Let's chat seriously about PC Animals...
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2012-04-12 13:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Different fighting style and weapons have different advantages and disadvantages. They don't all have to be equivalent in all aspects to be viable combat tactics. I wouldn't be able to say what advantages a dog swordsman would have over some human swordsmen since, well, there aren't any dog swordsmen to compare to so it's existence in the real world is moot. By extension, a Beam Rifle wouldn't do well because we don't actually see them around.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
No matter how you swing it [do pardon the pun] a dog's neck has nowhere near the range possessed by the human arm. If this was an idea that would actually do well, there would be people schooling k-9 forces to fight with swords in their mouths right now.
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| But it wouldn't and they don't. Especially with nine-foot swords *sword grounds in the dirt, first swing*. I should not have to explain this, it should be obvious! |
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Yeah, dropping in to say that since titan weapons the ship of 'can a real person use that?' has long since sailed. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Do people even use nine-foot swords? AFAIK, the average sword probably doesn't exceed 3ft very often...and I'd have sworn that scales by height. Shorter people generally use shorter swords. |
Hell, my angel statue character uses a sword made of fire. That makes about as much sense as a raver dog.
Also, now that I ponder it, I've seen characters in Legion of Superheroes that make less sense than a raver dog fighting crime.
And I like saying raver dog a lot.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
nine foot swords were ceremonial, not for combat.
a normal sword weighed 3 lbs, a two handed sword weighed 5-6 pounds
humans do naturally know how to use swords, clubs, etc. They swing their arm and the weapon acts as a lever to increase the power of the swing as well as providing a harder striking surface. Humans can learn to do other things with swords.
Dogs wielding swords in their mouths is foolish because it does not amplify the animal's strength, it would be a very weak action given the leverage of swinging a sword with your mouth.
Dogs having steel claws or teeth makes sense.
But let's be serious here, since the OP wants us to be. Anyone claiming that a winged pixie summoning walking plants and her ally a radioactive mutant that can teleport and give people shields of fire would have their credibility and realism taken away by a dog wielding a sword in its mouth really needs to reconsider their position.
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Clearly not a wide enough loop.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
My interests are not limited to "silver age American comic books," far from it. Way too much of an over-generalization. No offense, but you really have no idea what my comics-related interests are; they swing a wide loop.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Really? Nice try. We have a game called "City of Heroes/Villains" yet it does not have a genre or style inherent in its very creation? I'm going to let that lie riiiiiight there.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I'm not seeing rainbow doggie-girls wearing bikinis as being thematically appropriate, so we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I really don't care about what the single player you, Samuel Tow, does with your characters. You are just one person. What concerns me is a potential flood of rainbow-colored dog-girls with 1000 body-piercings, anime hair, bikinis, leg warmers etc. That would not be appropriate with the theme [the word I dared to say! yes! I said it!], with the THEME of City of Heroes.
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Also, City of Heroes has a much broader theme than you seem willing to accept. Or have you forgotten the numerous werewolves, the demons, all the animal transformation powers and so forth? The worst thing you can do to a theme is to use it as a limiting factor. And yes, I would like to see a Tolkein-esque fantasy world that had access to firearms and space ships. Maybe not specifically in Lord of the Rings as that's based around an established franchise the game can't afford to backfill, but City of Heroes ISN'T based on a franchise which originated in books, movies or interpretative dance. The game was born with its mythos and it's the game that's the source of canon. If Doc Aeon wanted to have an alternate dimension of sentient anthropomorphic racoons invade Paragon City (and kill everybody), then that would be canon.
And for the record, it wouldn't be in the slightest out of place next to floating eyeballs that bite invading from another dimension, the occasional player's lack of tolerance notwithstanding.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
1. Five-fingered hands that possess opposable thumbs, enabling us to grip objects
2. Long arms with 360 degrees of motion, enabling us to swing weapons. |
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
A wolf with a sword in his mouth that is actually longer than his body-length is a logical fail for me, since the instant his short little neck tried to swing it, the weapon would ground itself. I am willing to suspend disbelief only so far.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Humans have 2 basic attack moves that are instinctive - the thrust, which ranges from a warning push to a full on punch using the explosive power of the arm muscles, and the swipe, which ranges from a slap to a swinging punch that replaces the explosive muscle power with the twisting momentum we can generate from our unique body shape.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Humans, naturally, do not know how to use swords.
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A tool with sharp edeges and a sharp point is just an extension of these 2 movements, reducing the user's chances of hurting themselves and increasing the damage done to the target - the thrust becomes a stab, and the swipe becomes a slash.
Animals don't have the body shape or movement ability to do the same.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Warwolves, like most furries, are just basically humans with animal extras - they have human skeletons and human movements, so they can do the same things as humans.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So who says wolves in Paragon City can't possess both? War Wolves certainly don't seem to have any of those limitations.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Humans have no innate knowledge to use swords and clubs. It's all learned behavior as you can't say any 'stick' using animal knows how to wield it as a weapon...because that extends to things like anteaters, finches and mice. Actually, go ahead and say that. Since humans 'innately' know how to swing their arms around with a stick in it, I guess we need bird models with fencing swords since they 'innately' know how to stab things with pointy sticks to get at things.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
humans do naturally know how to use swords, clubs, etc. They swing their arm and the weapon acts as a lever to increase the power of the swing as well as providing a harder striking surface. Humans can learn to do other things with swords.
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| Dogs wielding swords in their mouths is foolish because it does not amplify the animal's strength, it would be a very weak action given the leverage of swinging a sword with your mouth. |
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Humans have 2 basic attack moves that are instinctive - the thrust, which ranges from a warning push to a full on punch using the explosive power of the arm muscles, and the swipe, which ranges from a slap to a swinging punch that replaces the explosive muscle power with the twisting momentum we can generate from our unique body shape.
A tool with sharp edeges and a sharp point is just an extension of these 2 movements, reducing the user's chances of hurting themselves and increasing the damage done to the target - the thrust becomes a stab, and the swipe becomes a slash. Animals don't have the body shape or movement ability to do the same. |
But then, with your expert knowledge on human instinct and biology, I'd assume you've extensively studied the movements of animals as well so know exactly how they function, their behavior and inability to use tools and how that somehow relates to a game where movement and physics are poignantly adhered to with precise detail.
You do realize that the "rainbow big boobed doggie girl" thing is a horribly disingenuous strawman right? Cause none of the proponents are talking about that.
Oh, and that you can do that already.
Also this thread makes Hank McCoy sad.
Ok, while i still would be incredibly surprised if this were to coem to pass as anything other than a shape shift option because adapting new body types tot he existing general weapon/power choice would be a ludicrous amount of work. there exists another option for weapon using animals. in the game okami (and its swquel okamiden, both games you should have played) they detached the weapon entirely from the character and simply had the weapons float freely over the character and move in distinct animations that would not be as limited by the grip in the mouth thing. it worked for the game and, if the devs decided this was a worthwhile investment of resources, could be used here. of course, id be busy spending my multiple loottery winnings treating my wounds from lightning strikes and shark attacks that i would have suffered in a situation of such probability 
oh, and leo, gg has mentioned several times she trained in martial arts, its why her character is what she is. never mentioned the style, other than to suggest it was "kung fu" which is kinda broad, ill admit
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That's just how those arguments usually go. "The game will be overrun with X" arguments, where X is something wholly outlandish, tend to boil down to a person really disliking something and not being tolerant of other people enjoying it.|
Originally Posted by SolidCold
You do realize that the "rainbow big boobed doggie girl" thing is a horribly disingenuous strawman right? Cause none of the proponents are talking about that.
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Personally, though, I don't see a reason to mess with the straw man. If "rainbow big-boobed doggie girl" is what I wanted, then that's what I'll have, and I will be perfectly within the game's established canon, which has a dead big-boobied dead woman with a fireplace on her head. Once we acknowledge that our game has THAT, we've pretty much thrown moderation, reservation and "theme" out the window.
And I'm all the happier for it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ah, so evidently there is no such thing as a genre. This is another one we're going to have to agree to disagree on, because I just can't waste time on arguing that all concepts are valid in all possible settings. This would mean it would be ok to remake "Gone With The Wind" with Transformer Robots setting fire to Atlanta. While it is fun to imagine Aunt Pittypat running screaming across the burning landscape in fear of Decepticon.... its not something that works well for me thematically. Do excuse that naughty "theme" word again.| Tow: Nope. Neither "heroes" nor "villains" have any inherent genre, because they're concepts of the behaviour of intelligent creatures. |
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| Because I heard the same tripe you're delivering now when the Animal Pack was released, and aside from Day 1 of it being on the market, I've not seen any great concentration of animal-head people. |
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| So who says wolves in Paragon City can't possess both? War Wolves certainly don't seem to have any of those limitations. |
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| someone else: There aren't any instinctual attacks except the very same exhibited by other bipedal animals and it usually involves scratching. Thrusts and punches are learned behaviors and movements because they aren't something you can do without injuring yourself. |
I think a half-hour spent in any preschool would amply show otherwise.
Next up: Ashley Wilkes goes to Middle Earth and barks rockets, stay tuned.
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The problem is that Diabolique actually looks good. Sparkledogs.... not so much. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Personally, though, I don't see a reason to mess with the straw man. If "rainbow big-boobed doggie girl" is what I wanted, then that's what I'll have, and I will be perfectly within the game's established canon, which has a dead big-boobied dead woman with a fireplace on her head. Once we acknowledge that our game has THAT, we've pretty much thrown moderation, reservation and "theme" out the window.
