Mechanically, Tanks are a whole different ball game. Tanks can operate in a strategic fashion that, because of Fury, Brutes really can't. Admittedly, there are fewer edge case scenarios now where Tank survivability is essential, but there's still something to be said for higher hit point and resistance caps. It's not like you want a mere Brute holding the Avatar of Hamidon's attention, right?
Things I hate: Anime. PvP. Lying MMO Developers. Outleveling content. Manga. ED. Comic Store Employees. Anime.
I have played a Tank since this game was in Beta and I can say with confidence that she's one of the strongest characters in this game today. A Tanker's enormous HP cap and primary on defensive powers allows for a great deal of flexibility in the end-game since benefits shift heavily towards producing greater volumes of damage across all archetypes as opposed to other forms of role diversity (which is not to say they don't exist, but in many scenarios they are usually not as beneficial). Because much of that added damage from Incarnate abilities (Lore pets and Interface) and IO procedures do not benefit from multipliers like a build's attack set would, the gains are static across archetypes.
Getting there may be harder than it would be for a Brute, but like PunkRolex said - there's much more flexibility to play tactically since your damage mechanics are not tied into momentum carried by Fury and you will be able to function at a very similar capacity to a Brute or Scrapper no matter the content. You might not kill things as quickly in many cases, but you'll be far less susceptible to injury in turn.
Also, the -20% Resist on your Tier 1 secondary is very effective, especially on teams, even though it doesn't stack.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Tanks and brutes have the same caps for everything except damage and hit points. It's their base values that are different. A brute can reach the same levels of survivability as a tank, but since they have lower base numbers, they have to work harder to acheive the same level.|
Originally Posted by PunkRolex
there's still something to be said for higher hit point and resistance caps.
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Yes, brutes, scrappers, and even stalkers can attain the same levels of defense, resist, and regen as tanks. However, tanks have higher hit points, which still makes them survive longer than the other ATs in the same situations. Also, with the higher base values, they need less pool powers and set bonuses to reach those levels of survivability, meaning that they've got more flexibility in their build for chasing other things, like +recharge or +damage.
Tanks and brutes have different, but similar goals. A tanker is meant to get and hold aggro throughout the battle, so that others remain safe. A brute is meant to get aggro to fuel their Fury, and then defeat their enemies, but holding aggro isn't nearly as important.
Both are meant to be strong enough to survive to the end of the battle. The difference is that the tank withstands anything thrown at him until the battle ends, whereas the brute takes a couple hits, and then ENDS the battle. Prolonging a fight that doesn't even phase a tanker may prove fatal to an identically slotted brute.
Yes, tanks still have their place. Their place is just a little less clearly defined now, just like it is for controllers and dominators, or defenders and corruptors.
@Roderick
A tank can hit the Incarnate soft-cap on virtually every set available to them.
Only Shield, SR, and Invuln can do the same on the brute side without gimping the rest of their build to do it.
A Shield, SR, or Invuln tank will hit the Incarnate soft-cap almost by accident.
The difference in base values makes more of a difference than a lot of people would have you believe.
Example: I have a Dark Armor tank build that hits 90% resistance to Smashing, Lethal, Negative Energy, and Psionic damage. A brute flat out cannot do the same unless it uses Barrier. The tank on the other hand, can choose any Destiny it wants because the resistance is already capped.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
While Brutes do have the same Resit Cap as tanks, I'm pretty sure that isn't true for Scrappers or Stalkers.
Not that that makes any difference. The point that a tank will have an easier time with survivability that the brute in some situtions based on his different numbers is still correct, regardless. It won't come up often, but it is still true.
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90% vs. 75% isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Madadh
While Brutes do have the same Resit Cap as tanks, I'm pretty sure that isn't true for Scrappers or Stalkers.
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Under construction
You mean "Tankers" not "Tanks"...as Tank is a role that can be filled by other ATs...because my Brute is definitely a Tank.
Sorry...I just hate that misconception.
For the most part, you answered your own question. As a Tanker you will definitely have less damage than a Brute. Sometimes your survivability will be "redundant" with good teams...but built right, you will always walk around with better survivability than your Brute counterpart.
