Two powers that USED to be cool
By
4_Thirty_5,
Posted on: 2012-04-30 14:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Sands of Mu is a melee cone. Anything beyond the first is BONUS.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
um, no
sands of mu umbral torrent many if not most cones have a hard time getting a lot of foes in the area if they are spread out. if my most you mean fireball and rain powers, then use but pbaoe's and cones - no |
Nightfall and Terrafy are easy to line up - and nightfall, last I checked, was narrower than Umbral torrent.
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Know what is just as bad? A WS or PB knocking them all over the place right after the tank has gathered them. This makes me mad as a scrapper, I can only imagine how a tank, controller, or Dom feels.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
It makes me cranky to see the Immobs go out the instant we see spawns, before the Tanker can gather them, freezing them in their (widely separated) places.
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Amen!!!!
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Originally Posted by tenzhi
the power i used to like was instant healing. With it as an always-on toggle i could largely ignore the clicks in regeneration, which made it feel more like regeneration and less like self-only empathy.
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KM has the same crappy power, but at a lower level. It was a bad idea in claws, and it was a bad idea in KM.
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Originally Posted by _Psi_
On another power. I hate, hate hate hate hatehatehatehatehatehate Claws' Shockwave. Who's idea was it to have a cone THAT massive do massive knockback on a melee set? It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't use it in their normal attack chain like it was totally okay to toss every enemy out of AoEs/Taunts/etc. >.<
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I think it is more likely that powers like elude and other redundant crash powers will get adjusted before we see IOs changing. It would be less work to make those powers worth taking, than it would be to go in and try to adjust every IO set, or the IO system. Also buffing powers like elude or other crash powers is going to be seen as positive change by the majority of the community, where as a nerf to IOs would be a bad bad thing in the eyes of the majority of players.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I smell Inventions Diversification at some point, then.
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You can't make all the people happy with every change, but you can attempt to piss the least amount of people off.
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Do you remember ED and GDN?|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
...<snip>...where as a nerf to IOs would be a bad bad thing in the eyes of the majority of players.
You can't make all the people happy with every change, but you can attempt to piss the least amount of people off. |
Player input means very little when the change is already in the works or according to the "master plan".
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If you're implying that melee cones are balanced around the expectation that you'll hit a single target and anything else is a bonus, you are sorely mistaken. The cost and recharge of melee cones, which inform both DPS and EPS, are balanced around the cone formula, which takes into account maximum targets, cone angle and cone range. There are a small handful of short cone powers balanced as single-target attacks (Dark Maul is one, Sands of Mu is not by virtue of being unenhanceable), but these are the exception, not the rule.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Sands of Mu is a melee cone. Anything beyond the first is BONUS.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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At least those do damage. Now compare these to the various Hand Clap clones (that, Thunder Clap, Lightning Clap, etc.) which do no damage, cause massive scatter and only impart a short-duration, Mag 2 (minion-only) stun at a vastly reduced power accuracy and a significantly increased endurance cost. Essentially, I'm spending a power pick and spending a lot of slots to be able to use a power which, even at the best of times, will push enemies away from my Invincibility/Rise to the Challenge/Against All Odds while doing precious little to them. And I'm supposed to want this?|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
KM has the same crappy power, but at a lower level. It was a bad idea in claws, and it was a bad idea in KM.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I think it is more likely that powers like elude and other redundant crash powers will get adjusted before we see IOs changing. It would be less work to make those powers worth taking, than it would be to go in and try to adjust every IO set, or the IO system. Also buffing powers like elude or other crash powers is going to be seen as positive change by the majority of the community, where as a nerf to IOs would be a bad bad thing in the eyes of the majority of players.
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The last thing I want out of the game is to worry about the super hero equivalent of Gear Score.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Im sad it took this long for this to be said.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
You know what power used to be really cool? Energy Transfer, then it got bludgeoned to death with a nerf bat from hell.
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Speaking of what things were meant to be, a friend of mine found an old City of Heroes press video which has Jack Emmert describing what feels like an entirely different game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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"You don't get locked down in combat."|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Speaking of what things were meant to be, a friend of mine found an old City of Heroes press video which has Jack Emmert describing what feels like an entirely different game.
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Sigh... I want /that/ game. I like CoH, but sometimes it just feels like my job is to stand still and press buttons.
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The thing with the immobilize powers is they're a matter of skill. There are situations where they can be used well, and situations where they mess things up. My Ice Dominator makes frequent use of his immobilize--it's slotted for duration rather than damage, and allows rooted enemies to fall on their face once -kb wears off. Casting is always a bit of a calculated risk.
But then there are those Controllers and Dominators...
Let's set up the scene: there's me dancing on an Ice Slick surrounded by a bunch of +4s. I am a level 51 perma-Dom with a 2 billion influence build. In behind me lumbers the level 27 Fire Controller who got the mercy spot on the team. She uses her signature move: Fire Cages with a side of Hot Feet sans Flashfire. Apparantly it hadn't occured to her that the Ice Slick was for her benefit and not mine, or that I am just the sort of Ice Dominator who is okay with letting her die if it means I can not die too.
So the thing is I am okay with other Controllers and Doms who immobilize and can handle what results. Some people just spam the immob because it recharges quickly though, and don't really watch to see what their teammates are doing. In particular, I've been more or less soloing groups and had someone jump in behind me and start immobing everything. (The worst offenders, for some reason, are often Earth Controllers, which I really can't explain). This often leads to me running off to the next group and leaving them to fate. If they can handle it, thats fine, if they can't that's fine too because at least they are out of my way. 
I used to think Hurricane was hot. Early, when my friends and I first fought against the Clockwork King, I held him in a corner and the KB proc'd so often he wasn't able to get up. Teammates pounded on him until endurance ran out, rested, then came back and pounded on him more.
Now, people yell at me because of the KB. ._.
Also, I have to agree with Granite Armor being tough. I can't play my beloved tank unless I'm with a Kin who can give me boosts.
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It's quite clear a lot of people in this thread have never actually played endgame IO builds, or are playing them against legacy enemy groups at low difficulties. I've heard "Not enough challenge!" sour grapes from people who can't afford such builds or don't know how to design them often enough. Obviously if you only ever kill council america on Standard Controller Farm Settings you'll find the game unchallenging to play.
Modern enemy groups (incarnate BP, IDF, Talons of Vengeance) have a much more versatile threat profile with exotic damage, buff/debuff and varying tohit. I'm soloing my fire/kin through DA arcs at 53/x8 with bosses and I need to be able to tell, at a moment's glance, which enemies in the spawn are threatening my defenses, neutralize them in other ways and prioritize which ones to take out first, changing tactics on the fly as spikes of damage leak through the softcapped defenses. Exactly how this is less challenging than the level 20 controller running in circles trying to stack confuse on the snake boss chasing her, I fail to see.
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Hurricane really annoys me, as well. There are two things in this game that I will never get, and they're PBAoE knockback and PBAoE repel. Hurricane has a very nice debuff, which I would really like to apply to my enemies, only I can't because the power keeps pushing them out of range. Yes, I guess I could corner enemies with it, but this is rarely reliable even with the much broader front of Force Bubble, let alone the much more curved front of the considerably smaller Hurricane.|
Originally Posted by 4_Thirty_5
I used to think Hurricane was hot. Early, when my friends and I first fought against the Clockwork King, I held him in a corner and the KB proc'd so often he wasn't able to get up. Teammates pounded on him until endurance ran out, rested, then came back and pounded on him more.
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Like Hand Clap, these powers just seem to cause more problems than they solve in almost every case I've tried to use them. And I'm the kind of guy who LIKES Dimension Shift and Detention Field.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I miss old-school Whirlwind - how am I supposed to lockdown Paragon Protectors now?
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I miss pre-ragdoll Whirlwind. I still remember when I first saw the power and the character using it had his arms straight out to the sides as he spun and I said "I gotta have it!". Now they just kind of limply hang and it's just not cool.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
I miss old-school Whirlwind - how am I supposed to lockdown Paragon Protectors now?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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This. Oh so much this. WHAT is with the Earth controllers and their group immob?! I asked one player and he responded with..."I'm lazy" Really now? |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The thing with the immobilize powers is they're a matter of skill. There are situations where they can be used well, and situations where they mess things up. My Ice Dominator makes frequent use of his immobilize--it's slotted for duration rather than damage, and allows rooted enemies to fall on their face once -kb wears off. Casting is always a bit of a calculated risk.
But then there are those Controllers and Dominators... Let's set up the scene: there's me dancing on an Ice Slick surrounded by a bunch of +4s. I am a level 51 perma-Dom with a 2 billion influence build. In behind me lumbers the level 27 Fire Controller who got the mercy spot on the team. She uses her signature move: Fire Cages with a side of Hot Feet sans Flashfire. Apparantly it hadn't occured to her that the Ice Slick was for her benefit and not mine, or that I am just the sort of Ice Dominator who is okay with letting her die if it means I can not die too. So the thing is I am okay with other Controllers and Doms who immobilize and can handle what results. Some people just spam the immob because it recharges quickly though, and don't really watch to see what their teammates are doing. In particular, I've been more or less soloing groups and had someone jump in behind me and start immobing everything. (The worst offenders, for some reason, are often Earth Controllers, which I really can't explain). This often leads to me running off to the next group and leaving them to fate. If they can handle it, thats fine, if they can't that's fine too because at least they are out of my way. |
I agree with the melee people (It's going to snow) sometimes it's ok to wait until the mob is bunched up. A lot of the control sets get in trouble when the mob is spread out...unless you are playing Earth, Illusion or Plant Control.
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Hurricane is useful for when you're teamed with trollers who spam their AOE immobilization. Repel is the only thing that is going to move NPCs locked into placed by something like Stone Cages, Repel moves things rather slowly so it's not hard to bunch up mobs to help facilitate AOE attacks and Melee auras.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Hurricane has a very nice debuff, which I would really like to apply to my enemies, only I can't because the power keeps pushing them out of range.
