A fight against incredibly strong enemies that most ATs won't be able to beat on their own.


AkuTenshiiZero

 

Posted

There is a definite distinction between "unfair" and "hard". I don't object to things being hard, even really hard; I do object to "unfair".

I'm not sure exactly how I would define the boundary, but I think the key is, it's not the same thing as difficulty or chance of failure. A mission which is really tough, and where I would typically be able to complete it 50% of the time is unusually hard for an MMO, but it's not necessarily unfair. A mission which is cakewalk easy, except there's a 10% chance of being automatically killed without any chance to react or do something about it, is not nearly as "hard" -- but it's unfair.

I do think the tendency for absolutely all ambushes to ignore hide is "unfair" -- it violates the character premise. The game offers me a chance to play a character who picks when to fight, and then says "oh, but you don't actually get a vote in that in these missions". I would have similar feelings about, say, mobs who were completely immune to controls when playing a controller. Or if I were playing a scrapper, I'd feel that way about mobs that were somehow able to guarantee that they were always out of melee range; not just able to get out sometimes, but who could not be contained, or taunted, or anything, and were never in melee range. That wouldn't be fun anymore.

I generally figure that I come into a mission, or the game, with a baseline notion of what the terms of engagement are. Missions which violate those terms are not a fun break in routine; they're just cheating.

Imagine, if you will, that we were talking about PvP, and some players had cheats that let them break the rules. Would people be talking about how awesome it is that the game had this kind of variety, or would they just complain that it was cheating? I'd guess the latter.

I recognize that there are often alternative tools available to make it at least possible to beat these, but after stalking my way through Praetoria, and spending 5-10 minutes of many missions just hanging out near a corner waiting for the five or six ambushes to all wander through, then a couple more minutes waiting to be sure they were done... Yeah, that wasn't actually fun, it was just annoying. Timed glowy-hunt mission with insanely huge waves of ambushes if you aren't fast enough? Nope, not actually fun, because "random item that could be anywhere from here to three map changes from here" is not a fair puzzle; I think it should be at least in principle consistently possible to succeed with skilled play.

CoH is hardly the only offender here, but I think it sort of stands out for two reasons:
1. Lots of very erratic mechanics and quirks due to engine limitations.
2. Baseline experience is so very easy to begin with.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
I do think the tendency for absolutely all ambushes to ignore hide is "unfair" -- it violates the character premise.
They don't so much ignore Hide as they start off aggroed, demonstrating that this game has no real Hide mechanic, and what passes for one is actually an aggro mechanic - you mess with the range at which enemies aggro on you, but have no control over them past that. And yes, it is unfair, and it's unfair for exactly the reasons you mention: We're given these tools that are supposed to work a certain way, except when they just don't because the game isn't nearly interactive enough to work with these systems.

Oh, sure, you could have ambushes that target a specific location so the Stalker can engage one, pull them away and be elsewhere when the next one arrives. This happens occasionally... VERY occasionally... And it works well. So why doesn't it happen more often?

It's the same with the "running boss" mechanic or the "protect objective" mechanic. Specifically, I've had a lot of "fun" discussing the mission to stop Agent Crimson from escaping. The guy tosses a Web Grenade at you, turns on Elude and takes off running at super speed. And he's an AV. Or how about the one to stop Biff from escaping? Not only is he a very tough to kill EB, he's also immune to most control effects and also very fast. The solution people give me? Use lots of immobilize attacks and slows. And if I don't have them? Use lots of immobilize and slow attacks. Also, drwon less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
I recognize that there are often alternative tools available to make it at least possible to beat these, but after stalking my way through Praetoria, and spending 5-10 minutes of many missions just hanging out near a corner waiting for the five or six ambushes to all wander through, then a couple more minutes waiting to be sure they were done...
I wouldn't call that so much unfair as just terrible mission design. I don't know who's responsible for this, but apparently at least one mission designer at at least one point was thoroughly convinced that ambushes were the one-size-fits-all solution to any mission in the game. Fighting a Freak boss? Ambushes. Escorting an NPC out? Ambushes. Walking down a corridor? Ambushes. Even if player-targeted ambushes (and ten waves of 'em at a time... then hell?!?) weren't so cheating against at least a couple of ATs, they're just a boring as hell mechanic to have in EVERY mission. They make every single mission that they're heavily involved with into an endless mosh pit, and essentially the exact same mission over and over again. Even a kill-all isn't as dull because that, at least, is an active process that sees you visit more than all of one room.

