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I can only speak for myself here: calling blasters a melee archetype has really become the only thing I disagree with you on. As you say later in that post, they have melee abilities mixed with other stuff. So I would think of them as a ranged archetype with melee capabilities, rather than a melee archetype itself. As we've established numerous times in this thread and in others, it is a grey definition. But for me at least, I am left scratching my head when I see Blasters being called a melee archetype when their secondary is called "Support" by the game (whatever that means), when it does not come up in the "Melee Damage" category, and when the archetype is perfectly functional while ignoring the melee attacks (whereas a Scrapper would not be). |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Sigh. What about when almost all evidence supports the assertion? Do not confuse being a melee AT with being an armored AT. Blasters are a melee AT that lacks armor. They are not solely a melee AT. They generally should not live in melee all the time, but that doesn't mean they are not a melee AT. I have already put forth much evidence in this thread of their melee nature, I am certainly not simply stating the fact without also backing it up. Vitally keep in mind, the primary point I am making is that blaster secondaries share enough power types in common with brute primaries that any new melee attack set design should include blaster secondaries.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
...(I am not opposed to some elements of those sets being in a few blaster secondary powers, Drain Psyche, Chilling Embrace, Ice Patch, Burn, etc. nor am I opposed to maybe adding a little armor or some more buff/debuff, but not at the expense of the melee attacks, rather in addition to). I am certainly not going to suggest a secondary set design for blasters that goes well outside of the current rules until the devs change those rules.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
While I am certainly not opposed to throwing in one or two ranged mez or some otherwise helpful benefiting power into new Blaster secondaries, I don't think a heavy melee attack focus for a Martial Arts secondary is an odd thing to offer.
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My biggest problem with Darkness Manipulation was the absence of the traditional Build Up. To a player like me, who prefers to stay at range, Fire Manipulation does not have much, but I can at least use Build Up to make sure my ranged attacks count. With Darkness Manipulation, yes, there is the T1 standard immobilization, but that's really it! Sure, there's Dark Pit, but with a base accuracy of .8, and a brief stun that only works on minions, it is an abysmal power for any archetype to use. With nearly every other secondary, the performance of one of my ranged-only blasters has been comparable to a blapper with the same power set line up. Maybe not completely on par (I'm not that big of a number junkie), but nothing too noticeable. There is a huge difference in the performance of my ranged Dark/Darkness and that of a Dark/Darkness blapper, and that disparity is the crux of my argument.
Again, Blaster secondaries have a grey definition since they tend to be a mixed bag of attacks (both ranged and melee), mez, self-buffs, and minor foe debuffs, hence why they are called something as ambiguous as "Support." As long as the category is called "Support" and not "Melee," I wish to continue to see mixed bag power sets. Or, if they release a set (like Darkness) that leans heavily to one side of the spectrum, that they also release a set soon after that leans to the other side of the spectrum.
So in the case of Martial Arts, while I would prefer a mixed bag power set, there are obviously those of us blaster-enthusiasts who would prefer to have a set heavy in melee for Martial Arts. You all are probably right since a Martial Arts set should be, well, chock-full of kicking and punching! But if a set like that is released, I am sure players like myself would like to see a different set that carried more utility for the ranged players.
If the Devs take a look at Blasters and decide that their secondary category should be called "Melee," (as was the original intent according to that article posted up-thread) then I will shut up, drop my argument, and adapt my playing style. Until that hypothetical time, I am just looking for an even spread of powers for all styles of play.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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That is cool. Ironically, even my version of the MA set (which had the least "support" of the suggestions in here) would likely look better to you than /Dark. It has Build Up and Quick Recovery (and if one of the attacks was removed, as I would likely do now that they added damage to Cobra Strike, possibly another utility power).
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
So in the case of Martial Arts, while I would prefer a mixed bag power set, there are obviously those of us blaster-enthusiasts who would prefer to have a set heavy in melee for Martial Arts. You all are probably right since a Martial Arts set should be, well, chock-full of kicking and punching! But if a set like that is released, I am sure players like myself would like to see a different set that carried more utility for the ranged players.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I'm cranky, Strat, and I'm probably not making the arguments I should be making.
My main disagreement is with the devs who didn't decide what constitutes a "good Blaster secondary" back in beta. Really, if I could roll back the cottage rule on something it would be Blasters as a whole, or Blaster secondaries as a whole.
Having said that? I think "melee" is accurate for Fire, Elec and Energy the way I use them. It's not accurate for Ice or Mental.
I'm angry that I have to consider a secondary where I actively like two powers "one of the good ones"; but here's my list of the powers I actively like in the various secondaries.
Devices: I recuse myself.
Darkness: Not enough experience.
Energy: Energy Punch, Build Up, Bonesmasher, Conserve Power. [1]
Electricity: Charged Brawl, Build Up, Havoc Punch, Power Sink. [2]
Fire: Fire Sword, Fire Sword Circle, Build Up, Consume. [3]
Ice: Build Up, Ice Patch, Shiver.
Mental: Psychic Scream, Concentration.
This is my playstyle only, I repeat. But Ice and Mental, the way I use them, are in no way melee sets. If I don't have two really good melee-range powers I don't get up close on purpose. Yeah, I'll ice-sword or mind-probe someone every once in a while, like you do, but it's not the job I pick the set for. Electricity, Energy and Fire are "melee sets" with additional functionality for me. I jump in, use the powers, and try to make it back out alive. Maybe I'm living in the past, but getting hammered flat by a Freak Tank (warrior mace, rikti sword...) is not a good insurance risk.
[1] There are arguments for Boost Range, Power Boost and Total Focus but I don't tend to use those powers much myself.
[2] I've used Shocking Grasp very occasionally. Thunder Strike barely fits in "good" for me.
[3] "You'd like those other powers if you ran all of them at once" hits me like saying "You'd like beer if you drank a whole lot more of it."
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Out of nowhere this just came to me: How about a secondary where one of the powers was passive +damage? Not in place of Build Up, in addition.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I just want to point out that "Blappers" and "Exclusively Ranged Players" may be the two extremes, but those of us who play at ranged and in melee to use all of our powers are not "Blappers".|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
I do not think anyone is calling for a Blaster secondary completely devoid of melee options. At the least, I am not. But since their secondary category is currently called "Support" rather than "Melee," I think there should be an even balance of powers in those sets for "blappers" as well as exclusively ranged players.
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No problem between us or what you're saying, but I know that you're coming from the standpoint of being an at ranged blaster! And you have to remember that your position is an extreme.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
My biggest problem with Darkness Manipulation was the absence of the traditional Build Up.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
To a player like me, who prefers to stay at range, Fire Manipulation does not have much, but I can at least use Build Up to make sure my ranged attacks count. With Darkness Manipulation, yes, there is the T1 standard immobilization, but that's really it! Sure, there's Dark Pit, but with a base accuracy of .8, and a brief stun that only works on minions, it is an abysmal power for any archetype to use. With nearly every other secondary, the performance of one of my ranged-only blasters has been comparable to a blapper with the same power set line up. Maybe not completely on par (I'm not that big of a number junkie), but nothing too noticeable. There is a huge difference in the performance of my ranged Dark/Darkness and that of a Dark/Darkness blapper, and that disparity is the crux of my argument.
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Really, the term "Blapper" has grown into confusion and misuse and has maybe done more harm towards the perceptions of what isn't a "Blapper".
And I am not trying to sit here telling you the way it is... I'm honestly just thinking out loud and could be wrong!
I have found that my Dark/Dark blaster (and most any blaster I've played) is completely capable of performing well with just using the blasts from the primary. However, I enjoy using the secondary as well and find that, while it is a different experience and approach, it usually creates a greater performance (at the very least, it gets me more exhilarated, haha).
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
So in the case of Martial Arts, while I would prefer a mixed bag power set, there are obviously those of us blaster-enthusiasts who would prefer to have a set heavy in melee for Martial Arts. You all are probably right since a Martial Arts set should be, well, chock-full of kicking and punching! But if a set like that is released, I am sure players like myself would like to see a different set that carried more utility for the ranged players.
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This specific secondary could easily (and possibly should) be heayily focused on the melee aspect.
However, I am all for other secondaries that differ from that, for certain. Not necessarily for balance purposes between extreme ranged or melee focused playstyles, but just because the AT is versatile enough to allow for it.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
If the Devs take a look at Blasters and decide that their secondary category should be called "Melee," (as was the original intent according to that article posted up-thread) then I will shut up, drop my argument, and adapt my playing style. Until that hypothetical time, I am just looking for an even spread of powers for all styles of play.
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In the end, though, I don't really mind if some ranged-only love is given. I like outliers and variety and definitely feel like that is an area that could be explored more. However, I do think that's what ranged-only is.
While some may think of me as a blapper, I most enjoy using my holds and drains and saps and leveraging any advantage I can in order to stay alive and deliver the hurt. I just find that being in melee (as an E3 blaster... *coughblaptrollercough*) works out great.
Anyway, I just wanted to mention that I am not a brawl-it-out with no regard for utility powers sort of player... and, honestly, no successful Blaster/Blapper is.
I think the term "Blapper" comes from two places...
1) people who took on the extreme approach of Blasters only using melee powers and showing that it could be done and carrying the name, "Blapper" as a badge of pride and accomplishment.
2) people were scared to enter into melee (despite the design of many of the secondaries and/or because the melee powers in the secondaries were seen more as panic buttons for situational use) so anyone who willfully enters into melee became a "blapper".
I'll stop rambling about it now...
Just going to add this...
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
[2] I've used Shocking Grasp very occasionally. Thunder Strike barely fits in "good" for me.
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@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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To be precise, because this conflates a lot of things into the same wording:|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Do not confuse being a melee AT with being an armored AT. Blasters are a melee AT that lacks armor. They are not solely a melee AT. They generally should not live in melee all the time, but that doesn't mean they are not a melee AT. I have already put forth much evidence in this thread of their melee nature, I am certainly not simply stating the fact without also backing it up.
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1. Blasters by intent are intended to fight in melee range at least some of the time.
2. Blasters by design are not very good at it in most cases.
3. Blasters by observational datamining appear extremely bad at it in most cases.
4. Blasters by dev acknowledgement do not consistently have the tools to survive in melee range effectively, without levels of skill considered very high relative to the average player.
So whether Blasters are a "melee archetype" depends on what you mean by that. Are they intended to fight in melee range sometimes? Yes. But then again you could say that about many controllers. Are they given the tools to be effective as a melee ranged archetype? Speaking as someone who has played their main as a blapper for six years out of eight, I would say no.
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| Vitally keep in mind, the primary point I am making is that blaster secondaries share enough power types in common with brute primaries that any new melee attack set design should include blaster secondaries. |
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Electric-Knight said
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Much greater? Really. | If you used Shocking Grasp more, you may find survivability in melee much greater and you might find other powers much more friendly/useable/to-your-liking! Held enemies being hit with my Lightning Field, for example, works out rather nicely and safely! |
Let's hypothesize that we're facing something like... two lieutenants and six minions. That's, what, +1/x3? Which, by level 38 is a VERY conservative level for anyone except a blaster? The times when Shocking Grasp will change the fight are, maybe, "one lieutenant and two minions" or less. Which doesn't come up that often, honestly.
At those times, I generally have the choice of either Shocking Grasp or a melee attack doing twice the damage which will eliminate either a minion or the lieutenant from the fight (AOE damage being what it is). So my choice is either mez someone or kill them. Either has the same effect on incoming damage; one requires me to finish the job in a few seconds.
