something about this signature.
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And what was that character's AT?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
This is rubbish. I encountered a Longbow Ballista EB doing Mako's patron arc last night with a character I had taken through First and Night Wards without difficulty. It was a far far more difficult fight, and required me to put the level down to -1 for the first time.
The new content is no more difficult than content that has been in the game for many many years. |
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Any encounter where the proper solution involves dying on a character that doesn't have self-resurrection as a strength is a flawed encounter, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe in an arcade game where lives are limited and can be seen as using a resource, maybe? But not in City of Heroes. And I don't just say this because I consider going to the hospital to be a sign of defeat that should reset the mission, that's just my own personal thing. No, I consider the hospital a sign of defeat because that's where a LOT of mission stories break down and remain held together only via metagame.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
Focus on one, die, kill the other.
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You need to capture a fleeing criminal, he kills you, you go back to the hospital, buy supplies, call up your buddies, come back... And he's still there. You get trapped inside Mot, you die, you get to go back out and try again. You're deep within the Shadow Shard, you die, you get bumped back to Earth. It breaks down the narrative in a very evident attempt to NOT institute permadeath, even in situations where getting killed and leaving the instance should be fatal for the mission.
Again, any encounter where intentional failure is part of eventual success is badly designed, as far as I'm concerned. The last thing we need is a retread of the "vengeance bait" mentality.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Irrelevant. I always find Ballistas bad news on any AT. I'm not saying dark ward's content is easier, it will obviously depend on ATs and powersets. I'm just rubbishing the idea that it's any more difficult than content that has been in the game for six years.|
Originally Posted by ResidentBaka
And what was that character's AT?
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FYI, I've completed the Wards with a blaster, a brute and a tank. It's obviously harder with a blaster, like everything else, but far from impossible.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I take it then that any encounter in which you use inspirations, temporary powers, or any of the myriad other tools which form part of the game is a flawed encounter then?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Any encounter where the proper solution involves dying on a character that doesn't have self-resurrection as a strength is a flawed encounter, as far as I'm concerned.
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It's pretty obvious that the game's developers don't share that opinion, since they wouldn't have put such things in the game in the first place if using them was cheating.
IMO, any encounter which doesn't include a risk of defeat is a flawed encounter.
I really should do something about this signature.
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The existence of self-resurrection powers (including inspirations) contradicts Sam's opinion. This is a game, not an interactive comic book. Many times in video games, we are expected not to win on the first try.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Any encounter where the proper solution involves dying on a character that doesn't have self-resurrection as a strength is a flawed encounter, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe in an arcade game where lives are limited and can be seen as using a resource, maybe? But not in City of Heroes. And I don't just say this because I consider going to the hospital to be a sign of defeat that should reset the mission, that's just my own personal thing. No, I consider the hospital a sign of defeat because that's where a LOT of mission stories break down and remain held together only via metagame.
You need to capture a fleeing criminal, he kills you, you go back to the hospital, buy supplies, call up your buddies, come back... And he's still there. You get trapped inside Mot, you die, you get to go back out and try again. You're deep within the Shadow Shard, you die, you get bumped back to Earth. It breaks down the narrative in a very evident attempt to NOT institute permadeath, even in situations where getting killed and leaving the instance should be fatal for the mission. Again, any encounter where intentional failure is part of eventual success is badly designed, as far as I'm concerned. The last thing we need is a retread of the "vengeance bait" mentality. |
This truly demonstrates the essential flaw in Samuel Tow's thinking. He never wants to lose....ever. Reading his posts in this thread, it becomes clear that he jury-rigs the game to the extent possible to eliminate all risk. So, of course, he never gets better at the game. Of course, he complains about every mission that's difficult. He's spent the better part of a decade trying to eliminate all risk.
I love the anecdote about trying other games. I have no doubt that playing other MMORPGs where the game enforces a minimum level of risk would be difficult. I have little doubt the developers intentionally have been stepping up the risk in the game. This is a good thing. Players have an extremely deep set of resources in this game. There is no solo mission where minimal preparation could not result in a win.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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And I'm sure it's totally a coincidence that this started happening at the same time they started selling various buffs and boosts in the Paragon Market...
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I have little doubt the developers intentionally have been stepping up the risk in the game.
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So no, you don't want to "play the game", you want the game changed to accommodate your inability to deal with the small amount of actual challenge & adversity it presents.
That's the work of a few minutes- in my experience others are happy to lend a hand when someone is stuck.
All my suggestions work fine for players who're looking for solutions rather than excuses to complain.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone