Martial Arts for Blasters

Another_Fan · 05-18-2012 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

I don't believe I have ever heard of anyone refer to Afraid as a mez before. Until now.

I win my bet with myself. I knew you couldn't gracefully admit to being wrong.

Quote:

In a thread brainstorming about a powerset that currently doesn't exist, that's an interesting thing to attempt to assert. I'll leave it to others to decide if my perspective on hypothetical powersets is worth discussion.

Even more interesting when you made a positive assertion about a powerset that does exist.

Quote:

In survivability terms, Fire Manipulation has the lowest amount of survivability tools of any existing Blaster manipulation set, and probably has a lower amount of survivability tools than any manipulation set ever proposed by anyone. Historically, its been consistently considered the most problematic blaster powerset, primary or secondary, for that reason

I must have missed have missed the devs changing /fire from actual to hypothetical.

Another_Fan · 05-18-2012 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat

He probably won't notice that knife sticking out of his kidney until sometime tomorrow.

Are you the one on the left or the right ?

Arcanaville · 05-18-2012 03:00 PM

It took a while to find, but I dug up my MA for blasters suggestion from 2006. I've updated it a bit to take into account game changes since then. It basically looks like this with the updates:

1. Crane Kick: animation as MA, 1.0 DS 6s rech 100% KB -90% range for 6s
2. Siphon Chi: effects as electric fence, plus 40% chance for +5% end to caster
3. Cobra Strike: as MA
4. Focus Chi: as MA
5. Blinding Powder: as Ninjitsu, but 0.9 DS and 45s recharge
6. Disrupt Chi: 15 foot radius PBAoE -10% res for 20s, 40% chance for 8 second stun, 90s recharge
7. Spring Escape: as Spring Jump, but effects occur at the origin not the target
8. Dragon's Tail: as MA
9. Eagle's Strike: animation as MA, 3.56 DS 20s rech 100% KD

Cobra used to be CAK, but Cobra makes more sense now. Disrupt Chi used to do something different, and the biggest swap is Spring Escape, stealing the mechanics of Spring Attack: it used to be a PBAoE stun/repel. I moved the stun to Disrupt Chi.

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Warfarin88 · 05-18-2012 04:25 PM

Spring Escape is definitely a winner. That power would be all kinds of fun.

PsychicKitty · 05-18-2012 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

It took a while to find, but I dug up my MA for blasters suggestion from 2006. I've updated it a bit to take into account game changes since then. It basically looks like this with the updates:

1. Crane Kick: animation as MA, 1.0 DS 6s rech 100% KB -90% range for 6s
2. Siphon Chi: effects as electric fence, plus 40% chance for +5% end to caster
3. Cobra Strike: as MA
4. Focus Chi: as MA
5. Blinding Powder: as Ninjitsu, but 0.9 DS and 45s recharge
6. Disrupt Chi: 15 foot radius PBAoE -10% res for 20s, 40% chance for 8 second stun, 90s recharge
7. Spring Escape: as Spring Jump, but effects occur at the origin not the target
8. Dragon's Tail: as MA
9. Eagle's Strike: animation as MA, 3.56 DS 20s rech 100% KD

Cobra used to be CAK, but Cobra makes more sense now. Disrupt Chi used to do something different, and the biggest swap is Spring Escape, stealing the mechanics of Spring Attack: it used to be a PBAoE stun/repel. I moved the stun to Disrupt Chi.

I still think the Blinding Powder On a blaster should actualy do damage...seriously...the power right now for stalkers gives -2% to the targets tohit value for its duration and thats only if it hits....it has a mag 1 confuse that might happen at 5% chance...and only on minions...which again the power has to hit...duration on the confuse is half the time of the -tohit and so with a whopping duration of 10 seconds maximum time....so the actual effect is very lackluster.....and to me just doesnt follow the typical blaster pattern of things.
I assume this is a secondary as the powers all seam to be the typical control-esque effects the blasters usualy get and not many of them are ranged attacks thus they cant be counted as blasts which the majority of the sets then have to be ranged, so that they can also carry to the other blasts using archtypes.