And I'm all the happier for it. |
I would like to get a closer look at the actual Diabolique, but she's so obliterated by a million powers firing at once that she's dead in ten seconds. Sad, because she is epic.
Which a rainbow big boobed doggie girl will nevah be
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You do know Disney has had superhero genre stuff for years, right? There's been an italian Paperinik comic for quite a while.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
.....'Cause that's JUST what this game needs, references to "Disney verses."
I'm not really coming up with any other Marvel/DC halfbreeds other than Tigra and the truly craptacular Beta Ray Bill when casting my mind over those specific universe, but if you say there's a metric ton of them, whatevs. Demanding player access to the CoX version of Beta Ray Bill strikes me as making about as much sense as going over to Lord of the Rings Online and saying, "WHAT THIS GAME NEEDS IS SOME GIANT MORPHING ROBOTS, YEAH!" Lord of the Rings is fantasy, they have no robots that I know of and this would be inappropriate to expect giant robots in that MMO. [Analogies never work, yet I try anyways] We already have enough furries behaving disgracefully in Pocket D, can't see a need to make the problem worse. Be grateful we have as much furry stuff as we do. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Well I'd visit you...mostly to butter you up into giving me money.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
of course, id be busy spending my multiple loottery winnings treating my wounds from lightning strikes and shark attacks that i would have suffered in a situation of such probability
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oh, and leo, gg has mentioned several times she trained in martial arts, its why her character is what she is. never mentioned the style, other than to suggest it was "kung fu" which is kinda broad, ill admit
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Because I'm sure none of those tots ever played with one of these|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I think a half-hour spent in any preschool would amply show otherwise.
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or these
or these
or this
woops, how'd that get in there?
...Not real sure how your toy pictures are proving that scratching is instinctual behavior but punches are alien to the human mindset and must be learned, but go on with your bad self I guess.
The first natural human response to a physical attack is to start scratching? Really? What planet DO you hail from, anyways?
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What I get from those baby pictures is that he wants to play Diaper Man in the game.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
...Not real sure how your toy pictures are proving that scratching is instinctual behavior but punches are alien to the human mindset and must be learned, but go on with your bad self I guess.
The first natural human response to a physical attack is to start scratching? Really? What planet DO you hail from, anyways? |
Meanwhile, Sam wants to be Underdog. Which... actually, would be kinda cool really!
Oh yeah, and here's your dog with a sword in their mouth.
But as far as training dogs to look like they're deftly evading the swings of a human attacking them with a sword, this video is pretty cool!
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So.... sword fighting for dogs consists of tapping one's inner thigh with the sword to cue the dog to walk between one's legs. Or, having the dog jump the sword! EPIIIIICCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC !!!!!!!!11!!!1111eleventy-oneeeeee!|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
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[yeah, I'm not seeing it as a valid strategy in a real fight, sorry. Jumping the sword might save his life, meanwhile he inflicts no damage
)Ok, I still like the idea of Transformers burning down Civil War Atlanta a lot better.
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I'm sure it looks a lot better when performing on the set in full costume, and after lots of editing to dial all the swashbuckling action to eleven, lol.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
So.... sword fighting for dogs consists of tapping one's inner thigh with the sword to cue the dog to walk between one's legs. Or, having the dog jump the sword! EPIIIIICCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC !!!!!!!!11!!!1111eleventy-oneeeeee!
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(yeah, I'm not seeing it as a valid strategy in a real fight, sorry. Jumping the sword might save his life, meanwhile he inflicts no damage )
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Wait, how does 4-legged animal rig = furry? I'm confused.
Also, I kinda hate furries, but I'll be damned if some of the people in this thread aren't making me want to agree with my boy Leo. Okami had a wolf fighting with a sword. Granted, it wasn't in the mouth, but I don't see people saying that was a dumb game. And if they did say it was a dumb game, well, that's probably cause they think Call of Duty is the bee's knees.
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It shouldn't - furries are normally hybrids - they have human body shapes and animal heads, and act like humans.
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Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
Wait, how does 4-legged animal rig = furry?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Unless we have a smart animal that can actually create things, it isn't plausible to design a tool they can or will use without teaching them. Creatures like that tend to settle with using their environment, if that. There are articles all over the net about animals using tools, from birds, dolphins, monkeys, elephants, octopuses, even mice. They're tools found in their environment chosen for tasks they aren't equipped naturally to deal with. They did not design these tools, nor have they exhibited the intelligence to.
So, without prior examples of such, it'd be a stretch to expect the devs to design tools or weapons an animal would design for themselves as the devs are not (as far as I know) animals.