Thank You for Making Me Useless
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-06-05 19:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Thunderspark
If there's a reason to complain about masterminds in iTrials, only TPN comes to mind. Having to keep pets in passive mode for almost the entire duration of the trial (because you never know when you'll be warped out and your pets will automatically start shooting civvies) is crippling, even at +3.
Who'd have thought that with all our potent incarnate abilities, a molotov cocktail is still more deadly than facing off against the IDF? |
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Keeping your pets on passive for almost the entire duration? Well your doing something wrong there. Your inside more than you are outside, and when outside passive, and run behind buildings to avoid aggro. There's a warning to tell you your being teleported, one click and problem solved. |
When that trial ended I'd helped take down technicians at terminals, helped defeat mobs pulled to the center to free the terminals, buffed my team mates and debuffed Maelstorm during all 3 battles and not one time did my henchmen attack a camera or a civilian while outside. It doesn't take that long to click once and put all pets on Passive ... I like to keep them that way until I get past the guards at the entrance of each facility anyway so I don't have 4-5 mobs following me around trying to kill me.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Well, that's kind of interesting, because being dead should cause them to lose the buff no matter what.
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This is a palm face.
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Pretty sure AV's have been curb stomping pets for quite a while, even some EBs.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Also, nice try, but I was on light duty. They were +5s +6s before I sent them in, for just this very reason. Ol' bossypants still one- or two-shotted them with AoEs because the devs wanted him to have lulz epic aoezes. Ostracizing an entire archetype is no way to design a boss.
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Certainly true, though I would argue that missions and Task Forces are in a different context from Incarnate Trials. No one person is expected to be able to do much to an arch-villain: the Tanker might be able to hold the aggro, the Controller might be able to debuff it, and the Stalker might be able to damage it, but soloing them isn't exactly considered normal game play.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Pretty sure AV's have been curb stomping pets for quite a while, even some EBs.
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With a good team, though, arch-villains won't kill anyone. Not even pets. Still, this is all in the context of missions and Task Forces.
Incarnate Trials, as stated by the devs, are designed to be accessible in such a way that you don't need an uber-team to complete them, but anyone is allowed to join in and help out. This doesn't mean you can form an all-Tanker Magisterium and expect to complete it on time, but under no circumstances should anyone be turned away from a Trial because their class is perceived totally ineffective for the task.
Tyrant does a lot of damage, and I see why they did it that way. They even tossed in ye olde patch o' death mechanic to keep it from being a typical tank-n-spank, but he's still a level 54+5 Arch-villain with stronger-than-normal AoEs to boot. You send a low-HP minion in to glare at him funny and he'll get vaporized.
In the context of an accessible activity that anyone can join, Masterminds are rendered useless except for whatever buffs and debuffs they can put out. And that's not exactly their strong suit.
There is a flaw in Tyrant's design. The devs need to make changes.
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Ranged pets would do well to have all their melee attacks removed. Just replace brawl with another ranged power that fits the concept. For Spec Ops, give them something other than Rifle Butt, and for the Medic, give him the normal attacks that non-medic soldiers get.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It's not just TPN. You try running Keyes on a Bots/Traps and tell me how much 'fun' it is. Or a BAF, where the pets run where the hell they will, and then get Tower Sniped. Or a lambda, where they INSIST on running in to punch Marauder in the face. Despite the fact they are Bots. With lasers. And Rockets. And oh look, Nova Fist, all dead. Oh well, respawn th- why am I catching artillery in the face?!
Playing a Bots/Traps MM, for one, is just too painful in Incarnate content. Why? Because not only does it punish MMs a helluva lot, BUT THE PET AI IS STILL PANTS ON HEAD! Dear lord, it's been fecked since Demons came out, and still fecked when Beasts came out. I haven't touched my MM in ages, because it makes it so gods damned NOT FUN when I order my pets to do something and they IGNORE ME. I tell them to attack something, they go and brawl it in the face! Is that hard to understand why it sucks like crazy?  |
For Bots it just boils down to replacing Brawl with a slug-like power from Beam Rifle or whatever. Until the Mastermind Pet AI is fixed to not be completely moronic, this is the best suggestion I can make for ranged-using MMs. Oh, and remove Poison Dart from Ninjas Tier 2 pets, what a waste of Hide.