Also the siphon chi thing which is like lectric fence.....if you follow the typical pattern you wouldnt have that at 2...you only get a target immobolize with range or a push away power from point blank range if you are following the pattern of the sets at level 1 for blasters. So you wouldnt have a duplicate of that similar effect and would only have either or.....like energy for example doesnt have that immobolize..becasue it has the push away power....
So in this case i would more likely expect to see caltrops at the second choice....as that would be the more normal for blaster set secondarys.

But overall that looks like something I would expect to see in this game.

Wouldnt it be wild if on the next powerset proliferation they put somethign very similar into the game.

=^_^=

PsychicKitty · 05-18-2012 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

Hot feet is an AoE mag 3 afraid that can be left running.

I'd go into the rest but its nothing but your unsupported opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, but absent facts to support it there is nothing to talk about.

mag 3 afraid...um no.....it doesnt have that effect...it has the effect of making enemies not want to be in the effect sometimes.....becasue it has a slow effect to it and it does damage.

If it had afraid effect on it then you could easily use things that cause fear to stack easier but it doesnt...also it doesnt effect all targets...thus why for example on a warwolf you dont see them running away or cowering becasue they are immune to slow....and an affraid effect would be very noticable on them....another immune to the slowing are the magmites.....thus again....if there was an afraid effect they wouldnt get in your face and still smack you.

The damage though like caltrops and damage auras does cause enemies to not want to be in the effect....but thats definately not an affraid effect.
--
I had to look this up on what they said on paragon wiki..to see just what effects they where tleling people...as i was wondering if they said it had some form of mez effect.
---
Ok first off it doesnt have a -fly component to self on it....you can't activate it in the air....but you can fly with it on...and like the blazing aura it has a damage effect of a bubble around you....thus you can hover and use it.

oh and another way you can tell it doesnt have a mez effect...is simple pvp....notice players dont get effected by anything but a slow with it and some damage.

As for the fear you think these powers have.....for the people who remember back.....the developement team a while back decided to reprogram the AI so they wouldnt just stand there....for weeks this made alot of fire blasters and burn tanks upset...and the burn tanks went on and on how they couldnt taunt things and how the taunt was ruined...becasue enemies no longer just stood there mindlessly allowing them to annihilate them.
This also made it so players couldnt keep kiting enemies from the air super easy.

Arcanaville · 05-18-2012 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsychicKitty

I still think the Blinding Powder On a blaster should actualy do damage

I specified it to deal 0.9 DS damage in the post.

Quote:

I assume this is a secondary

It is intended to be a conversion of MA to a Blaster manipulation set, so yes, its a secondary.

Quote:

Also the siphon chi thing which is like lectric fence.....if you follow the typical pattern you wouldnt have that at 2...you only get a target immobolize with range or a push away power from point blank range if you are following the pattern of the sets at level 1 for blasters. So you wouldnt have a duplicate of that similar effect and would only have either or.....like energy for example doesnt have that immobolize..becasue it has the push away power....
So in this case i would more likely expect to see caltrops at the second choice....as that would be the more normal for blaster set secondarys

That was a tricky one. There is no real Martial Arts equivalent to a ranged immobilize - or really a ranged anything - but the obvious analog for a blaster manipulation set is adapting Crane Kick into a Power Thrust analog. I wanted the set to have as many actual MA powers or similar powers as possible or else what's the point. But that then left the question of range. Most blaster secondaries have some limited range. Converting Blinding Powder into a damaging cone was an obvious choice, but I felt the set needed one more ranged effect of some kind. I also did not want to simply replicate energy melee but with kicks. And the obvious choice most people stick in there is caltrops but I wanted something different. By giving it Crane Kick and a ranged immobilize early, I felt I was giving the set an interesting early tactical option of CK->immobilize. I thought that would certainly distinguish it from Energy Manipulation.

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Arcanaville · 05-18-2012 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsychicKitty

mag 3 afraid...um no.....it doesnt have that effect...it has the effect of making enemies not want to be in the effect sometimes.....becasue it has a slow effect to it and it does damage.

If it had afraid effect on it then you could easily use things that cause fear to stack easier but it doesnt...also it doesnt effect all targets...thus why for example on a warwolf you dont see them running away or cowering becasue they are immune to slow....and an affraid effect would be very noticable on them....another immune to the slowing are the magmites.....thus again....if there was an afraid effect they wouldnt get in your face and still smack you.

The damage though like caltrops and damage auras does cause enemies to not want to be in the effect....but thats definately not an affraid effect.

Actually, Hot feet does have a mag 3 afraid effect. In that respect Another_Fan is correct. Afraid is not the same thing as Terrorize. Terrorize is the effect commonly referred to by players as "fear" in fear powers. Afraid is a totally different effect: it is an effect that induces critter AI to run away from a target. We don't normally consider it a mez because it doesn't act as any of the traditional effects referred to by players as "mez." For example, Longbow Eagle's (the flying ones) actually have a self-afraid aura power they cast on themselves. Kinda like invincibility: when a player enters the PBAoE range of the aura, it causes the power to buff the critter with afraid instead of defense. And that causes the critter to move away from the player. We don't usually say that the Eagle mezzed themselves, though.

Note: in the old days, as in at release, Fear did induce Afraid, or a form of it. The mechanics of terrorize were added significantly after release. And the reason was that afraid as mitigation effect was considered basically worthless. It would only help if you induced a long enough Afraid to cause them to run completely out of range, and back then the spectral terror could cause critters to run so far away they actually deaggroed. Which is technically damage mitigation, but very problematic mitigation.

Afraid is what the devs would call a "boolean state." The mez effects are generally also boolean states, but so are other things like Fly. Fly is the state of flying, and powers that ground you apply -Fly. When players or devs talk about mez effects, powers that affect or effect mez, or situations involving mez, they generally refer to the standard mez effects of hold, sleep, stun, terrorize, confuse, immobilize, and sometimes intangible, taunt, and placate. And as a special case, knockback and knockup. KB and KU are very special cases because while they are boolean states, no one is actually "in" those states for any particular length of time. KB and KU are not handled by the mez system of the game, in fact, but rather by the physics engine and animation engines of the game. In fact, being "knocked" is not an actual player state: it is the act of being stuck in a knockback animation that the animation engine will not allow you to interrupt.

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StratoNexus · 05-19-2012 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

1. Crane Kick: animation as MA, 1.0 DS 6s rech 100% KB -90% range for 6s
2. Siphon Chi: effects as electric fence, plus 40% chance for +5% end to caster
3. Cobra Strike: as MA
4. Focus Chi: as MA
5. Blinding Powder: as Ninjitsu, but 0.9 DS and 45s recharge
6. Disrupt Chi: 15 foot radius PBAoE -10% res for 20s, 40% chance for 8 second stun, 90s recharge
7. Spring Escape: as Spring Jump, but effects occur at the origin not the target
8. Dragon's Tail: as MA
9. Eagle's Strike: animation as MA, 3.56 DS 20s rech 100% KD

That is cool; it has four AoE effects, which appeals to me greatly, although all of them but Dragon's Tail are on long recharges. While I love /Fire, which lacks a big single target attack completely, I'd miss the early crunch I've always envisioned MA would have (some 14ish second recharge attack). Of course the bonus damage you get out of Disrupt Chi would more than make up for it numerically, but not viscerally.

Did you penalize Crane Kick's damage on purpose due to the 2 extra effects? I've never understood why Power Thrust's damage is so low. I know they did the same thing to Repulsing Torrent, but then reverted that power back to its calculated DS.

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Winterminal · 05-19-2012 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StratoNexus

Did you penalize Crane Kick's damage on purpose due to the 2 extra effects? I've never understood why Power Thrust's damage is so low. I know they did the same thing to Repulsing Torrent, but then reverted that power back to its calculated DS.

The way Arcanaville presented Crane Kick was actually the cross between Power Thrust and every other T1 immobilization save for Web Grenade (no damage there) and Ring of Fire (which of course has extra fire damage). The 1 DS matches Subdual, ChilBlain, Penumbral Grasp, and Electric Fence, while the 6s recharge is consistent with Power Thrust and, probably as you say, to compensate for the extra damage potential of the set later in its career. Also, with recharge being what it is, that attack could quickly become available every 3 seconds, and make it a decent part of an attack chain.

I'm just inferring based on number observations, though.

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I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.

Grey Pilgrim · 05-19-2012 11:17 AM

I like Arcana's suggestions for the set. Good mix of damage and control and has a good/different flavor from other secondaries. I might possibly quibble with Dragon's Tail, as that seems a bit over the top or more melee AOE than I want for a Blaster, especially with Spring Escape, but I have no clue what I would put there instead.

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Arcanaville · 05-21-2012 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterminal

The way Arcanaville presented Crane Kick was actually the cross between Power Thrust and every other T1 immobilization save for Web Grenade (no damage there) and Ring of Fire (which of course has extra fire damage). The 1 DS matches Subdual, ChilBlain, Penumbral Grasp, and Electric Fence, while the 6s recharge is consistent with Power Thrust and, probably as you say, to compensate for the extra damage potential of the set later in its career. Also, with recharge being what it is, that attack could quickly become available every 3 seconds, and make it a decent part of an attack chain.

I'm just inferring based on number observations, though.

That is in fact exactly the thought process I initially had for the power, and I think that thought process still holds up today. I put -range in there because I think that KB + -range is the better analog to ranged immobilize than just KB + let them shoot you.

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Premonitions · 05-21-2012 12:36 PM

Now that I thin about it, MA being sort of the opposite of Devices makes sense
I still want caltrops though.

Quote:

That is in fact exactly the thought process I initially had for the power, and I think that thought process still holds up today. I put -range in there because I think that KB + -range is the better analog to ranged immobilize than just KB + let them shoot you.

This is such a great idea.

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Arcanaville · 05-21-2012 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim

I like Arcana's suggestions for the set. Good mix of damage and control and has a good/different flavor from other secondaries. I might possibly quibble with Dragon's Tail, as that seems a bit over the top or more melee AOE than I want for a Blaster, especially with Spring Escape, but I have no clue what I would put there instead.

The idea was to keep as many MA powers as possible, so Dragon's tail was going to stay. In fact, starting from the list of MA powers:

Thunder Kick
Storm Kick
Crane Kick
Cobra Strike
CAK
Warriors Challenge
Focus Chi
Dragon's Tail
Eagle's Claw

Its obvious Challenge goes, and Focus Chi stays. I felt that DT and EC were the "signature moves" of the set in terms of what it looks like, and so they had to stay. I also felt that Cobra was an easy thing to keep and as the only punch (back when I first did this exercise) it was also essential to keep. Crane Kick seems to be such a good analog for Power Thrust and there's no ranged immobilize in the set, so that seemed another obvious power to keep.

That meant I was keeping Crane Kick, Cobra Strike, Focus Chi, Dragon's Tail, and Eagle's Claw. That seemed to keep enough of the flavor of the set that I could still call it a Martial Arts variant. I wanted the set to have both melee utility and ranged utility, and there's plenty melee in there, so the powers I added tended to focus on adding range utility. Even spring escape is a ranged utility power even though it deals damage in a PBAoE, because its intended to work as described: to spring out of trouble in a very blasterish sort of way: kaboom, and now I'm far away. Of course, you don't have to use it that way: you could spring escape to the same spot you're standing on, just as spring attack can be used now.

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Arcanaville · 05-21-2012 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premonitions

Now that I thin about it, MA being sort of the opposite of Devices makes sense
I still want caltrops though.

I wouldn't do it, because I want to keep as many MA powers as possible, but if the devs agreed with Grey Pilgrim that DT wasn't appropriate, Caltrops seems to be a logical choice as an alternative power for that slot, perhaps with some set reshuffling.

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Angelxman81 · 05-21-2012 03:34 PM

My take on martial arts:

1 Crane kick Melee, Moderate DMG (smash), knockback
2 Shuriken Ranged, Moderate DMG (lethal)
3 Storm kick Melee, Moderate DMG (smash)
4 Focus chi Self + DMG,+To Hit
5 Caltrops Ranged (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Lethal), Foe -SPD, -Jump
6 Exploding shuriken Ranged (Targeted AoE), Moderate DMG(Lethal)
7 Spinning strike Melee (Targeted AoE), Heavy Dmg (Smash), Foe Knockdown
8 Rib cracker Melee, Moderate DMG (Smash), Foe -Res (All), -Dmg
9 Eagle's claw Melee, Superior DMG(Smash), Foe Disorient, +Special

Some ranged attacks, some inmo, and some kd AoE for survivability.

Arcanaville · 05-21-2012 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelxman81

My take on martial arts:

1 Crane kick Melee, Moderate DMG (smash), knockback
2 Shuriken Ranged, Moderate DMG (lethal)
3 Storm kick Melee, Moderate DMG (smash)
4 Focus chi Self + DMG,+To Hit
5 Caltrops Ranged (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Lethal), Foe -SPD, -Jump
6 Exploding shuriken Ranged (Targeted AoE), Moderate DMG(Lethal)
7 Spinning strike Melee (Targeted AoE), Heavy Dmg (Smash), Foe Knockdown
8 Rib cracker Melee, Moderate DMG (Smash), Foe -Res (All), -Dmg
9 Eagle's claw Melee, Superior DMG(Smash), Foe Disorient, +Special

Some ranged attacks, some inmo, and some kd AoE for survivability.

To me, this feels like its heading in the direction of a dominator assault set more than a blaster manipulation set given its structure. More attacks and more conventional ranged attacks and less utility powers.

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MajorDecoy · 05-21-2012 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

7. Spring Escape: as Spring Jump, but effects occur at the origin not the target

This one is very clever, I quite like it.

StratoNexus · 05-21-2012 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajorDecoy

This one is very clever, I quite like it.

Indeed. I very much like the idea of a quick escape (or charge) power.

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Oedipus_Tex · 05-22-2012 01:20 PM

I would like to see MA for Blasters get a single target, fast-ish recharging attack that teleports you to the enemy. We have seen Shield Charge and Leap Attack, this is the single target cousin. 16-ish second base recharge.

Before you ask, yes I am envisioning a Super Speedster melee based melee set off this as well.

Arcanaville · 05-22-2012 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

I would like to see MA for Blasters get a single target, fast-ish recharging attack that teleports you to the enemy. We have seen Shield Charge and Leap Attack, this is the single target cousin. 16-ish second base recharge.

Before you ask, yes I am envisioning a Super Speedster melee based melee set off this as well.

I am seeing a teleport-based attack set. I could see such a power for MA in general, but I didn't think it was as appropriate for a blaster manipulation set. But its an obvious base attack in a teleport-melee set.

A powerset with seven or eight teleporting attacks might actually be too much; constantly teleporting doesn't seem as interesting as optionally teleporting. So perhaps a teleport-attack power pool set makes sense one day. That way you could add teleport attacking to any other set's repertoire.

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Razai · 05-22-2012 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

It took a while to find, but I dug up my MA for blasters suggestion from 2006. I've updated it a bit to take into account game changes since then. It basically looks like this with the updates:

1. Crane Kick: animation as MA, 1.0 DS 6s rech 100% KB -90% range for 6s
2. Siphon Chi: effects as electric fence, plus 40% chance for +5% end to caster
3. Cobra Strike: as MA
4. Focus Chi: as MA
5. Blinding Powder: as Ninjitsu, but 0.9 DS and 45s recharge
6. Disrupt Chi: 15 foot radius PBAoE -10% res for 20s, 40% chance for 8 second stun, 90s recharge
7. Spring Escape: as Spring Jump, but effects occur at the origin not the target
8. Dragon's Tail: as MA
9. Eagle's Strike: animation as MA, 3.56 DS 20s rech 100% KD

Cobra used to be CAK, but Cobra makes more sense now. Disrupt Chi used to do something different, and the biggest swap is Spring Escape, stealing the mechanics of Spring Attack: it used to be a PBAoE stun/repel. I moved the stun to Disrupt Chi.

While I do like this suggestion in ref to the MA set for blasters. Why not take the spring escape to function as its name implies, like a lower mag group placate. Not to make the blaster invis but just untargetable for a few secs with a TH check so that it does have the chance to miss one or some of the enemies. Also i think Disrupt Chi should deal damage....

Arcanaville · 05-22-2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razai

While I do like this suggestion in ref to the MA set for blasters. Why not take the spring escape to function as its name implies, like a lower mag group placate. Not to make the blaster invis but just untargetable for a few secs with a TH check so that it does have the chance to miss one or some of the enemies.

Well, my thought process for Spring Escape was that it would be nice to have an attack that could simultaneously be used to escape a group of attackers. In general, I prefer blaster moves to deal damage whenever possible, although there are exceptions.

Quote:

Also i think Disrupt Chi should deal damage....

Like this one. It could, although my worry would be that anything other than trivial damage would cause the devs to think the recharge should be higher. I would rather it be available more often than do damage and be available less often. As a utility power (with -res and stun) its value would be decreased by being available less often, even if it did actual damage. Given that, preserving its utility would take priority for me.

If it could have a small amount of damage without affecting its effects or recharge, I'd certainly be fine with that.

Also, a note on Placate. Placate does not make you invisible. Placate, the stalker power, places the stalker into the hidden state and places the target in the placated state. The hidden state for stalkers doesn't make them invisible, it is just a word that means they are in the enhanced state for criticals. In fact, in CoV beta I lobbied for it to be called the critical state instead of the hidden state for this reason. The placated state for the target places them in a state where they cannot aggro the caster unless the caster hits them with an attack first, until the effect expires.

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PsychicKitty · 05-22-2012 05:23 PM

Oh i think i know a solution for a power.....instead of using crane kick...ie you dont want the set to be a copy of energy.

How about the putting in original Storm Kick the one that did the hundred kicks animation.....but instead they could change it to a cone like dark maul....and enhance that original effect of it making the target sit there and take a beating.

That would definately set this set apart from the other martial arts sets...and it would re-use something they probably still have in the game engine somewhere.

I only bring this up...becasue i truly liked that attacked...>_>...used to use it and flurry all the time...really made me feel like a super speedster when i did that too...then they took it out...and my character and concept was gone....so i ended up deleting that character.

But for something special for martial arts and making it definately a different kind of set....i think it would be useful.

Arcanaville · 05-22-2012 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsychicKitty

Oh i think i know a solution for a power.....instead of using crane kick...ie you dont want the set to be a copy of energy.

How about the putting in original Storm Kick the one that did the hundred kicks animation.....but instead they could change it to a cone like dark maul....and enhance that original effect of it making the target sit there and take a beating.

That would definately set this set apart from the other martial arts sets...and it would re-use something they probably still have in the game engine somewhere.

I only bring this up...becasue i truly liked that attacked...>_>...used to use it and flurry all the time...really made me feel like a super speedster when i did that too...then they took it out...and my character and concept was gone....so i ended up deleting that character.

But for something special for martial arts and making it definately a different kind of set....i think it would be useful.

My own intent was not to differentiate the set from Martial Arts itself, but to make it as close a cousin to Martial Arts as possible.

A Storm Kick cone would have to be in a different slot than power #1 in a manipulation set because that's the defiant-capable attack, and you'd want it to be either a ranged immobilize or a melee knockback or something similar for that reason.

A Storm Kick cone could be an interesting addition to the set as a Dominator assault remix, replacing Siphon Chi perhaps. Or you could start with Angelxman81's version, and convert that Storm Kick into a cone.

In any case you'd probably want to redo the animation to speed it up a bit: the original Storm Kick had a 4 second animation, and in today's game that would drive many players batty.

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