I don't HAVE thirty seconds in melee range to finish this fight. I have, maybe, ten if I stun someone, six if I don't.
"Held Enemies being hit with my lightning field" will do (in six seconds) probably two ticks of damage, damage scale 0.4 . Considering that Havoc Punch is damage scale 2.0 we are talking about 20% more damage. And lightning field breaks any opportunistic sleeps I manage to inflict with melee attacks.
( Remember how I mentioned that Blaster sets are at war with themselves? Sleep, meet DOT. )
There are cases- say, on a Sonic/Elec blaster- where a second hold would be really handy. Sleep everyone but the boss, two-shot hold the boss. . . what's that? Sonic's Stun doesn't stack with hold? Well, crap.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I'd like to reiterate up a related, more general, point: I ONLY HAVE SIX SECONDS TO LIVE IN MELEE RANGE. And even that's pushing it. So I have a place for about three attacks. Those attacks have to be CONSIDERABLY BETTER THAN WHAT I ALREADY HAVE or there's no point in stepping up and exposing myself to all those fresh, high damage, unused melee attacks. (I haven't measured lately, but doesn't one hit from a +1 Freak Tank do about 80% of a Blaster's hit points at level 38?) Blasters have enough trouble taking ONE alpha.
I'm going to check this right now.
Exemped down, L34 blaster, no accolades, 941 HP.
Tank Swiper slashes you for 548.7 points of lethal damage!
So only 60% of my hit points. Clearly I got thrown off by the 220 point sawblade and the 220 point grenade.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Fulmens, we can come up with different scenarios that work more or less favorably. Also, I hope my reply to you didn't come off as a learn to play sort of comment. It was just a friendly mentioning.
I don't play on +1 x3... Not everyone plays solo, not everyone plays on teams, not everyone plays on whatever difficulty setting you play on.
Even in your scenario... Two LTs and 6 minions.
Of course, it depends on your Primary, but ignoring that, first:
Hold one LT, focus on the other and deliver AoEs if you've got them. Also, the damage of Shocking Grasp is certainly not insignificant!
That damage plus Lightning Field will be delivered while you dish out all your other damage.
If you go into battle and just use those two powers... no, that wouldn't be great survivability, hehehe. However, if you're having problems fighting 2 LTs and 6 Minions... using a hold can be better than not using a hold.
And I wasn't thinking that it'd be the only tools you'd be utilizing for survival.
Honestly, I don't get it... People complain about Blasters not being survivable, but they don't seem to want to sacrifice their time in order to survive.
Shocking Grasp is a mag 3 hold that delivers a solid amount of damage over time.
Unless you have a way of soloing your enemies without any of them reaching melee range (and you enjoy the process that you use to manage that), Shocking Grasp makes for a great power.
As for Bosses... absolutely, Shocking Grasp and another hold are a beautiful thing (I have 3 as an E3 Blaster).
As for the sleep within /Elec, I just see it as an occasional benefit. It's nothing I rely on, but there are times that an as-of-yet-non-defeated enemy stands around wriggling in electric convulsions and I have zero complaints about that.
Honestly, I always took it to be a thematic inclusion, rather than something to really game or rely upon.
My experiences have shown enemies gathered around me drop more quickly by having Lightning Field on.
My experiences also show me that I can survive in the middle of melee, outnumbered and with zero defense (and zero IO bonuses whatsoever... I only play with Standard IOs... basically SOs).
I'm not saying anyone has to play like me (and, hey, maybe my skill playing this way is above average... I think it just fits with my preferred playstyle, but those can sometimes be one and the same), but my experiences tell me it's not only beneficial and aides survivability... it works.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Where does this number come from?|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I ONLY HAVE SIX SECONDS TO LIVE IN MELEE RANGE.
