Summer Event Preview Live!!1
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-05-14 24:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Enemies vary but the ones that I recall the most are Family, Warriors, Lost and Rikti. There are probably more that I'm not thinking about right now. I also like to keep Nemesis War Hulks and Jaeger's at a distance due to the damage when they are defeated. I don't worry as much about most minions since I'd killing them in one or two shots as it is unless I get a bad pull. Most of the ones I prefer keeping farther away from me are Lts and Bosses. And it goes without saying that EB's and AV's fall into that same category.
Snipers aren't a problem as I can generally stay out of their range and at times I need a bit of knock back to push them just a bit further back to get out of their range.
I mostly play blasters but the same is true on my defenders and controllers. I want to keep things out of melee range. Knock back helps accomplish that much better than simple knock down.
EDIT: Looking at your previous edit I'll do a bit of editing myself.
Texas Justice - Fire/Devices/Munitions blaster. Fireball and Inferno are the only AOE attacks from my primary. No Rain of Fire, no Firebreath. I'm all about aggro management. Inferno is seldom used anymore except during Ship Raids or Invasions. When I did use it before, it was as an opener or when the tank and controller had aggro locked down. Inferno killed most anything standing at that point. I wasn't stupid enough to use it on mobs surrounding Bosses unless the Boss was near a corner or wall so that I could use the Knock back to keep them there while killing the minions.
Texas Longbow - Archery/Devices/Munitions blaster. Rain of Arrows and Fistful of Arrows are basic parts of my attack chain. RoA as an opener and Fistful as a basic part of the attack chain. If it hits more than the primary target that's just gravy. Explosive shot is fun and I love the Knock back in it.
Doc Texas - Radiation/Dark Defender. I don't count on hitting anything other than the targetted foe with Tenebrous Tentacles or Nightfall. Any others they hit are gravy. Blackstar is extremely situational, mostly used as I use Inferno on TJ now during Invasions.
Texas Recurve - Trick Arrow/Archery Defender. Basically the same tactics as I use on Texas Longbow. If I'm using an AOE or cone from TA it's usually part of my opening attacks before hitting any KB. If it's mid-fight I'm not counting on hitting anything but the target.
Texas Freedom - Beam Rifle/Devices/Munitions. Pretty much played like all of my blasters. Emphasis on aggro management rather than AOE damage. I still get quite a bit of Disintegration Spread. I haven't noticed knock back having much of an effect on my Disintegration Spreads.
Texas Two Gun - Dual Pistols/Energy Manipulation. Mostly aggro management with a couple of secondary powers with KB in them to keep foes out of melee range.
Eyes of Texas - Illusion/Empathy/Psionic Mastery. Very few Empathy powers taken. Mostly built for PA dropping for the old Hami Raids. Still fun to play. Very few of my attacks are negatively affected by KB. I drop ST in a corner or near a wall and knock foes back into it. Very effective advantage to using KB.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
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One more thing. Like I have been for years, I am prepared to be proven wrong. No one ever takes me up on it. I've never stated that KB can't be useful. It can. But it's not as useful as KD on balance. That's my contention. Sure someone can construct a scenario where KB is useful. Hell, I can come up with better ones than you all can. But that's not even close to the point.
Knockback has clear disadvantages. Most of them stem from the fact that the game creates great incentives to keep critters in tightly packed clusters. Arcanaville knows this. I really can't believe she truly thinks that KB advantages outweigh or even equal its disadvantages. But if she does, please explain to me how this is possible, because I genuinely don't see it.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Ah ok. Yeah I don't see that happening. It would be bad, Bad, SO BAD if the Devs changed all the powers to KD. It would cause some people to quit and many others to take a break from COH for a while like I did when AE hit.|
Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
The inevitable change of knockback to knockin and how it's a horrible choice that will split the community and shatter this game.
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Now having the choice of making all of your KB powers KD instead I can see but this leaves you at the mercy of other players. Many who would rather you not use your Kb powers at all...but this brings up several things to think about.
1. A Jerk is a Jerk. People will kick you without warning for SO many reasons your AT, Level, Play-style, If you're new to the game or to this mission, Your build, KB ect. If you try to discuss things with the leader and he continues to be a jerk move on.
2. A Decent Majority of the people who take their KB powers actually know what they are doing so they're not going to get kicked in the first place. On most occasions if the leader has an issue with an overzealous KBer on the team or whatnot he will bring it up or someone on the team will.
I repeat, the Devs will not change all KB powers to KD I think we all know that but it is healthy to discuss the worse case scenario even if it's unrealistic that the Devs would take that action.
I've heard Rumors that Synapse and Arbiter Hawk are going to Nerf Regen First though.
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Awww but slippery slope arguments are fun |
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Ah ok. Yeah I don't see that happening. It would be bad, Bad, SO BAD if the Devs changed all the powers to KD. It would cause some people to quit and many others to take a break from COH for a while like I did when AE hit.
Now having the choice of making all of your KB powers KD instead I can see but this leaves you at the mercy of other players. Many who would rather you not use your Kb powers at all...but this brings up several things to think about. 1. A Jerk is a Jerk. People will kick you without warning for SO many reasons your AT, Level, Play-style, If you're new to the game or to this mission, Your build, KB ect. If you try to discuss things with the leader and he continues to be a jerk move on. 2. A Decent Majority of the people who take their KB powers actually know what they are doing so they're not going to get kicked in the first place. On most occasions if the leader has an issue with an overzealous KBer on the team or whatnot he will bring it up or someone on the team will. I repeat, the Devs will not change all KB powers to KD I think we all know that but it is healthy to discuss the worse case scenario even if it's unrealistic that the Devs would take that action. I've heard Rumors that Synapse and Arbiter Hawk are going to Nerf Regen First though. |
If people use logic surrounding this ONE IO.... then how can they scream DOOM!?!?!?!?
So.. how about that summer event...glances up at thread topic....
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Question to no one in particular:
If Knockback is so great, then why does it need to be defended? Why isn't this readily apparent?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Actually that's not true.|
Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
there is only one IO made that was too powerful for the powers it was slotted in. Instead of fixing the IO, the devs removed the entire IO type from being slotted into the powers that use it a specific way.
Key game show music.... That IO was Triumphant Insult : Chance to Disorient. That one IO changed changed taunt auras to no longer accept IO sets. It is by far the most powerful IO ever made. |
Remember there was a proc IO (think it was lady Grey) that could 1 shot even Hamidon due to a misplaced decimal point it was doing so much damage the combat log produced it as a mathmatical equation.
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You know what, we've done this thread before. Where was your rigorous mathematical justification for your position then? I seem to have forgotten it.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Question to no one in particular:
If Knockback is so great, then why does it need to be defended? Why isn't this readily apparent? |
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If being alive is so great, why are there so many dead people?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Question to no one in particular:
If Knockback is so great, then why does it need to be defended? Why isn't this readily apparent? |
(Equally pointless and irrelevant question.)
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You have travel powers.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What foe(s)? And what character are you playing?
Math is needed for that situation however. If you knock the foe away from your heavy hitting melee attacks, what have you really bought. For example. Energy/Energy Blaster. You knock a foe away, they are no longer in range of Energy Punch, Bone Smasher and Total Focus. Bone Smasher and Total Focus do more damage than any of the blasts except the Sniper (and knock doesn't buy you enough time to use that). Energy Punch activates faster than ANY blast attack and Bone Smasher is faster than the T2 and T4 blasts. And by moving them away from you, you're giving up the chance for the VASTLY more powerful stun secondary effect. So I'm not ready to acknowledge that you're better off in the situation you posit. |
You KB them away, hop over and while they are in the 1-2 second "getting up" animation you finish them. Same thing in Keyes, just propel them away from terminals and you don't even need to kill them. Same thing in Underground...knock away the mobs from the Crystals and you just clear them with impunity.
Not to mention you can just use map geometry to almost cheat through KB. Flip a mob against a mob and it is rendered ineffective until you finish it. Overkill against minions but useful against Bosses and even Elite Bosses that may not have KB protect.
KB is fine and useful. I'll echo my friend that would like a +KB Interface proc...you're never, ever getting up.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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KB CAN be great in the hands of those who choose and know how to use it correctly. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Question to no one in particular:
If Knockback is so great, then why does it need to be defended? Why isn't this readily apparent? |
This IO does not invalidate KB contrary to the slipper slopes that a few have claimed...what it does is allow players the CHOICE to change ONE power... that's it.. JUST ONE.
I love the hypocrisy of those who exclaim to let people play the way they want to play...and yet wish this IO was not released...it is after all a CHOICE of how to play that does not affect you....contrary to the ALLEGED arguments to the contrary.
If people refuse to team with you because of KB that is THEIR choice....
If people refuse to team with you because you have ONE IO... that is their choice.
Freedom is about choice....and I for one think this IO personifies this game and it's ability to adapt and give the numerous customers who have asked for such a thing...that freedom of choice.
tldr;
shut up and let people play the way they choose
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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So you have no answer then?
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
If being alive is so great, why are there so many dead people?
(Equally pointless and irrelevant question.) |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Never said it wasn't. Just said it's not as useful as KD. Still not heard anyone tackle that.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
KB is fine and useful.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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It isn't as useful as KD. It's a situational power that can be absolutely broken in some situations and an irritant in others. Players need to have choices though, so let's leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Never said it wasn't. Just said it's not as useful as KD. Still not heard anyone tackle that.
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Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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It's simple. KD is more useful than KB because:|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
You know what, we've done this thread before. Where was your rigorous mathematical justification for your position then? I seem to have forgotten it.
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KD keeps critters close.
Keeping critters close leaves them in range of AoEs/Auras/patches/buffs.
AoEs/Auras/patches/buffs help make critters die faster.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Ha! Point Made lol.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Awww but slippery slope arguments are fun
If people use logic surrounding this ONE IO.... then how can they scream DOOM!?!?!?!? So.. how about that summer event...glances up at thread topic.... |
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Absolutely agree. Then we have no argument. That's all I've been saying for years and why I support this IO. Anyone that wants to keep their KB, I wish them well.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
It isn't as useful as KD. It's a situational power that can be absolutely broken in some situations and an irritant in others. Players need to have choices though, so let's leave it at that.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Choices - which is what this IO does - Gives the player the CHOICE between KB or KD.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
It isn't as useful as KD. It's a situational power that can be absolutely broken in some situations and an irritant in others. Players need to have choices though, so let's leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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I've been right plenty of times in opposition to the collective wisdom of the playerbase, but in this case there is no collective wisdom of the playerbase that states knockback's advantages outweigh its disadvantages. The collective wisdom of the playerbase, to the extent that there exists any consensus here, is that its annoying and should be removed on that basis.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Prove it. Prove how your infallible knowledge counters the collective wisdom of the playerbase.
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In either case, to disprove the statement that "the advantages of Knockback are not worth the disadvantages" I need only come up with a counter-example. But rather than do that, it would be more definitive to prove the inverse: that knockback's advantages outweigh its disadvantages on average, across all situations.
That's going to take some time, however, since there's... about fourteen different independent cases to consider.
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Can't you just give a counter-example? You seem to be kind of backlogged on things to exhaustively explore.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In either case, to disprove the statement that "the advantages of Knockback are not worth the disadvantages" I need only come up with a counter-example. But rather than do that, it would be more definitive to prove the inverse: that knockback's advantages outweigh its disadvantages on average, across all situations.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Hand Clap, Torrent, GUST! All powers that were crap before because of knockback are now not only viable but awesome as knockdown.|
Originally Posted by Positron
The conversion (Knockback to Knockdown) happens 100% of the time; if the power you slot this in does not have Knockback in it then it adds a proc to do Knockdown.
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Why wasn't this done YEARS ago?? Seriously.
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This isn't a knock on anyone or their playstyles, but I just can't fully understand the common mindset/playstyle of pack 'em up tight and AoE and roll on... It's just so boring to me.
It's like putting ducks in a barrel and shooting them.
You can explain to me how the getting the ducks properly sorted into the barrel and kept in there is the fun and challenging part, but I'd still rather enjoy the fun and chaos of running around and blamming, freeming, blapping, smashing everything in this way, that way and/or any which way that sounds fun at the time!
I'm in no rush and I'm not in need of stockpiling anything as quickly and as high as can be.
I don't say this to say that my way is better than anybody else's (other than for my own playtime fun). I just say it to say it and maybe afford a little understanding to the demands for always making everything work within their perceived best way to play.
Thankfully, I don't think anyone here has displayed any stand of everyone needs to play my way... this IO does, obviously, bring the subject up for some people, but that doesn't mean it actually causes it.
This IO will likely come and go with as much impact as any and every other one has had on my playtime - not much at all.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Actually, you're going to have to be very very specific here. Your original statement, and your last statement here, is that Knockbacks' advantages do not outweigh its disadvantages. I'm prepared to tackle that one. But if you're just going to fall back to "knockdown is better than knockback" which you just said is all you've ever said, then I should interpret your other statement in that context and assume you misspoke, and meant to say that knockback's advantages above and beyond knockdown do not outweigh its total disadvantages.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
One more thing. Like I have been for years, I am prepared to be proven wrong. No one ever takes me up on it. I've never stated that KB can't be useful. It can. But it's not as useful as KD on balance. That's my contention. Sure someone can construct a scenario where KB is useful. Hell, I can come up with better ones than you all can. But that's not even close to the point.
Knockback has clear disadvantages. Most of them stem from the fact that the game creates great incentives to keep critters in tightly packed clusters. Arcanaville knows this. I really can't believe she truly thinks that KB advantages outweigh or even equal its disadvantages. But if she does, please explain to me how this is possible, because I genuinely don't see it. |
I'm not prepared to expend energy on that one. As I said, not dying is better than dying also. You can always find something better much of the time. Holds are better than immobilizes, for example. Critters that don't shoot back are far less of a threat than those that do. So first we can replace all the immobilizes with holds, and then eliminate the need to waste time with holds by just removing all the attacks from critters. There's no slippery slope here because there's no slope. Knockdown is better than knockback in the same way holds are better than immobilizes. Holds that always work are better than ones that don't in exactly the same way. Holds that always work are tantamount to critters that can't take actions. At no time does this slope upward or downward in any direction.
Now as to whether knockback's advantages outweigh its disadvantages exactly as stated, the reason I can think that is because if you put my energy blaster in a situation where knockback is essentially gone, such as when facing resistant enemies, if I don't significantly reduce my difficulty I die. Simple as that. And no amount of less scatter equals dead. If you converted all my KB to KD would my performance be better? It might. It would also improve if you doubled all my damage and I guarantee you I will have more fun with double damage and KB than with KD.
TL;DR: I can think its true because its true.
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I am not into steamrolling... I like to play and chat and have fun. to that effect I play a lot of debuff toons. A great example of how this IO will be use don one of my toons:|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
This isn't a knock on anyone or their playstyles, but I just can't fully understand the common mindset/playstyle of pack 'em up tight and AoE and roll on... It's just so boring to me.
It's like putting ducks in a barrel and shooting them. You can explain to me how the getting the ducks properly sorted into the barrel and kept in there is the fun and challenging part, but I'd still rather enjoy the fun and chaos of running around and blamming, freeming, blapping, smashing everything in this way, that way and/or any which way that sounds fun at the time! I'm in no rush and I'm not in need of stockpiling anything as quickly and as high as can be. I don't say this to say that my way is better than anybody else's (other than for my own playtime fun). I just say it to say it and maybe afford a little understanding to the demands for always making everything work within their perceived best way to play. Thankfully, I don't think anyone here has displayed any stand of everyone needs to play my way... this IO does, obviously, bring the subject up for some people, but that doesn't mean it actually causes it. This IO will likely come and go with as much impact as any and every other one has had on my playtime - not much at all. |
Throw down Oil Slick... and then Explosive Arrow. Before I would have to skip using explosive arrow if it was gonna knock the baddies off my oil slick...or out of glue arrow..or disruption arrow..or poison arrow...or acid arrow... see where I am going with this? This IO will allow me to affect MORE debuff in that the baddies are incapacitated for a short time being knocked down and yet still stay in my other debuffs.
And for the record.. I have multiple toons that do KB, BUT I only plan on using this IO on this one toon.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Not to negate your statement BUT... this enhancement does not get rid of ALL your KB it affects a maximum of one power. While I agree that KB can be extremely useful...having the choice on one power to make it KD can be just as useful....please refer to my TA/Arch defender for example. If I cannot use Explosive Blast because I cannot leverage the KB to keep the baddies in the various debuffs that is one less attack I am able to use AND keep the baddies debuffed. In this situation...for me at least.. KD is far superior to KB as I am mitigating incoming damage for a brief time with KD; while still guaranteeing that I do not decrease my debuff of the enemies due to KB.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, you're going to have to be very very specific here. Your original statement, and your last statement here, is that Knockbacks' advantages do not outweigh its disadvantages. I'm prepared to tackle that one. But if you're just going to fall back to "knockdown is better than knockback" which you just said is all you've ever said, then I should interpret your other statement in that context and assume you misspoke, and meant to say that knockback's advantages above and beyond knockdown do not outweigh its total disadvantages.
I'm not prepared to expend energy on that one. As I said, not dying is better than dying also. You can always find something better much of the time. Holds are better than immobilizes, for example. Critters that don't shoot back are far less of a threat than those that do. So first we can replace all the immobilizes with holds, and then eliminate the need to waste time with holds by just removing all the attacks from critters. There's no slippery slope here because there's no slope. Knockdown is better than knockback in the same way holds are better than immobilizes. Holds that always work are better than ones that don't in exactly the same way. Holds that always work are tantamount to critters that can't take actions. At no time does this slope upward or downward in any direction. Now as to whether knockback's advantages outweigh its disadvantages exactly as stated, the reason I can think that is because if you put my energy blaster in a situation where knockback is essentially gone, such as when facing resistant enemies, if I don't significantly reduce my difficulty I die. Simple as that. And no amount of less scatter equals dead. If you converted all my KB to KD would my performance be better? It might. It would also improve if you doubled all my damage and I guarantee you I will have more fun with double damage and KB than with KD. TL;DR: I can think its true because its true. |
I think this whole argument over KD/KB is silly to say the least since these IOs only affect certain KB powers...and a maximum of one per toon..and wait for it... it is completely optional...so those who prefer their KB can keep it...and those who choose to go KD on one power...can do so as well
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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When I knock them down they get back up and are quickly in range to use their heaviest hitting melee attacks. When I knock them back they get back up and either use a weaker ranged attack or take the time to run back into melee range to use their heavier attacks.
That's an advantage to knock back that even an elementary school student can understand.
The only disadvantage in that situation for knock back is if the foes are knocked through a geometry hole so that I cannot target them or attack them. And for that you blame the geometry holes, not knock back.
EDIT: Math not needed for that situation.
Math is needed for that situation however. If you knock the foe away from your heavy hitting melee attacks, what have you really bought. For example.
Energy/Energy Blaster. You knock a foe away, they are no longer in range of Energy Punch, Bone Smasher and Total Focus. Bone Smasher and Total Focus do more damage than any of the blasts except the Sniper (and knock doesn't buy you enough time to use that). Energy Punch activates faster than ANY blast attack and Bone Smasher is faster than the T2 and T4 blasts. And by moving them away from you, you're giving up the chance for the VASTLY more powerful stun secondary effect.
So I'm not ready to acknowledge that you're better off in the situation you posit.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.