We have it good...
Not sure I follow what could be considered cheating about it? Is it because it can be used to level up a lowbie very fast?
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So heroes start here:
![](http://na.cityofheroes.com/global/includes/images/mt4/game_info/screens/Atlas3.jpg)
But by the time they hit the high levels they will be exploring places like this:
![](http://images.wikia.com/paragon/images/a/ab/The_Chantry.jpg)
The ability to explore a place like the Shadow Shard is itself a reward. It gives you a eye candy representation of your increase in power. In fantasy games this is even more pronounced.
Now originally, even in City of Heroes, you could only side-kick in standard zones. Hazard zones like the Shadow-Shard were actually off-limits until your natural level was appropriate for the zone. Why? Well, I don't know, but I doubt it was because they were concerned for player safety. If so, they would have kept you out of Peregrine. No, I think the idea was to make exploring these places an actual reward for leveling. Now if side-kicking allows you to circumvent that, it's a form of cheating. Not BIG 'C' cheating as you need to ban the person, but cheating as in "You're cheating yourself out of the experience". That's what I meant.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Naw, see that really doesn't fly. If there was an "I Win" button in the game that would immediately give you a level 50 with 2 Billion influence, you don't get to say, "You have the choice not to use it." The game is meaningless if you don't have to play the game.
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It's like your objections (well-founded IMO) against the more pay-to-win aspects of the Marketplace. We always have a choice not to buy purple enhancers, or super-packs or those ridiculous Amplifiers they have on test. But that doesn't mean that including all those things isn't moving the game towards pay to win.
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Side-kicking is orders of degrees away from those, but it does (mildly) cheapen the experience just by existing. This is why many developers have rejected the concept immediately.
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Yeah there is no way this is how you put it at first but yeah ok.....
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I hate strawmen. If you are going to bother typing answers out please make comparisons that directly relate or just stay specific to the "actual" issue please. The strawman case you bring up is different and does not have "anything" to do with what I said because it is too extreme there is no I win button and I win is not at issue here.
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GD it here you go again. The "only" thing I have said about the market or Supergamble packs is that anything sold should be earnable in the game. Nothing more nothing less. |
Side kicking is a separate not equal issue that stands alone on its own merits regardless of the multiple deals you got going on there. And once again thanking the deity on bent knees at least the devs see this and in the end that is all that matters. |
Yeah there is no way this is how you put it at first but yeah ok..... |
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
The problems with the opposite of side kicking are often just as bad if not much worse.
Example: Optimal way to run low level dungeons becomes having a high level player run ahead of a lower level party and just nuke the whole thing. It turns out it is very, very hard to design a game where this doesn't become the ideal in quest-driven MMOs. So the best alternative is to just give the low level character a partial but incomplete boost so they can at least do something. Some games just set up ropes that preent high leel characters from playing with low levels altogether, but IMO that's the most frustrating possible solution.
CoX's level structure is IMO one of the most elegantly designed things about it. If I were designing an RPG it would be my starting point even if I didn't plan to specifically allow super sidekicking or exemplaring. Those two things work in CoX because level archetitecure allowed it. Other games often don't even have the foundation to make it work.
IMO side kicking itself in this game is probably doing more these days to make it harder rather than easier outside of outright farming. Where you used to be able to assume at least half of a level 50 team was around level 50, I've been on teams recently where that was true for very few members and everyone else was in the 20s. The structure of leveling in this game might let you technically run around at "Effective Level" 50, but you still definitely feel your "Real Level" of 20 when you do it.
The best way to think about it is to consider how MMORPGs are usually structured. In many MMORPGs, including this one, you move from more mundane tasks to much more grandiose and important ones. And the enemies and locales tend to match.
So heroes start here: But by the time they hit the high levels they will be exploring places like this: The ability to explore a place like the Shadow Shard is itself a reward. It gives you a eye candy representation of your increase in power. In fantasy games this is even more pronounced. Now originally, even in City of Heroes, you could only side-kick in standard zones. Hazard zones like the Shadow-Shard were actually off-limits until your natural level was appropriate for the zone. Why? Well, I don't know, but I doubt it was because they were concerned for player safety. If so, they would have kept you out of Peregrine. No, I think the idea was to make exploring these places an actual reward for leveling. Now if side-kicking allows you to circumvent that, it's a form of cheating. Not BIG 'C' cheating as you need to ban the person, but cheating as in "You're cheating yourself out of the experience". That's what I meant. |
This only applies to zones and story arcs, TFs still have minimum levels. And the specific reward, merits, is not given to the SKed players. So I think the current system is a good compromise between the extremes of "level for hours to join your friends" and "content is not restricted by levels".
On a more general note, MMOs tend to remove "padding" as they age and get more "real" content. One popular game went a bit overboard with this - players there outlevel content that is meant to be played in sequence, without outside buffs.