I think it is really as simple as...do you want more damage...or more inherent survivability?
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Or another way to put it, do you just want to be one who does damage or one that the team looks too to lead them into the battle. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
I think it is really as simple as...do you want more damage...or more inherent survivability?
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Its great playing my brute, but with my shield tank I can taunt AVs that would have just defeat my brute with a couple of good hits. And if you like being team leader, a tank is a solid choice because then you know agg will be handle right.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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That line of thinking follows my aforementioned misconception.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
Or another way to put it, do you just want to be one who does damage or one that the team looks too to lead them into the battle.
Its great playing my brute, but with my shield tank I can taunt AVs that would have just defeat my brute with a couple of good hits. And if you like being team leader, a tank is a solid choice because then you know agg will be handle right. |
What you describe there is a playstyle...not an AT.
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It's not a misconception. It is a difference of preference in language use. Many use Tank as a short form for Tanker. The context of a conversation usually makes it quite clear if those involved are referring to the AT and/or the role.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
You mean "Tankers" not "Tanks"...as Tank is a role that can be filled by other ATs...because my Brute is definitely a Tank.
Sorry...I just hate that misconception. |
Your complaint falls in the category of pet peeve rather than error or misconception by those using a word in a manner you happen not to like.
I like Tankers because I often spend more than a year leveling a character to 50 - long enough to get serious mileage out of their enhanced defensive stats.
Once you hit 50, though, and IO things out there's not a huge benefit to playing a Tanker over a Brute who took Taunt. People talk about building momentum for Fury, etc, but if you're tanking you don't need to worry about that. One, because that's not what you're focusing on and two because it will happen regardless: Most fury comes from being attacked, not being the attacker.
On any team with any kind of support at all a Brute can indeed become a Tanker that does twice as much damage on average.
That said the differences are seriously not important in the modern game. They're both outclassed in the end. "Tank" is the least needed role in City of X - we're all tankmages here, every one of us, and the more the devs change to 'challenge' a team in the endgame (autohit, unresistable damage, flooring regen, etc) the more worthless the ATs who rely solely on those things to contribute become.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
I've only ever kept 1 tanker, and that's my Ice tanker. The only reason he's still around is because Ice isn't available for brutes. I am a brute addict because they can tank "good enough" for most of the game but at the same time have good damage.
On an unrelated note, every time I read this thread topic I instantly think "you're welcome".
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I think it really comes down to personal preference. I prefer tankers or scrappers to brutes myself, but I can see the appeal of brutes.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
The only AT i haven't taken to 50 is Tanks. I'm wondering now in the world of IOs, everyone being softcap, incarnate powers flying left right and center. Is it worth leveling and IOing out a tank? Or am I just going to end up with less damage brute with somewhat redundant survivability?
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As a Fire blaster, I prefer playing with tankers. I have played with a few brutes that can do nearly as well as a tanker, but most can't save me from myself as well. Also, brutes seem to die more than tankers when I play with them.
I tend to think of brutes as damage dealers that also happen to be pretty dang tough. I tend to think of tankers as tanks that also deal modest damage.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
1. "Everyone" isn't softcapped, regardless of what it might sound like on the forums,
2. Incarnate powers are only an issue in the end game. There's more to the game than iTrials.
3. Don't worry about what everyone else does. If you want to play a tank, even "just" to get one of everything to 50, do it. Find a set that sounds fun and run it.
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Yes. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits|
Originally Posted by Erratic
90% vs. 75% isn't it?
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With Khelds, Arachnos Widows and Soldiers capping at 85%
Doomguide
The question about survivability vs damage on tanks, brutes and scrappers has always been one that bugged me. I avoided tanks for ages, mostly because I have a minimum solo killing speed requirement that I need in a toon before I can stick with them and usually tanks did not meet that. This isn't something I can give numbers for - its more of a feel thing and tanks just fall short (I won't touch defenders, even after their last damage boost, I don't have the patience for controllers any more now that I have my plant troller at 50 and I even get impatient with corruptors).