Of course go figure the Necro/Dark or really Necro/Demons/Beasts/Ninjas primaries as a whole are useless due to being melee.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
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Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
I play a bots/PD MM she was my first character i did not know better 
but i still enjoy playing her a lot and i am quite good at it.
I always find it interesting in these discussions how some MM's are like "man this sucks!" and others are like" no problems here!" Here are some of my observations and opinions
As far as BaF goes they fixed that runaway pet thing.. thank god and MMs are quite good at Baf.
LAM.. i just dismiss the things.. the pace you have to run and the fact they may or may not clog the doors i find it just easier to send them away till i fight Marauder. I spend my time healing /buffing inside. ( this has earned me a participation penalty a few times =/)
TPN I do not even bother calling out my tier 1s even with the new "fixed" cocktails they still get one shot being on passive does not stop them from getting hit anyway! so i mostly just use my tier 2 and 3.
Keyes.. hrm this one is.. well again lots of movement and again even on passive your minions still get aggro. So what you end up doing is dragging a nice little train with you or again your bots just get creamed while your moving to the next objective or trying to keep up with the group.
Even with level shifting minions still... lack something Tech bot is having issues and Bots traps are.. pretty darn potent!
Is it frustrating? yes oh heck yes.. do i feel useless? Nah my secondary has value. I have even thought about making a second build with my weapons and just Tier 2 and 3 minions to use on trials. Do i wish Minions scaled better and got tougher?( and i'm not talking about level shifting) oh sure i do! But.. that's not likely to happen anytime soon. From what i have researched MMs have not gotten any love in a very long time and likely will not for some time to come... so i will enjoy what i do have! In Solo content shes a beast now that i have a couple shifts!
On a side note why is it.. in nearly every thread where someone talks about something not working.. someone says " oh yeah.. well well PvP is broke!" My advice? Do what i said in the paragraph above accept that it is not going to change anytime soon and enjoy what you have now!
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No, dude, I am happy you brought it up. I feel people are completely ignoring the subject, hence why I said "I thought we weren't supposed to talk about it".
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
WR - "Thank you for bringing that subject of i13 back up."
Sorry man, was just using it as an example and i didnt know most ppl were still sore about it. I dont like i13, but I still PvP when I can...it was 10 issues ago  CGM - "Technically it was supposed to be the start of an on-going project to fix PVP... but immaturity and impatience caused those bridges to be burned from both ends." Youll have to explain that one to me good sir. |
Fight The Power
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Unfortunately, while good on paper, it doesn't work on paper.|
Originally Posted by Zul_Vakirol
Ranged pets would do well to have all their melee attacks removed. Just replace brawl with another ranged power that fits the concept. For Spec Ops, give them something other than Rifle Butt, and for the Medic, give him the normal attacks that non-medic soldiers get.
For Bots it just boils down to replacing Brawl with a slug-like power from Beam Rifle or whatever. Until the Mastermind Pet AI is fixed to not be completely moronic, this is the best suggestion I can make for ranged-using MMs. Oh, and remove Poison Dart from Ninjas Tier 2 pets, what a waste of Hide. Of course go figure the Necro/Dark or really Necro/Demons/Beasts/Ninjas primaries as a whole are useless due to being melee. |
Because, as was proven during a bugged period with the likes of Rikti drones; AI can and WILL go and stand next to an enemy, for no reason, even with NO melee attack.
The AI, and in particular the pet AI, is super mega pants on head. It really, really needs fixing.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This is text interactions meaning you missed how I would have said that sentence out loud and with what body language.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
This is a palm face.
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Hint. It was dripping in sarcasm.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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QFT - when I20 launched my Brute would stand in range of a Pylon while waiting for an MSR to start - my Seeker (untouchable support pet) would IMMEDIATELY leave my side and charge the Pylon... despite the fact that she had NO attacks whatsoever. Really glad they fixed that (though my Monsoon elemental WILL sometimes leave my blaster to go heal my other Storm Elemental, then stay away for hurricane spam).