So CoX does not need the Shadow Shard zone as a reward for leveling up now, because it has the 45-50 SF/TFs, 40+ SSAs and Incarnate system to fulfill this purpose. But back in i2 it was needed.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
CoX's level structure is IMO one of the most elegantly designed things about it. If I were designing an RPG it would be my starting point even if I didn't plan to specifically allow super sidekicking or exemplaring. Those two things work in CoX because level archetitecure allowed it. Other games often don't even have the foundation to make it work.
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One forum name, two members: Molly Hackett & Heliphyneau.
AE arcs:
27327 - Enter the Homunculi
176837 - Homunculi 2: Tectonic Boogaloo -- UPDATED
Well we do have a portion of the player base that has such an aversion to the Star/Team Leader position that they literally have been seen standing in a circle at contacts/trainers for teams/tf's/trials spamming LFT for over an hour and then complaining that the server is dead and they can't find teams.
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That is definitely something that is true about this game (OP). A lot of the games have this problem for several reasons:
#1: Required class system. I hear sometimes in will stand around forever while waiting for a "healer" to join so they can go. Or a tank, or something like that. CoH is quite flexible in that respect.
#2: Level restrictions. CoH has the sidekick system and has lower limits on certain content, but otherwise it is come one come all.
#3: Equipment requirements. CoH is based around SOs, which basically means that you can play through it without uber optimizing with particular IO sets and 1337 building skills.
And so finding a team is really easy. Of course, there is the discussion going on about team leaders. This is something that I noticed, and actually a habit I developed through life. In school, all the way back to elementary school, whenever there was some group project where the team needed to decide on a project or a name or something, they would all turn to me with the dumbest look on their face, pleading "Save us, Blood!" in their eyes. I'd ask them what they think, and then silence. I'd ask for ideas, and silence. If I said nothing, the entire time would be filled with awkward glances at each other while we waited for someone to say something. That someone would, of course, turn out to be me, because I cared about my grades a bit and no one else was going to.
And this translated into the same thing in the game. I'm a frequent trial leader not because I excel at it, but because I don't like waiting around for someone else to start a trial. Ditto with TFs/SFs, and even once or twice Mothership and Hammi raids. And there really isn't a more grand explanation than that. I learned that if you want something done, you've got to do it yourself. Players in the game do have this timidness about them that makes them not want to lead anything. It's like videogames carried the spectator effect over from real life into them. So, for content that I am not familiar with to content that I am well versed in, I give it the good ole' college try. Usually it works out.
Something that I do hear a lot from players is this: "But I don't know how to lead a group!". This truly is the burden of the wise. The fact is that there isn't any special class or secret instruction that lets you lead a group. What leadership is, at it's best, is just using common sense to resolve an issue, then telling other people what to do. It's problem solving where you tell other people how to solve the problem as well, and deal with the people who refuse to listen. So, to make a short list on how to lead a group...
Step #1: Know what happens. If you don't know, then find out somehow (google it, youtube it, do it once while not leading, ect).
Step #2: Know what to do when stuff happens. If you don't know, then find out somehow. If you can't find anything, then you'll have to problem solve.
Step #3: Take initiative to start whatever it is you want to lead.
Step #4: Tell other people what happens.
Step #5: Tell other people what to do.
And that is basically it. There are some minor details to handle as you go on, but those are essentially all that is needed when you are leading a group. Probably the hardest part of being a leader is when something goes wrong. Then, you have to do the whole "what happened, what should I do, tell the group" thing rather quickly. That, or fail and then learn from the mistake for the next time. After awhile, from seeing other people do things to doing things yourself, you start to develop that leadership skill.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Full disclosure: I predominantly play solo now but used to play in PUG's as my predominant form of teaming.
I would never have stuck with this game, or any other, if I'd had to have waited for up to an hour to team. When I first started teaming I used to be guilty of playing Hot Potato with the star if the leader left, but then I read a thread like this and decided to give it a shot and lead myself.
Mainly I would lead mission PUG's, sometimes it would be a fairly random selection of whatever players had available, other times it would be a dedicated run through a contact's story arcs. My favourite time as leader would have to be the Giant Monster PUG team that downed Adamastor, Paladin, Lusca and more one fine Saturday. Took only about 5 minutes to form the team after sending out the broadcast (this surprised me given the nature of the task) and we were soon knee-deep in the broken bits of GM's.
As people have said it takes very little to 'lead' in this game, a few core principles, the ability to communicate well, to make hard decisions (i.e. kicking trouble-makers) and to fall back and make a new plan when the first doesn't succeed are all you need.
Yes, CoX has spoiled us something rotten with the ease of teaming. If somebody finds it hard to get a team, I'd say they're doing it wrong.
K5K - The Killbot 5000
A Spanner In The Works Part One, ArcID: 336662, A Spanner In The Works Part Two, ArcID: 336665, Enter Japes, ArcID: 96001
In The Darkness Creeping, ArcID: 347709, When Dimensions Collide, ArcID: 412416.