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I also remember the really crappy dev team we had back then... Currently this game has the best Powers team it has ever had. Because all of them played the game before they worked on the game. |
Originally Posted by Gunstar
Do you remember ED and GDN?
Player input means very little when the change is already in the works or according to the "master plan". |
They also all still enjoy playing the game.
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I couldn't agree more. I often wonder if the original devs made powers like that because they knew we had to skip something. So they figured they would throw some poo into every set so the decision of what to skip was not too hard. It is like confront on scrappers, I am sure someone will argue how awesome it is. Let's be honest though, most serious scrappers skip it. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
At least those do damage. Now compare these to the various Hand Clap clones (that, Thunder Clap, Lightning Clap, etc.) which do no damage, cause massive scatter and only impart a short-duration, Mag 2 (minion-only) stun at a vastly reduced power accuracy and a significantly increased endurance cost. Essentially, I'm spending a power pick and spending a lot of slots to be able to use a power which, even at the best of times, will push enemies away from my Invincibility/Rise to the Challenge/Against All Odds while doing precious little to them. And I'm supposed to want this?
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The over-abundance of defence Invention Set bonuses is not just a problem for T9 God Mode powers, especially since so many of them don't even grant defence. It's a problem with primarily defence-based sets in general, which includes things like Super Reflexes, Ninjutsu, Energy Aura and so forth. I call this power creep because as I step from the regular game into Dark Astoria, suddenly I'm expected to have far more defence than I do, because I'm expected to have defence-granting Inventions Set bonuses. If my defences aren't based around defence, that's fine, but if Defence is all I have, that's a problem. It's essentially the same old problem of higher-level enemies gaining higher to-hit which Arcana fought tooth and nail to get changed into getting accuracy buffs, instead. The last thing I want out of the game is to worry about the super hero equivalent of Gear Score. |
I also see where you are coming from about stepping into DA. Where you look at 45% def and it all of a sudden is not up to snuff. This bothers me none at all, and I am gonna tell you why. (I wanted that to sound like a sales pitch
) For years players on the Scrapper boards have been arguing/stating that the only good way to build a scrapper was to go for the soft cap in +def. I have argued against this on multiple occasions because in many cases it gimps a toon. When you have to use 3 sets of KC's (that max out at lvl 35) to do this, then you are making a sacrifice. A sacrifice you don't have to make if you build for what the set is designed for (regen or resist).
Now all of a sudden there are /DA toons getting beat to death in DA (funny that) because instead of going for damage and resistance, they went for the def soft cap of 45%, and all of a sudden 45% is not enough.
I have EA and SR toons that have defense in the 60's and sacrificed nothing to get it. They do fine in DA. My KM/ElA scrapper has 60+ resistance to everything except psi and toxic. He does fine in DA. My toons are doing fine because I stuck to what they were designed for.
I blame this on the original devs for not making resistance and defense equal in design, and on players for taking advantage of +def. What needs to happen is Resistance needs to be made just as valuable (and easy) to build for as +def.
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Hurricane was fine until PvP concerns prompted the developers to nerf the frequency of the kb/repel pulses. Stalkers had NO way to take down an experienced stormer. There was talk of jousting, but my stormer was never 'jousted' in a PvP zone prior to the nerf.|
Originally Posted by 4_Thirty_5
I used to think Hurricane was hot. Early, when my friends and I first fought against the Clockwork King, I held him in a corner and the KB proc'd so often he wasn't able to get up. Teammates pounded on him until endurance ran out, rested, then came back and pounded on him more.
Now, people yell at me because of the KB. ._. Also, I have to agree with Granite Armor being tough. I can't play my beloved tank unless I'm with a Kin who can give me boosts. |
On the other hand, tornado is much tamer than it used to be. It has a tether that prevents the pet from aggroing every Circle of Thorns on an outdoor map. Tornado is definitely the MoG spawn killer even now.
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I remember that variations on ED and variations of the GDN were suggested by players long before they were implemented by the devs to address what were perceived at the time to be nearly fatal flaws in the game's PvE balance.
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Originally Posted by Gunstar
Do you remember ED and GDN?
Player input means very little when the change is already in the works or according to the "master plan". |
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I had a stone/something (don't remember now) WAY back, around i4, on a trial account, and I didn't take Taunt originally, but people kept saying, "Gotta get Taunt", "You need Taunt". I didn't, they did. Never had any use for it soloing, as I often did, and, since I almost never fight above even level mobs, for me, it was unecessary, unless I was in a team. Immersion? Nope, never felt immeresed, don't care about it, so no problem there. lol
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Taunt.
When I first got it...it was very cool...being able to control the agro like that...keeping all the enemies attention. Then, after many missions, arcs, TFs, etc...it became the single most boring power. I still use it...as it is still extremely useful (mechanically)...but I absolutely hate it. It's such a ridiculous power...terribly immersion breaking...but unfortunately a necessary evil for those wanting to tank. |
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If I wanted to PvP, I would just run outside and gank people with rocks.
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