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I honestly can't say if it is accurate or not (without using powers to stop things from attacking you), but... There is no way I am only in melee for 6 seconds at a time... and I really rarely ever get defeated when playing solo.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Electric-Knight, you're right. My definition of a "blapper" is skewed, simply because I take the words at their base meaning. I refer to a "Blaster" the same way that Han Solo refers to his weapon of choice: it is something that shoots other things. So any punching being done by my own or any other Blaster characters immediately gets classified as "blapping" in my head, even if the character may not be a "blapper" by the extreme definition. I acknowledge that it is the wrong use of the term according to the generally accepted definition, so I apologize for any lack of clarity in my previous posts, haha. (I can still remember rolling my first blaster, also my first character, and thinking, "What's with the melee abilities? Why would I punch something when I could just shoot it?")
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Once again, Arcanaville takes what I've been trying to say in mile-long posts, and says it better in four sentences. *sigh |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To be precise, because this conflates a lot of things into the same wording:
1. Blasters by intent are intended to fight in melee range at least some of the time. 2. Blasters by design are not very good at it in most cases. 3. Blasters by observational datamining appear extremely bad at it in most cases. 4. Blasters by dev acknowledgement do not consistently have the tools to survive in melee range effectively, without levels of skill considered very high relative to the average player. |
*Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Exemped down, L34 blaster, no accolades, 941 HP.
Tank Swiper slashes you for 548.7 points of lethal damage! So only 60% of my hit points. Clearly I got thrown off by the 220 point sawblade and the 220 point grenade. |
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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I should point out that Shocking Grasp has almost twice the DPA of thunder strike, but more importantly unless you have freem levels of recharge using one rarely precludes using the other as well. Shocking Grasp plus Charged Brawl deals far more damage than Thunder Strike in significantly less time. But regardless, a blapper would be using all three to significant effect.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
At those times, I generally have the choice of either Shocking Grasp or a melee attack doing twice the damage which will eliminate either a minion or the lieutenant from the fight (AOE damage being what it is). So my choice is either mez someone or kill them. Either has the same effect on incoming damage; one requires me to finish the job in a few seconds.
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I was a bit curious if I had gone insane and/or was completely wrong about my past experiences as a Blaster (honestly, I like to keep open minded about things)...
So, I ran two missions at +0 level x 3 on my E3 Blaster, Electric-Knight. And decided to play kinda stupid, as in... just run into melee and deal with everything 100% in melee... plus no using my Incarnate Powers (except for Alpha-Musculature, which I left in and didn't think about until afterward).
Both missions were against Circle Of Thorns. Lots of damn Ice Casters and Fire wielding LTs, but pretty simple enemies, for the most part. Death Mages at the end of both missions (the first one with two Death Mages around the hostage).
It was fun!
I dropped once... about three groups into the first mission, as I started the fight without full health and just plain goofed on my timing of things.
I opted not to /Rest after most fights, but did need to maybe 3 times through both missions.
The second mission was a breeze.
The first mission, the end included two bosses.
I defeated them and the entire large spawn entirely within melee. I kept forgetting to count how long I could survive within melee... pretty sure it was longer than 6 seconds, but... it is irrelevant since nothing outlived me (except for that one time!).
Now... there were a few things that made this far more difficult than it needed be:
- First off, I wasn't using Range or any ranged powers to help me solo these groups and was just charging in and playing a bit blindly.
- I wasn't using my Incarnate Powers (Barrier would have made this far far easier, but... maybe that's not fair to go by).
- I don't have any set bonuses, defenses or anything beyond what you'd get from regular SOs.
- I am weird... I do not use inspirations other than Greens, Blues, Break Frees and Lifts (if needed). Why? I hate the icons that float around if you use +damage, +accuracy, +resistance, +defense! So, I don't use 'em!! Pop a few Lucks and this'd be a cakewalk, hehe. Inspirations are a great tool within the game... I just wish they weren't ugly to use!