I wouldn't necessarily complain about it, but I might lament that it has changed from what it used to be. There was a time when the PUG invites - "blind" or preceded by /tell - practically rained from the heavens. For me, that was the golden age of teaming. In my experience, that flow of invites has slowed dramatically. I miss regularly getting those 'silver platter' invites.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
I wouldn't necessarily complain about it, but I might lament that it has changed from what it used to be. There was a time when the PUG invites - "blind" or preceded by /tell - practically rained from the heavens. For me, that was the golden age of teaming. In my experience, that flow of invites has slowed dramatically. I miss regularly getting those 'silver platter' invites. I also miss Crystal Pepsi and 7UP Gold. ::shrug::
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I remember having to put "no blind invites, please" in my search notes. That's rather redundant these days.
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Second I'd say that the drop in blind invites and tells is more the result of them
a. Learning that players ignore them.
b. Players actively use /hide to avoid them because in this game the majority of players consider that behavior rude.
c. Account restrictions prevent them from unlocking the full potential of their accounts.
So I regret to say the people ya'll are referring to are a completely different subset than the ones I'm talking about.
I remember having to put "no blind invites, please" in my search notes. That's rather redundant these days.
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On occasion, I forget to turn /hide back on. And when I do, I am reminded of it because I still get blind invites. (Despite a search comment that says no blind invites. That's right, I am both hidden and have that in my search comments.)
So, anecdotes are anecdotal and all, but I don't see what you're seeing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Just popping in to agree that we do have it good with the teaming options that are available to us in CoH.
Because you can choose to side-kick or exemplar you have more opportunities to play with your friends in whatever mood they are in (unless it's a mood to solo.)
The friends, global channels & channel lists also make it easy to keep in touch with like-minded players so you have a pool of of "vetted" people to play with.
And... you can play with PUGs if that's your choice too.
Oh and there's one more thing. I'd like to give a BIG thank you to those who do decide to take the lead & get things like iTrials or TF's going. While I might be disappointed if a trial doesn't go as hoped, I'm still very glad you got the trial going in the first place. I'm here to play & hang out with friends. I can't play in trials if someone doens't get it started & I find the tasks & responisibilities of leadership to be somewhat onerous. And so I very much appreciate that you are here doing that which I don't find to be much fun & allowing me to have the fun I'm looking for!
I remember having to put "no blind invites, please" in my search notes. That's rather redundant these days.
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Did absolutely no good.
Blind invites continued to pour in.
Started to stay in Hide mode at all times.
I still get blind invites at times because people see me in zones and incorrectly assume that I must need a team or league to function.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
First off, the people actively recruiting teammates via "blind invites" and tells are not the same people who are allergic to the "Star".
Second I'd say that the drop in blind invites and tells is more the result of them a. Learning that players ignore them. b. Players actively use /hide to avoid them because in this game the majority of players consider that behavior rude. c. Account restrictions prevent them from unlocking the full potential of their accounts. So I regret to say the people ya'll are referring to are a completely different subset than the ones I'm talking about. |
As for speculations specifically about the drop in "blind" invites, I'd say that the largest drop in frequency for those came when changes to difficulty settings made padding unnecessary.
And I'm speaking here as a 'lump' who passively accrues team invites and has on occasion quit a team when handed the star. There was a time when that didn't much limit the amount of teaming I did. There was a time that it wasn't necessary for me to join a cumbersome number of chat channels or maintain some sort of arduous social network in order to get on a team whenever I logged in. Now, given the nature of the beast it doesn't do much good to complain about these environmental changes, but I'd have as much right to complain about them as anyone would have about any changes that negatively impacted them.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Well we do have a portion of the player base that has such an aversion to the Star/Team Leader position that they literally have been seen standing in a circle at contacts/trainers for teams/tf's/trials spamming LFT for over an hour and then complaining that the server is dead and they can't find teams.
The only reason I mention this is because I'm expecting at least one of them to come in here and claim Bill is wrong. |
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Too much?
This is what came to mind when I first read the title here: When I was Your Age!
Oddly, on the rare occasions I do PUG, I'm the team leader more often than not. I say 'oddly' because I'm not in any way a social or outgoing person. I don't think I've ever typed 'lft' in this game, although I do occasionally join things when I see them forming, or more frequently, respond to somebody's request for help. But once in a while I want to get something done, like a TF, so I'll put out a call. So far I've been really lucky, on Virtue; most people have been pleasant and helpful, or at the very least, quiet.
I've definitely seen the behavior Forbin describes though, and pretty frequently. I do find leading, and sometimes even just grouping, draining, so I understand a reluctance to do it. And I really don't see anything wrong with somebody not wanting to be the leader. What I have a more diffcult time understanding, though, is why you'd then waste your time waiting around for somebody else to do it for you. If I weren't feeling up to leading the effort, I'd go do something else.
* Note that's a generic "you." Not directed at any particular poster in this thread.