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Because, as was proven during a bugged period with the likes of Rikti drones; AI can and WILL go and stand next to an enemy, for no reason, even with NO melee attack.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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For all the good they do in the Tyrant fight, sure. The only benefit to being a tanker against Tyrant is the hit points.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
let's turn off all Tanker sheilds
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I have this distinct feeling that you got smacked down and are now trying to make this into something else.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Dun dun dunnnnnn!
Nope, you both missed the mark. That thread's talking about some level shift bug. Totally not the issue here. I send in my pets to fight Tyrant. They immediately come back in little bitty pieces. While we're at it, let's turn off all Tanker sheilds, remove Blaster ranged attacks and prevent Stalkers from doing anything in melee! |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
We beat him. Got a couple badges and everything. I was holding the pom-poms.
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Points at pvp forums |
Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
No, dude, I am happy you brought it up. I feel people are completely ignoring the subject, hence why I said "I thought we weren't supposed to talk about it".
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Completely appropriate place for people to continue to go on and on and on.. like they have been for the past 3+ years since i13.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Thanks for that man but I dont know if I agree with your original statement about both parties being in the wrong.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
They initially tried to revamp PVP for two major reasons: because a lot of players just didn't like it and the nerfs made to players in PVE for PVP reasons (since the systems were originally one in the same), and because "City of Hero" (the Korean port of the game) was floundering, and the investors felt that a more active PVP community might save it. Castle, the lead powers developer before Synapse, heard the complaints of what people didn't like about what is now usually called "i12 PVP" and came up with some ideas on how to counteract those problems, as well as a way to divorce the PVE and PVP systems so players would no longer have to worry about being nerfed for balance in one system while participating in the other. (See Energy Melee: once the king of single target damage, now one of the most underperforming attack sets in the game in all areas but burst damage... mostly because it was considered overpowered in PVP.)
After Castle's initial round of changes--which were intended, as I said, to be the first steps in a long-standing project--the members of the PVP community who had been invited to the beta hated it and leaked all the changes outside of the closed beta, all but ruining the developers' ability to get decent data and feedback on the changes. There were harsh words on both sides of the ensuing arguments--one of the former community reps actually lost his job over a comment he made retorting to the already enraged PVPers--and it was decided to put PVP in maintenance mode until things had cooled off enough to try again. Unfortunately, Castle took another job offer, so PVP hasn't changed a whole lot since. The existing development team is understandably wary of broaching the subject again, though Posi has said on record a few times that they have some ideas they'd like to try when they've got room in the development schedule, but it is unlikely that they'll be anywhere near as sweeping as those changes made in i13. (In my humble opinion, PVP isn't really any worse off after Issue 13 than before it. Some things that were problems before were fixed, some new problems arose as a result, but mostly, the changes that Castle made were cranked all the way to 11 when they should have been set more in the 2-5 range.) |
The items I have control over as a player is to play/not play and pay/not pay.
I would think that developers have to be held responsible for whether game changes are made or not made.
At the end of the day, I dont want to invite "that" PvP discussion that always happens when this topic surfaces. It was 04 years ago, I still PvP when I can and its not great, but it is what it is.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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There is also that "Go To The Spot I'm Clicking" command... i'm pretty sure it still exists because i've used it in the past to make a pet leave melee range, but it has been a while since i played a Mastermind much.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I was never able to find that elusive "jump in and out" pet command. I have "attack my target," which gets them killed. I have "follow me," which doesn't help accomplish the task at hand. I also have "dismiss," which doesn't seem to be detrimental in any way...
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Now admittedly there are occasions when they won't listen to *any* commands for more than 2 or 3 seconds, but that's a slightly different problem. Anyway, using "go to" and "attack my target" after each other has previously worked for getting my bots to shoot from range. Also useful for ordering them away from damage patches, but that's only useful if the command is still in the game and if the pets listen.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't supremacy equalize pet levels in incarnate trials now? If so, they should all be the same level as the player, and thus if they were affected by all the lights as the devs intended (but not quite as they are working now) if the player was +3 the pets (and the player) should have been +9 - even-con to Tyrant.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I checked them in the target window before sending them in. They were usually +5 or +6. If that's a fluke then so be it, but there were +5 and +6 pancakes on the ground a few seconds later. (-:
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That means that at least some of the problems masterminds have with pets can in fact be partially related to the shift bug, because their pets are having to face Tyrant at -3 rather than at even.