---

That's really the point where talks break down - the line between what's difficult and what's plain not fun. Yes, solutions to problems exist. I can keep tossing my corpse at a problem and eventually it'll go away even if I do nothing else right. That's a solution, but it's a solution that makes for the complete opposite of a fun game. Getting help is, similarly, not a one-size-fits-all solution. What if there aren't enough people about? What if the person I asked for help turns out to be a right jerk (that happens quite often)? I know there are solutions, but not all of them make for a fun game, and if that's the case... Why shouldn't I just use mission-drop?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I took a stalker through Praetoria, and though the ambush mechanic can be annoying at times, I never saw the ambushes as something that the stalker needs to plow through. I treated the ambushes as "reinforcements" to the mission much like how AVs will often call on reinforcements, and instead would fight my way through enemy mobs quicker to avoid dealing with them instead of sitting back and killing them all. Doing this you'll still go from 1-20 while soloing.



TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
I took a stalker through Praetoria, and though the ambush mechanic can be annoying at times, I never saw the ambushes as something that the stalker needs to plow through. I treated the ambushes as "reinforcements" to the mission much like how AVs will often call on reinforcements, and instead would fight my way through enemy mobs quicker to avoid dealing with them instead of sitting back and killing them all. Doing this you'll still go from 1-20 while soloing.
That's pretty hard to do when your mission objective is to defeat 10 waves of ambushes, as is the case multiple times. The Ghouls mission, another Ghouls mission for the Resistance Crusaders towards the end and so forth. It's nowhere near rare enough to be "rare."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I (mostly) soloed a brute through Night Ward this last week, at +1x0, bosses on (my usual setting for this character). It was still frustratingly hard in some places, if not impossible, even with brute resists, inspirations, and self-rezzes from Willpower and a vet reward.

When defending the mansion, I did as the mission text suggested and got help from someone else I saw hanging around - a stalker. Who knew? We quickly found out what others have noted re: Night Ward enemies and stalkers, and also had considerable trouble with the last trio of EBs until we were able to pull them up to where Ward could help (and, by chance, took down the named one first - my habit is to peel off helpers, who often heal or otherwise buff the main boss, before finishing them. In this case, however, defeating just her made the other two vanish. Wish I'd have known ten minutes earlier).

Attacking the asylum was properly epic, and I did take some screenshots as I charged up the hill in the vanguard, surrounded by fellow knights. Then I had the bad luck/poor judgment to actually listen to the "It's Up To You" flavor text, and vaulted over that final skirmish line to try to engage Malaise all by myself. I probably still could have managed it without having to rez (two or three times), if not for the constant taunting. Inability to stay targeted made this more frustrating than fun for me; it was like being under constant confusion. (One of the new trends I'm seeing and not liking is for the designers to laugh at characters who thought having mez protection meant that they were, you know, protected from mez.) It wasn't until reading this very thread that I even considered that the smart thing to do would be to sit back, mop up the blockers, and then let my NPC allies take the boss(es) apart for me. How heroic!

(On a somewhat related note, when I did the DA arcs for Solaris, I learned from my first attempt at the faux-ITF that I might as well just choose to solo it, as my "helpers" will be dead halfway through anyway, leaving me to deal with the rest of it myself.)

In the final encounter in the prison, I just died. And died and died. My NPC helpers were wiped out in the first attempt, and after that even my brute couldn't stand up to what I was up against. The only reason I finished that mission is that the story continued, and the mission was marked as completed, while I was face down on the floor. Really, if it's gonna play out like that, can't we just make it a cutscene and do away with the illusion that this fight is winnable?

As an aside, I reject the assertion by some that an appropriate solution is a tray loaded with reds and purples, because it renders the character's actual abilities (and strengths and weaknesses) irrelevant. It's like saying "no one needs mez protection because we have Clarion" or "no one needs AoE damage because we have Judgments." I submit that effectively replacing the character's normal damage output and defenses with "capped/capped for ___ seconds" is not good play or game design.


My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City

 

Posted

I hardest EB I have battle is Evil Manicore.... He is level 50... or now he is 50+... now he is 50++ now I can't hit him... I might have got him down to 50% Hit Points and so couldn't beat me. I used two rows or Enrages and Lucks then Unstoppable and couldn't beat him... That was with my Tank. I can't do it with him I am sure I can't do it with my other heroes or villains.

I should try it again but with Ivy help.... She was killed because I stop paying attention to my Hit Points so I died lol.
NEVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_NA View Post
I hardest EB I have battle is Evil Manicore
You mean Chimera?

Ummm......hate to break this to you dude....but Chimera is the one most people pick to find out if their character can solo an AV.

And how the hell did an EB that does all Lethal damage manage to kill an Invuln tank?!?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
You mean Chimera?

Ummm......hate to break this to you dude....but Chimera is the one most people pick to find out if their character can solo an AV.

And how the hell did an EB that does all Lethal damage manage to kill an Invuln tank?!?
I think he's referring to Chimera in Belladonna's arc, where he gets a Tub Chi type level shift mid-way through the fight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I think he's referring to Chimera in Belladonna's arc, where he gets a Tub Chi type level shift mid-way through the fight.
Yes, that Chimera mission =) There one in Bella's Arc


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
There is a definite distinction between "unfair" and "hard". I don't object to things being hard, even really hard; I do object to "unfair".

I'm not sure exactly how I would define the boundary, but I think the key is, it's not the same thing as difficulty or chance of failure. A mission which is really tough, and where I would typically be able to complete it 50% of the time is unusually hard for an MMO, but it's not necessarily unfair. A mission which is cakewalk easy, except there's a 10% chance of being automatically killed without any chance to react or do something about it, is not nearly as "hard" -- but it's unfair.

I do think the tendency for absolutely all ambushes to ignore hide is "unfair" -- it violates the character premise. The game offers me a chance to play a character who picks when to fight, and then says "oh, but you don't actually get a vote in that in these missions". I would have similar feelings about, say, mobs who were completely immune to controls when playing a controller. Or if I were playing a scrapper, I'd feel that way about mobs that were somehow able to guarantee that they were always out of melee range; not just able to get out sometimes, but who could not be contained, or taunted, or anything, and were never in melee range. That wouldn't be fun anymore.

I generally figure that I come into a mission, or the game, with a baseline notion of what the terms of engagement are. Missions which violate those terms are not a fun break in routine; they're just cheating.

Imagine, if you will, that we were talking about PvP, and some players had cheats that let them break the rules. Would people be talking about how awesome it is that the game had this kind of variety, or would they just complain that it was cheating? I'd guess the latter.

I recognize that there are often alternative tools available to make it at least possible to beat these, but after stalking my way through Praetoria, and spending 5-10 minutes of many missions just hanging out near a corner waiting for the five or six ambushes to all wander through, then a couple more minutes waiting to be sure they were done... Yeah, that wasn't actually fun, it was just annoying. Timed glowy-hunt mission with insanely huge waves of ambushes if you aren't fast enough? Nope, not actually fun, because "random item that could be anywhere from here to three map changes from here" is not a fair puzzle; I think it should be at least in principle consistently possible to succeed with skilled play.

CoH is hardly the only offender here, but I think it sort of stands out for two reasons:
1. Lots of very erratic mechanics and quirks due to engine limitations.
2. Baseline experience is so very easy to begin with.
I like this post a lot.

CoH can very easily tilt towards "unfair" because it's a game where you and your target RNG at one another until one of you dies. There's no dodging or aiming or tactical thought. You just stand there and if you 92.55 his 67.83 then you've done damage to him. If he 55.01s your 47.30 then you're taking the hit.

For Brutes, losing one RNG roll usually isn't a big deal. For squishier ATs, it can mean most of their health bar. Meanwhile they have to RNG a lot harder if they want to pull off a win. There's no real "skill" thing here, since what can you do aside from tilt the RNG in your favor?

Well, exploit the AI, but... You know, "skill."

And then the stalker thing, but... seebs said it best.


 

Posted

ok.. I just started Night Ward...

Let me tell you first.. My toon is a fully tricked out Necro/dark/soul mm. I can do tips on +4/x8 solo... I did normal arcs like that too.

I do like challenges.. and i do use inspirations to get through something. I am old school player and will pull to get through something.

Normal old content and tips...
+2/x8 - +4/x8 on lvl 50

First Ward
+1/x4 on lower level

Night Ward...
Ouch.. I forgot the repp change and went in on +1/x8... This is what happened...
The apparitions I slaughtered without dying once. Completely no problem. On encounter of my first drudge mob I see my zombies die in 20 seconds... I am instantly hold. I swallow a break free... stunn a lot of them.. respawn my zombs.. they die again (4 in one hit, not sure what they used). So I run out of the portal again.

Resummon pets.. buff up. Swallow Break Free. Jump in portal.. 25 sec laters all my zombs are down and I am hold again... Run!

This goes on a few times. Remember... most of the enemy are using dark stuff... and my toon has 45% ress to negative energy and 11% def to negative energy. This was absolutly worth nothing on this repp.

What I try telling here is that The first ward is way more challenging then anything else on that level
And the Night Ward is much much heavier than anything else on that level and the mobs heavier then the normal mobs.

This can bring players in problems....

I will retry at _1/x4 same as I did all of First Ward incl end boss as AV solo. And then see again.


- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I think he's referring to Chimera in Belladonna's arc, where he gets a Tub Chi type level shift mid-way through the fight.
That would explain it then.

I haven't run that arc yet, so I didn't know he was in it.

And as far as the Night Ward stuff goes, the first time I fought the Drudges, they wiped the floor with me. After I knew what to expect from them it was smooth sailing. I ran it on a Dark Armor tank though, so I was pretty strong against the damage they were dealing.

I LIKE hard stuff in this game. I've been playing long enough that I have all the enemy groups down pat. It's nice to have to learn the quirks of a new group once in a while.

Hint: If you can mez or otherwise incapacitate the Watchers before they summon their pet, the fight is a LOT easier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.