But a while ago I wanted to see if there really was a noticable difference in survivability when you where playing a tank. It was just after I got my first shield scrapper to 50, a fire/shield. After getting her def soft capped and reasonably IO'ed out (I don't bother with purples, not worth the expense, but I do like to get 50%-75% global recharge if I can) I decided to do try to level up a shield tanker under the theory that once both characters hit the softcap the only thing that would stand out is the higher base resistance values (which didn't seem all THAT much higher) and hit points, so I could get a good feeling for the pure base difference between the to AT's.
So I leveled up Andromache, a Shield/SS tank to 50, got her to just the def softcap and then devoted extra slots to HPT and deflection so I could boost her resistances. I then picked up all the +hp accolades I could and slotted for +hp/+regen bonuses. The difference was amazing - mission settings of +1/x8 or +2/x8 that would have my fire/shield sucking down greens to stay alive (2-3 in every battle, if not more) my tank would wade through without needing any inspirations - she barely took any damage and what she did take barely dented her green bar. In fact, pretty much the only insps she needs are yellows for those pesky master illusionists and all the -to hit they stack up (seriously - even with rage they would drop my base to hit to 50% or less) and blues just in case I get a badly timed rage crash.
When incarnate slots came out she just got better - I picked up a tier4 cardiac alpha which gave her a huge boost in resistance to the point where she can hardcap S/L resists when OWTS is up and gets around 60%-70% S/L resist with a double stack of the tanker ATO proc, which isn't hard to keep up.
Now there is still the trade off - shield/ss is about as damage heavy a tank as you are going to get (with fire/ss probably beating it) and the kill speed is still a little slower than I prefer, but its acceptable. An SS/Shield brute would be closer in damage to a scrapper but since brutes start out at the same resistance numbers as the scrapper and only slightly more HP I suspect my tank is still going to be a lot more survivable unless the brute has a lot of extra, outside buffs.
So you DO get something out of a tank that brutes and scrappers can't offer, at least solo and even in a group unless you have some serious extra resistance/hp buffs for the brute. In the end, as many folks have mentioned, it really does boil down to playstyle preference. If you want to play a character that can be very easily build to survive and don't mind the cut in damage, a tank is going to be your choice. If you want to live on the edge and be primarly a damage dealer, play a scrapper, if you want to balance the two with the caveat that you really need outside buffs to reach tank levels of survivability, play a brute.
Despite the fact that Andromache is the closest I have to a main character, was my primary hamidon raider back in the days when protector was still doing weekly hami raids and is a blast to play when I do pull her out, my choice is still on the brute/scrapper side. I tend towards brute currently - but that is only because between taunt and taunt auras I can keep ahead of the moronic 'run way run away' AI that drives me crazy on scrappers - otherwise I would probably play 50/50 scrappers brutes. Other folks are going to have to make their own call.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Pretty much this. I just took a Force Field defender to 50, villainside. There's plenty of room in the world for extra survivability.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
1. "Everyone" isn't softcapped, regardless of what it might sound like on the forums,
2. Incarnate powers are only an issue in the end game. There's more to the game than iTrials. 3. Don't worry about what everyone else does. If you want to play a tank, even "just" to get one of everything to 50, do it. Find a set that sounds fun and run it. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Go the FA/SS/Soul Route. Hit the damage cap, then surpass it with Fiery Embrace! IO for Defense, go go go! 
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I rolled a Dark/EM tank just for fun. The damage is horrid and I've yet to see any survivability increase, but I'm only lv 11. I think this is going to end up like what I thought it was, basically I'll give up alot of damage for a overkill amount of survivability. I'm going have to see what happens with I get incarnates.
Edit : I would have rolled fire armor except I already have a SS/fire broot and like 5 different shield toons
You're welcome.
I really should do something about this signature.
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A tank powerset combo that I decided to try out to see if it satisfied my damage preferences is a */DM tank. Dark melee will give you a nice single target attack chain, an extra heal and soul drain. While SD is not going to be as impressive on a tank as it is on a scrapper, fully saturated it should still give you a nice damage boost - possibly as good as rage without the crash (if I am reading the numbers correctly it looks like 48% damage boost with one target and a cap of 120% with 10 targets). |
Originally Posted by Dz131
I rolled a Dark/EM tank just for fun. The damage is horrid and I've yet to see any survivability increase, but I'm only lv 11. I think this is going to end up like what I thought it was, basically I'll give up alot of damage for a overkill amount of survivability. I'm going have to see what happens with I get incarnates.
Edit : I would have rolled fire armor except I already have a SS/fire broot and like 5 different shield toons |
I am currently trying out an ElA/DM tank, mostly because the resists in ElA on a tank are insane but if you really want to push for damage go FA/DM, not only will you be able to stack fiery embrace with soul drain but you can fill in for DM's lack of AoE with burn + blazing aura.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I have a DA/FM Tank...Dark armor on a tank is pretty salty man...With Fire melee I really didn't see damage anywhere around what I was looking for until I got most of my big ST hitters slotted well enough...still not done with getting the build together on live...
But, here it is so you can see...btw...I have the 4 accolades selected and tier 4 alpha please turn those on.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.955
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Soulfire Darkness: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Dark Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Death Shroud -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(3), Erad-Dmg:30(5), FotG-Dam/End/Rech:50(25), FotG-Acc/End/Rech:50(25), FotG-ResDeb%:50(45)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(9)
Level 2: Dark Embrace -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(13), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(13)
Level 4: Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(19)
Level 6: Super Jump -- Zephyr-ResKB:50(A), Zephyr-Travel:50(7)
Level 8: Murky Cloud -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(11), RctvArm-ResDam:40(27), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(27), S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(29)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), GA-3defTpProc:50(15), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(31), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(31)
Level 12: Taunt -- Zinger-Dam%:50(A)
Level 14: Dark Regeneration -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg:30(15), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(36), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen:50(36), Theft-+End%:30(37)
Level 16: Breath of Fire -- Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(39)
Level 18: Cloak of Darkness -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(19), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(23), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(29)
Level 20: Build Up -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn:20(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit:20(21)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(34)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(33), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(33), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(33)
Level 28: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 30: Oppressive Gloom -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 32: Soul Transfer -- Erad-Acc/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(46)
Level 35: Fire Sword Circle -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(40), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Armgdn-Dam%:50(43)
Level 38: Incinerate -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40), Hectmb-Dam%:50(40), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(42), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(46)
Level 41: Greater Fire Sword -- SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SMotTanker-Rchg/Res%:50(42), SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), SMotTanker-Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SMotTanker-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46)
Level 44: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(45)
Level 47: Gloom -- Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), Apoc-Dam%:50(48), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(50)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(50), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(50)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(21)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(11), EndMod-I:50(23)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Cimeroran Core Superior Ally
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Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
How do you get 90% on everything on DA? I'm looking at mids and I don't get close.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A tank can hit the Incarnate soft-cap on virtually every set available to them.
Only Shield, SR, and Invuln can do the same on the brute side without gimping the rest of their build to do it. A Shield, SR, or Invuln tank will hit the Incarnate soft-cap almost by accident. The difference in base values makes more of a difference than a lot of people would have you believe. Example: I have a Dark Armor tank build that hits 90% resistance to Smashing, Lethal, Negative Energy, and Psionic damage. A brute flat out cannot do the same unless it uses Barrier. The tank on the other hand, can choose any Destiny it wants because the resistance is already capped. |
Quote:
EM is a late bloomer and after a variety of nerfs over the years lost much of it's payoff, dark is a very hardy protection set it's not adding to your damage like fire can so if I might make a suggestion go Fire/MA more Res and much more Def than your SS/Fire brute
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Originally Posted by Dz131
I rolled a Dark/EM tank just for fun. The damage is horrid and I've yet to see any survivability increase, but I'm only lv 11. I think this is going to end up like what I thought it was, basically I'll give up alot of damage for a overkill amount of survivability. I'm going have to see what happens with I get incarnates.
Edit : I would have rolled fire armor except I already have a SS/fire broot and like 5 different shield toons |
The only AT i haven't taken to 50 is Tanks. I'm wondering now in the world of IOs, everyone being softcap, incarnate powers flying left right and center. Is it worth leveling and IOing out a tank? Or am I just going to end up with less damage brute with somewhat redundant survivability?