I'm just an odd, immersion-craving, role-player that often only plays a few missions a week... That can solo with Blasters entirely in melee. *shrugs*
If I posted my build... I'd probably get hate mail for years over how boring and ineffective it is.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I would prefer a video myself. I suspect that half of that comes from draining the minions and the rest comes from blapping the bosses, but its difficult to say without a blow by blow analysis of the fights. But I should point out that both /energy and /electric blasters were blapping through missions long before inventions existed and long after ED was instituted. I suspect you're either underestimating your skill or overestimating the average skill of City of Heroes players.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
If I posted my build... I'd probably get hate mail for years over how boring and ineffective it is.
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Quote:
Oh, sapping endurance is absolutely a large part of my success doing it on that character. My general approach (again, I wasn't really planning... just doing, but that is tainted by years of playing this character and knowing what to do already), was maybe lay a hold on one foe, then Power Sink and Short Circuit, then either AoE damage or a hold for any pesky bastards still causing problems (maybe outside of my rush job endurance draining).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I would prefer a video myself. I suspect that half of that comes from draining the minions and the rest comes from blapping the bosses, but its difficult to say without a blow by blow analysis of the fights. But I should point out that both /energy and /electric blasters were blapping through missions long before inventions existed and long after ED was instituted. I suspect you're either underestimating your skill or overestimating the average skill of City of Heroes players.
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Lightning Ball and a bit of backing up and maneuvering for Static Discharge's cone... blast/punch the rest that remain.
Most fights called for one or two greens, but some of them required none. I think I needed to use a break free twice.
Again... if I had used snipes, pulls, attacked from range, other inspirations... or, you know, teamed or lowered the difficulty, this would be a much easier task. That's the problem though, isn't it... It is an easy task on a Scrapper, Brute, Stalker... and people judge the Blaster solo experience by those standards.
Me? I like my health dropping to a sliver before the fight is done!
I almost /demorecorded the missions, but opted not to. Perhaps I'll do that and offer it up for any who are interested.
I'm sure people will say that +0 x3 isn't good enough anyway, when they can do better on >fill in the blank Fortunately, for me, I happen to enjoy the pace and the content the way I've been playing my blaster.
EDIT: Also, I'm thinking about taking some other Blasters out for similar types of a spin, just to see... because I know (and love) that E3s are altogether different!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
As much as I love energy/energy, when this was debated way back when I was forced to conclude that, even before I had significant experience with the combination, the case for electric/electric was strong enough that it probably held the advantage over energy/energy as a blapper combination back then. Its probably the second easiest blapper to make work in some fashion, after Sonic/Energy.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
EDIT: Also, I'm thinking about taking some other Blasters out for similar types of a spin, just to see... because I know (and love) that E3s are altogether different!
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Quote:
You know its funny i actualy thought about this set a while ago....on a blaster and how it would work.|
Originally Posted by Simian_Stalker
Anything new on this topic? Any word from the Devs if this is coming?
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Of course it wouldnt be a straight port over.....as it would have to be a Blaster set and follow that pattern.
So if it was a blaster sort of set, then we all know we would get shurikens...exploding and normal, probably either a cone shuriken set or I was thinking why not other powers....like Blinding powder from the stalker nijutsu set...except on a blaster it would do damage...i dont think they should have the straight placate power....but they shouldhave some bombs they can throw too....not sure what the last power should be......but i am hoping it would be a crashless nuke...so tired of crashing nukes.....would either be a super point blank with a big area of effect sword thing....or maybe just a few hundred shurikens or knives flying at the enemies in a cone....or maybe a big bomb thrown that looks like a classic bomb with a lit wick on it..that blows up after a second when it lands.
Also I was thinking...why not give blasters a secondary set of some kind related to the martial arts too.....that might have a few select sword attacks but also why not give them the placate power...the smoke bomb and maybe give them at level 6 there own version of hide......it would cost energy unlike stalker hide but work kind of similar to the stalker version as in it would give low defenses.
I mean they dont have to do tons of armor types.....but they could add in some of the more interesting utilty powers.
So that with both sets you would be more or less a Ninja like Blaster.
You would be the blaster that throws the shurikens and beats things at range but also have some powers to compliment the entire staying hidden and such things.....
Maybe also have a Toggle only for blasters that when active it makes all your attacks also get a 10% bonus damage of toxic damage(i.e. poison or acid that does a DOT) since its a toggle it would cost energy but would be as effective as if you took the leader ship pool and got the power that gave you more damage...in this case it would be a blaster only effect and not cover the entire team...thus the reason it would be a toxic effect and a DOT to make up fo rthe fact you spend energy and are not buffing the entire team.
Lets see...i think that blaster should get better caltrops on this set too...to set it apart from what is already gotten...maybe they should explode after a bit.
Seriously I personaly dont see why blasters shouldnt get a set like this....
As players we all know that each power set in the game should have some similar themed set in all archtypes so that we can do more interesting things...
So Martial Arts for Blasters sounds like a neat Idea in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You are in error.
Hatred666's had 1 single target KB, 2 single target stuns, 1 AoE slow/damage/fear patch, 1 AoE high chance KD, 1 ranged AoE Dmg, 1 Cone AoE mez, Build Up, and 1 +speed/recovery power. Mine had 1 single target KB, 2 single target stuns, 1 AoE high chance KD, 1 single target immob/slow, Build Up, and 1 passive +recovery power (and I've already acknowledged one of the attacks from mine could be dropped for another utility power). Simian_Stalker's had 1 single target KB, 3 single target disorients, 1 single target hold, 1 +end reduction power, 1 +spd/rech power, Build Up, and either a +special power or an AoE high chance KD. I love /Fire and I'd hope it would continue to far out-damage an /MA set, because any good /MA design would have tons of utility, just like all of the proposed powersets I listed. |
As opposed to fire ?
immobilize
AoE mez/damage aura
Endurance recovery power
Minor Mez protection power (Not as useful as it used to be but still nice)
Self damage to hit buff ?
I would really hope a MA set would at least be more of a Ninjutsu/MA light.
Give it a web grenade, smoke bomb placate or caltrops, some sort of self heal or defense buff (cloaking device (but better)/or the retsu), then the usual build up and whatever attacks seem appropriate.
You could kill a flock of birds with one stone. People that want a weapons/devices blaster but don't want to play devices would have a good set. It would also be good for people that want Not weapon/Martial arts types, or for the weapon/martial arts types.
Electric: My "six second" estimate (actually, normally I say "Four second half life" ) is based on playing Fire/Electric, Fire/Energy, and elec/Fire blasters (my first three), generally from level 1-49, mostly in sizeable groups.
End drain has a vicious all-or-nothing aspect to it-if you tried +1 [so some groups would be +2] I would expect to see a lot of sudden failures.
I chose +1/x3 as something that "nearly anything" would be able to solo at reasonable speed at level 38: Tanks, Scrappers, Brutes, most Corruptors and most Defenders -as far as my personal play experience. I imagine nearly all Controllers and Dominators and EATs would be able to solo that. (38 chosen because the hold in question is a L38 power.) FF, Sonic and Empathy defenders would have issues- FF mostly a question of speed.
If I was comparing to L38 "Scrapper, Brute, Stalker... " I would have picked +2/x4 because I consider that a practical minimum for those AT's. Well, maybe not Stalkers, I haven't touched a Stalker for a long time and I just don't know. Heck, at L38 most Tankers can finish a fight in pretty respectable time.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Ok, just read through the whole thread and thought I'd add my thoughts on the various things said here.
First, I'll state that of my 5 50's so far, my first 3 were Blasters. Neo-Chamber: Energy/Energy/Force, Tess Trueshot: Archery/Energy/Munitions and Psi-Fire Fire/Mental/Flame. All 3 play VERY differently. Tess is an extreme range damage dealer, with a few melee attacks as a 'DIE NOW!' option on those things that get too close, but generally doen't survive very long in melee range. Neo, though only taking 1 melee attack from /Energy is much more suited to extended melee encounters thanks to his many defensive pool/epic/accolade defensive toggles and clicks. Psi is my, well, I suppose Blapper would be the best description, though I like to think of her as my Mezzing-Blaster-Tank. That being said, I still don't concider Blasters as a Melee AT. Simply because, being able to to attack at melee range, sometimes effectively, doesn't equate to being a melee fighter.
I do though, like the idea of a MA themed secondary for Blasters. Or at least something more Natural origin, and all 3 ideas shown here each have thier appeal and seem to have been very well thought out. For a long time I've had to shelf ideas for Natural origin BlasterS I've had because of the lack of secondaries for more Natural origin toons. For a long time we only had Archery and Assault Rifle for primary options and the addition of Dual Pistols was great. Beam Rifle is the newest primary that could posibly used for a Natural, but still leans more to the tech side of things. Then there was the secondary choices, which have always been either the tech heavy Devices or Energy. And though I love the mixed bag there is in Energy, it can get a little boring working with the same powers over and over again. So, a melee heavy secondary MA set for Blasters would seem fine to me, as it would give more of a balance to the Devices secondary with all it's utility powers. I suppose another option for a Natural Blaster secondary whould be a Trick Arrow like set with a few of the soft control attacks from TA combined with some self buffs and some new arrow melee attacks (think Legolas-like attacks from the LotR movies).
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Fire Manipulation does not have an AoE mez. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
As opposed to fire ?
immobilize AoE mez/damage aura Endurance recovery power Minor Mez protection power (Not as useful as it used to be but still nice) Self damage to hit buff ? |
In survivability terms, Fire Manipulation has the lowest amount of survivability tools of any existing Blaster manipulation set, and probably has a lower amount of survivability tools than any manipulation set ever proposed by anyone. Historically, its been consistently considered the most problematic blaster powerset, primary or secondary, for that reason.
As to Martial Arts as the basis for a Blaster secondary, I have often wondered if the reason we don't have that yet is because the devs have shelved the idea until they can come up with an idea for its ranged analog. They've ported primaries without analogous secondaries (i.e. Archery) but given the devs' general attachment to thematics, I can't help but think that a Martial Arts secondary would be greatly accelerated if there was a thematically related Blaster primary, whatever that might be (and yes, I know anyone can make a case for it being one of the existing primaries, like dual pistols or archery).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Hot feet is an AoE mag 3 afraid that can be left running.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Fire Manipulation does not have an AoE mez.
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I'd go into the rest but its nothing but your unsupported opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, but absent facts to support it there is nothing to talk about.
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I don't believe I have ever heard of anyone refer to Afraid as a mez before. Until now.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Hot feet is an AoE mag 3 afraid that can be left running.
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Quote:
| I'd go into the rest but its nothing but your unsupported opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, but absent facts to support it there is nothing to talk about. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
He probably won't notice that knife sticking out of his kidney until sometime tomorrow.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'll leave it to others to decide if my perspective on hypothetical powersets is worth discussion.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
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Hatred666's had 1 single target KB, 2 single target stuns, 1 AoE slow/damage/fear patch, 1 AoE high chance KD, 1 ranged AoE Dmg, 1 Cone AoE mez, Build Up, and 1 +speed/recovery power.
Mine had 1 single target KB, 2 single target stuns, 1 AoE high chance KD, 1 single target immob/slow, Build Up, and 1 passive +recovery power (and I've already acknowledged one of the attacks from mine could be dropped for another utility power).
Simian_Stalker's had 1 single target KB, 3 single target disorients, 1 single target hold, 1 +end reduction power, 1 +spd/rech power, Build Up, and either a +special power or an AoE high chance KD.
I love /Fire and I'd hope it would continue to far out-damage an /MA set, because any good /MA design would have tons of utility, just like all of the proposed powersets I listed.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.