On the other hand, if the player is not +3 shifted to start, I would expect them to be on the ground a lot regardless of archetype.
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Could and would, but nobody pays attention to that section.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Points at pvp forums
Completely appropriate place for people to continue to go on and on and on.. like they have been for the past 3+ years since i13. |
Fight The Power
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Maybe that should tell people something?
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Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
Could and would, but nobody pays attention to that section.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Or vice versa
Fight The Power
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*yawwwwn*|
Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
Or vice versa
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So back on actual topic for this thread . . . which you know, wasn't talking about pvp for the 211212133232th time?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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It prevents them from being hit by the purple patch, but they're still level 48 in terms of Damage, Base HP and Mez duration.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't supremacy equalize pet levels in incarnate trials now? If so, they should all be the same level as the player, and thus if they were affected by all the lights as the devs intended (but not quite as they are working now) if the player was +3 the pets (and the player) should have been +9 - even-con to Tyrant.
That means that at least some of the problems masterminds have with pets can in fact be partially related to the shift bug, because their pets are having to face Tyrant at -3 rather than at even. On the other hand, if the player is not +3 shifted to start, I would expect them to be on the ground a lot regardless of archetype. |
It's why my blaster can down a level 51 IDF Commander (say, in Maria Jenkins arc) with no level shifts faster than he can take down a level 54 while packing 3 Level/Incarnate shifts.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I'm aware of that, but the numerical difference between intrinsic 48 and intrinsic 50 is trivial, within the context of this discussion. For reference, a level 50 minion has 430.8 health. A level 48 minion has 428.3 health. That's 99.42% of the health of a level 50. Another way of looking at it is that in relative terms the level 48 takes about 0.58% more relative damage. A little more than half of one percent. Their outgoing damage is reduced by about 1% relative to if they were intrinsic level 50s. There is no scaling resistance to mez for critters, so they would be mezzed by the same length of time as an intrinsic 50. But if you meant the pets' ability to mez other things, that's also reduced by similarly trivial values. And there isn't all that much for the pets to mez in the Tyrant fight.|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
It prevents them from being hit by the purple patch, but they're still level 48 in terms of Damage, Base HP and Mez duration.
It's why my blaster can down a level 51 IDF Commander (say, in Maria Jenkins arc) with no level shifts faster than he can take down a level 54 while packing 3 Level/Incarnate shifts. |
One other thing, if you have three level shifts, then you'll have one in Maria fighting a level 51 and be even to it (because Alpha's shift works so long as incarnate powers are available). You'll be -1 to a level 54 in an incarnate trial or DA. That would be why you can down 51s in non-incarnate zones faster than 54s in incarnate zones: the critters have gotten +3 higher, but you've only gotten +2 higher.
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I suppose I should've been more specific - I meant fighting as an actual, unshifted 50 (For example, a character who JUST unlocked alpha, or running Maria Jenkins with this sort of stuff disabled - AT only powers, etc).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One other thing, if you have three level shifts, then you'll have one in Maria fighting a level 51 and be even to it (because Alpha's shift works so long as incarnate powers are available). You'll be -1 to a level 54 in an incarnate trial or DA. That would be why you can down 51s in non-incarnate zones faster than 54s in incarnate zones: the critters have gotten +3 higher, but you've only gotten +2 higher.
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If I had a level 50+1 fighting 52s then it's little difference.
Actually, I remember my example - I was a 49 running on a team fighting 50s - It was my warshade so my Novas damage powers weren't changed after the fact.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Depending on where you were relative to the buff source and the rest of the league, sending your pets in may have caused them to lose the buff. It pulses like auto and toggle powers, so it changes dynamically as the order of targets changes. So as your distance from the source changes, you might lose the buffs because you're now not one of the 16 closest targets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA