Tanks


-Urchin-

 

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Originally Posted by -Urchin- View Post
It's not a misconception. It is a difference of preference in language use. Many use Tank as a short form for Tanker. The context of a conversation usually makes it quite clear if those involved are referring to the AT and/or the role.

Your complaint falls in the category of pet peeve rather than error or misconception by those using a word in a manner you happen not to like.
The misconception was that you think Tankers should be the ones that take the lead in teams and make sure they have the aggro. That is what a tank does, the tanker AT doesn't perform that role by default.

Personally I can't think of any situations where I would prefer a tank over a brute, because on a team the buffs will give more benefit to the brute, and most of the time what kills the tank is mass debuff, which tends to be so big it floors you no matter how many HP you rack up.


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Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
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Posted

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Originally Posted by -Urchin- View Post
It's not a misconception. It is a difference of preference in language use. Many use Tank as a short form for Tanker. The context of a conversation usually makes it quite clear if those involved are referring to the AT and/or the role.

Your complaint falls in the category of pet peeve rather than error or misconception by those using a word in a manner you happen not to like.
My point is that...when it is used in this context...people then get the misconception of this...

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Originally Posted by Pinkpup View Post
Or another way to put it, do you just want to be one who does damage or one that the team looks too to lead them into the battle.

Its great playing my brute, but with my shield tank I can taunt AVs that would have just defeat my brute with a couple of good hits. And if you like being team leader, a tank is a solid choice because then you know agg will be handle right.


 

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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar View Post
Personally I can't think of any situations where I would prefer a tank over a brute, because on a team the buffs will give more benefit to the brute, and most of the time what kills the tank is mass debuff, which tends to be so big it floors you no matter how many HP you rack up.
It is actually incorrect to assume team buffs give more to a brute than a tanker. Because tankers have a higher damage modifier, +dam buffs are actually more potent on a tanker until the cap is reached. Contrary to popular misconception, that is not a hugely frequent occurrence.

Since tankers have more HPs, extra mitigation can favor them as well, since the mitigation is magnified by the higher HPs. I concede that tankers will reach caps quicker since they start off higher, so in that sense, brutes can get more out of team buffs, but only because they need more.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
It is actually incorrect to assume team buffs give more to a brute than a tanker. Because tankers have a higher damage modifier, +dam buffs are actually more potent on a tanker until the cap is reached. Contrary to popular misconception, that is not a hugely frequent occurrence.

Since tankers have more HPs, extra mitigation can favor them as well, since the mitigation is magnified by the higher HPs. I concede that tankers will reach caps quicker since they start off higher, so in that sense, brutes can get more out of team buffs, but only because they need more.
It is mainly because survivability buffs are generally massive, easily allowing a brute to reach a tanks level of survivability, but damage buffs aren't so big and prevent a tank from getting anywhere close to a brute (Even if somehow the brute managed to miss the buff).

Brutes high caps on top of that compound the problem, but that is never going to change because too many people enjoy brutes and since IO's (Maybe since aggro caps even) there hasn't really been an absolute need for a tank in CoX so fixing them isn't a priority.


Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

 

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Originally Posted by Dz131 View Post
How do you get 90% on everything on DA? I'm looking at mids and I don't get close.

It's not everything. It's just the 4 types I mentioned in my post.

I used the Tanker ATO proc in my damage aura, and have Cardiac Alpha planned. S/L are sitting at 90% and Psionic would be well beyond it if it were possible.

Mids' can't show you double stacking the proc, but that's how I'm getting 90% to Negative Energy.

You'll never cap Energy resistance, and near as I can figure Fire/Cold caps out at about 75% or so for a DA tank.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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I'm realizing now rolling EM was a huge mistake


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
It's not everything. It's just the 4 types I mentioned in my post.

I used the Tanker ATO proc in my damage aura, and have Cardiac Alpha planned. S/L are sitting at 90% and Psionic would be well beyond it if it were possible.

Mids' can't show you double stacking the proc, but that's how I'm getting 90% to Negative Energy.

You'll never cap Energy resistance, and near as I can figure Fire/Cold caps out at about 75% or so for a DA tank.
also how do you slot the ATO in the dmg aura? I can't do it in mids


 

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Originally Posted by Dz131 View Post
I'm realizing now rolling EM was a huge mistake
I'm very sorry. Some combo's are just...a little more...challenging.

If you want a good, fun, simple tank that's very durable but also fun, may I suggest:


elec/staff. TONS of AOE damage, and Staff's self-buffage is second to none. The more you attack, the tougher you get.

shield/martial arts. Much more single-target focused, but the defense and damage buffs from martial arts synergize superbly with shields powers.

fire/fire. Godlike at game launch. Godlike now. The damage of this combo is...good.


However, let's ask this: What kinds of toons do you like to play?


 

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Shield/MA is an extremely good combo. You will be a little limited with your aoe, but load up on leviathan and that's taken care of really well. 3 cones/tpboom/if anything is left dragons tail/clean up any bosses left over.

I see lots of people talking about brutes damage being so much better than tanks. It's true enough, but the damage you can do with a well slotted tank is good enough for a vast majority of the game.
Even such a char as a Shield/Ice can pile up a lot of damage if you want to make him a damage dealer. It would involve taking Leviathan and planing for damage, but you can apply 1500+ damage to a group with plenty in the gas in your tank to keep on going.

The builds are what you make of them.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dz131 View Post
I'm realizing now rolling EM was a huge mistake
I've been there, I love the look of EM but it is just a huge let down


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Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
elec/staff. TONS of AOE damage, and Staff's self-buffage is second to none. The more you attack, the tougher you get.

shield/martial arts. Much more single-target focused, but the defense and damage buffs from martial arts synergize superbly with shields powers.

fire/fire. Godlike at game launch. Godlike now. The damage of this combo is...good.
Tooting my own horn: Elec/TW. Its slow to start, but once you pick up Rend Armor and Whirling Smash - look out. And Elec is very recharge and endurance friendly.


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Originally Posted by EricHough View Post
I am currently trying out an ElA/DM tank, mostly because the resists in ElA on a tank are insane but if you really want to push for damage go FA/DM, not only will you be able to stack fiery embrace with soul drain but you can fill in for DM's lack of AoE with burn + blazing aura.
I levelled a DM/ElA Brute to 50 last month and would be very interested in hearing about how things work out for you as my Brute is one of the few characters I've had that feels like I've engaged cheat mode. I would have to imagine with higher resistances and in combination with the healing to be found (Siphon Life and Energize) that you're just about unstoppable.


Under construction

 

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Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
shield/martial arts. Much more single-target focused, but the defense and damage buffs from martial arts synergize superbly with shields powers.

However, let's ask this: What kinds of toons do you like to play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadey_NA View Post
Shield/MA is an extremely good combo. You will be a little limited with your aoe, but load up on leviathan and that's taken care of really well. 3 cones/tpboom/if anything is left dragons tail/clean up any bosses left over.
I can't agree with this, sure between storm kick and the ATO +res you'll be very sturdy early on but with proper slotting you won't need or get much of any value out of storm kick's +def later on and there are much more damaging secondarys to choose from

-It takes too long to get AOEs in place.

Your first solid aoe attack doesn't come until lvl 26 and it's base recharge is 90s the next one isn't available until 30-32? Fire/Ma, Shield/StJ are a lot more satisfacory imo


 

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Originally Posted by Cheetatron View Post
I can't agree with this, sure between storm kick and the ATO +res you'll be very sturdy early on but with proper slotting you won't need or get much of any value out of storm kick's +def later on and there are much more damaging secondarys to choose from

-It takes too long to get AOEs in place.

Your first solid aoe attack doesn't come until lvl 26 and it's base recharge is 90s the next one isn't available until 30-32? Fire/Ma, Shield/StJ are a lot more satisfacory imo
I see where you are coming from. MA has only 1 aoe power and would have to rely on something like Leviathan or Mu to get some more aoe into the build, but it's still a very nice set. Dragons tail is only some radius away from being as good as Foot Stomp. If you herd em a bit, it's just as effective.

IMO, that's the biggest reason people end up having issues with tanks. Since their offense is their secondary, it take a significant amount of time before they get enough of their set together and slotted to feel happy with it.

Most people (including me) deal with their defenses early as tanks and slotting for offense comes later. I've easily gone into my mid teen levels with only two offensive picks. This kind of approach leaves the player with a misconception that their offense really bites and some never get over it. "Too long" is a pretty relative term in a game where you can spend months getting a char fully IO'd and Incarnated.

And the Def from Storm Kick is still pretty handy late game as you get into Incarnate (newer) areas. It and Shield Charge allow you to slot a bit more for offense and still keep yourself protected against all the mobs with higher acc. It will also help with one of Shields bigger problems, lack of high amounts of -Def resistance.


 

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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon View Post
Tooting my own horn: Elec/TW. Its slow to start, but once you pick up Rend Armor and Whirling Smash - look out. And Elec is very recharge and endurance friendly.
Spyral, I've been thinking about a TW tank myself. Does Defensive Sweep give the standart tier 1 -res even though it's an aoe? On paper it seems like an incredible choice for a tank, small damage + defense + -res all in a aoe?


 

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Originally Posted by Shadey_NA View Post
Spyral, I've been thinking about a TW tank myself. Does Defensive Sweep give the standart tier 1 -res even though it's an aoe? On paper it seems like an incredible choice for a tank, small damage + defense + -res all in a aoe?
Pretty sure I asked this question shortly after TW was released on live...and IIRC...the response was that it only applies the -res to targeted mob.


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Originally Posted by Cheetatron View Post
I can't agree with this, sure between storm kick and the ATO +res you'll be very sturdy early on but with proper slotting you won't need or get much of any value out of storm kick's +def later on and there are much more damaging secondarys to choose from

-It takes too long to get AOEs in place.

Your first solid aoe attack doesn't come until lvl 26 and it's base recharge is 90s the next one isn't available until 30-32? Fire/Ma, Shield/StJ are a lot more satisfacory imo
Tanks are not about damage.

Tanks are about tanking, which is not the same as durability.

Also, SD/MA has three primary points of synergy.

1) Storm kick is a massive def to all buff. Def to ALL. Since shield is positionals, that covers everything except non-positional attacks. How many of those are there in the game? The buff is very applicable into the incarnate levels, as well. Its real value is not the size of the buff, its in the fact that it has NO HOLES.

2) Mitigation is all knockdown. Dragontail and shield charge synergize beautifully. Many/most of the iFactions to date are susceptible to knock. Knockdown works like a charm against them. (That's counterbalanced by outlevelling things to make them suffer kb, but just turn it up a notch to compensate.)

3) Eagle Claw grants a nice +damage buff, which stacks beautifully with AAO. Eagle Claw/Shield Charge/Dragon Tail in a big crowd is pretty.


In addition, SD on a tank has the second best aggro-holding aura in the game (an icer beats you, barely), and OWTS makes you an Invuln tanker for two minutes at a time.

SD/MA is a very, VERY good combo. YMMV


 

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Originally Posted by Dz131 View Post
also how do you slot the ATO in the dmg aura? I can't do it in mids

I assure you, it DOES work in a damage aura. My DA/STaff tank is level 30 and has had 3 pieces of the ATO set in Death Shroud since level 7. That is my live, in-game character.

Mids' is wonky and doesn't let you do things sometimes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Until and unless the Tank AT's aggro capabilities are strong enough to counter the damage output of blasters and the squishies that need them (trollers, Corr's, Dom's...anyone with holds doesn't really need a Tanks protection), there is little reason to level a Tank. A brute or scrapper brings more to the team damage wise and damage trumps a non-effective Taunt and aggro-holding capabilities, which are meant to be the hallmark of the Tank AT. If they can't perform that role (not their fault....its a programming mechanic) then there is little reason to play a Tank other than just for the higher numbers. And having leveled dozens of brutes since that AT's introduction....survivability for a Brute is already fantastic. Needing "more" of that just begs the question of whether or not the user is familiar with IO's.

The job of a Tank is far more than just surviving...its supposed to be a meatshield to help the squishies survive. I peel aggro off of current Tanks (fully IO'd out Tanks no less) faster than anything.


 

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Originally Posted by CyberGlitch View Post
The job of a Tank is far more than just surviving...its supposed to be a meatshield to help the squishies survive. I peel aggro off of current Tanks (fully IO'd out Tanks no less) faster than anything.
Operator error and it doesn't seem terribly common (of course I often play with very good players, but even in PUGs most tankers do OK at holding most aggro).

The taunt mechanic provides a very powerful multiplier for threat generation and no AT uses that mechanic better than the tanker. If you haven't played a tanker, I recommend doing so, at least from level 20 to 35 and preferably on mid to large teams. (although from you reg date, I find it hard to believe you never played one, most people around that long have at least dabbled with tons of alts, though not all)


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Operator error and it doesn't seem terribly common (of course I often play with very good players, but even in PUGs most tankers do OK at holding most aggro).
Actually, I'd say its the other way around. I've played a lot of tanks although since the intro of Brutes, only leveled a few more. I find it an archaic AT that really has little value any longer in the game.

I think its a matter of whether or not you are playing with other players that really know how to use their powers effectively. Teaming with a group of Fire blasters that are equally fully IO'd out and high recharge...which is the norm for good players anymore....and you'll see what I mean.


 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
1. "Everyone" isn't softcapped, regardless of what it might sound like on the forums,
2. Incarnate powers are only an issue in the end game. There's more to the game than iTrials.
3. Don't worry about what everyone else does. If you want to play a tank, even "just" to get one of everything to 50, do it. Find a set that sounds fun and run it.
Best answer..


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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Originally Posted by CyberGlitch View Post
Until and unless the Tank AT's aggro capabilities are strong enough to counter the damage output of blasters and the squishies that need them (trollers, Corr's, Dom's...anyone with holds doesn't really need a Tanks protection), there is little reason to level a Tank. A brute or scrapper brings more to the team damage wise and damage trumps a non-effective Taunt and aggro-holding capabilities, which are meant to be the hallmark of the Tank AT. If they can't perform that role (not their fault....its a programming mechanic) then there is little reason to play a Tank other than just for the higher numbers. And having leveled dozens of brutes since that AT's introduction....survivability for a Brute is already fantastic. Needing "more" of that just begs the question of whether or not the user is familiar with IO's.

The job of a Tank is far more than just surviving...its supposed to be a meatshield to help the squishies survive. I peel aggro off of current Tanks (fully IO'd out Tanks no less) faster than anything.
Fully IO's a tank has little to do with a tanks ability to manage aggro..

I would like to address a a couple of things..

First off a Tank has three tools to manage aggro.. Gauntlet, Aggro or Damage Aura and Taunt... Taunt only works on five foes and a tank can only manage the aggro of about two spawns of 8. You can aggro as many as you want.. but the tank can only control the aggro of about 16-17 foes.. any more than that then its on you to manage the aggro you create..

Most teams I have been on dont even allow the tank to establish aggro control.. the second the tank contacts a mob there is a fireball flying up his backside...

A person has to understand how to manage their tanker and the aggro.. It is helpful to know how to manage your tanks abilities.

And there is plenty of reason to level a tank.. Because Tanks are fun.. I have plenty of brutes.. I find scrappers useless myself.. I love the tanks ability to wade through things thrown at it, help his teamates, and also contribute nice damage...

I say try one.. teams are not THAT picky where they are trying to get the perfect balance... most people just want a competent and fun person to play with..


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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Originally Posted by CyberGlitch View Post
I think its a matter of whether or not you are playing with other players that really know how to use their powers effectively. Teaming with a group of Fire blasters that are equally fully IO'd out and high recharge...which is the norm for good players anymore....and you'll see what I mean.
Teams of fire blasters and fire controllers (yay AoE immobs) do not steal much aggro from my Willpower tanker who has the crappy aura. I leveled that character up with a crazy fire blaster, a crazy Kin fender, and often had a melee Ice/Fire blaster who was level 50 and EXing join us.

A tanker who loses much aggro to anything but another character with the taunt mechanic is doing it wrong.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Consolidating mobs with Tankers isn't a case of Tankers simply being in the line of perception so an early open of a massive aoe immob is only going to make the Tankers job harder and also some aoe debuffs do not get their maximum targeting potential. Generally to beat the early pullers mobs should be left early before all is dead if possible to quickly set up the next tight group for damage and debuff aoes.

Fireballs as Tankers almost get there do not always help, you draw mobs forward. It's not bad in terms of aggro management if the Tanker has the front mobs on taunt, and runs through into the bulk of them and unleashes a goodsized gauntlet aoe in time but mobs maybe still spread enough so that aoe debuffs do not get their maximum target potential.

I do not understand some Tank Brute team work. Why is the Brute doing all the herding and no damage whilst the Tank is doing the fighting? At most the Brute can take the alpha when needed for a buff to fury and then do all the damage and let the tank do the herding no? I know why the Tank is resorting to fighting, it's because someone has to keep the mobs in a debuff zone. Usually more than 3 pulls a mish is generally excessive and beyond ideal in a pug looking at potential ambush zones. Congalining is good where possible flow reasonable because when a Tanker is aggro capped it's generally not a good idea for a brute to come running in with a 10th of a health bar left with another 17 for the Tanker to deal with. Often the Brute gets stripped off aggro and the rest of the team have to deal with them whilst the Tank still has his 17.

Some Brutes think they can replace all Tankers, until they die ofc. Then it never happened. Tankers are best when other types of support are minimalist in general. Brutes might feel great about themselves despite the two doms, 4 corrupters and 1 MM in team (remembers the earliest LRSFs) . Sometimes a Brute will be best suited versus a certain enemy group as point than the Tank, depends on shields. It's no good bragging about being better than someones Tank after that one time at bandcamp.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.