Quote:
How does it make MB redundant? Achilles' Heel proc isn't unique, and unless you have it in almost every attack it doesn't lose a lot of its effectiveness.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Water Spout is the best Epic power for Stalkers, period. AND it takes that proc, making MB all but redundant aside from it's... animation?
|
Quote:
| Note: Fireball is good too but not nearly as versatile as good ol' Water Spout. |
Also, keep in mind getting Fireball also gives you Melt Armor. While it doesn't come close to contributing as much ST DPS as Water Spout(maybe with teams/leagues lacking -res), it still helps out more than other ancillaries for DPS.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Water Spout is a pretty deceptively large AoE, but it is not Burst Damage. Also, the Heel proc is unique because it applies a Buff to the target that applies a Debuff that specially says "DOES NOT STACK". The other benefit from having MB with Heel and Spout with Heel is having it up more often.
Melt Armor is a joke and gets resisted to pitiful (Read: 2%) Levels.
Fireball IS a good AoE but I've accepted that killing bosses instantly and then sweeping the minions tends to be a lot more effective than throwing a fireball. Fireball really only shines in Kinetic Melee, in my opinion, but it's still a Good Power.
Water Spout is, again, deceptively AoE and a Boss/AV Killer. Yum. It also is the single-most damaging increasing Epic/PAtron pool power in the game for Stalkers. No, Melt Armor does NOT compare. This is a fact on the forums. Water Spout adds significant damage due to Reactive procs + It's natural damage + proccing.
No debating that, so next...
Using MB with SR, PS, and AS over a chain with SS is... on base value, the DPA is about 10 higher? Maybe? But then if you factor in PPM Procs, Sky Splitter's chain pulls ahead. A lot. Because MB + PPMs = Nope.
Basically, for MB + Perfection 3 stacks versus Sky Splitter? The performance difference is minor (Aside from using SBE procs), that just use whichever chain LOOKS cooler.
Hint: Sky Splitter awsum.
Reppu, did you use waterspout on your pylon run? I find it to be the best all around as well, for the -res, AoE, single Target, knockup, etc.
I'm not sure about the chains avoiding sky splitter, as I didn't calculate them. I suppose ithey could be better, but the +damage from keeping form of the body three-stacked is not extreme... Someone test it and compare.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Yes, I did. I should have mentioned that, likely.
And I already did, Micro. The difference is about 10 DPS in favor of NOT using Sky Splitter, but that's up to variables. There's likely no difference; Sky Splitter at Combo 3 with Form of the Body is probably going to be superior, ESPECIALLY if you use SBE Procs.
Quote:
I did not use WaterSpout and I got basically the same time/dps as Reppu.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Yes, I did. I should have mentioned that, likely.
And I already did, Micro. The difference is about 10 DPS in favor of NOT using Sky Splitter, but that's up to variables. There's likely no difference; Sky Splitter at Combo 3 with Form of the Body is probably going to be superior, ESPECIALLY if you use SBE Procs. |
(again, chain being MB>SR>AS>SS with BuildUp used in place of MB, and with MB featuring SBE Mako and Achilles -RES, SR with Apoc proc and PVP proc, AS with Stalker proc and SBE Mako, and SS with Heca proc and SBE mako). I was T4 Degen vs. I think he had T4 Reactive both with T3 musc.
For me, Shadow Meld is much more useful on +4/+8 incarnate content than I have found waterspout - though I grant you waterspout makes better pylon dps. Being able to icap my S/L/Melee def every 15 seconds really helps when spawn-diving, especially in small teams or solo (for DA incarnate content and itrials) that don't have +def buffs.
Quote:
No, a unique proc is one that cannot be slotted more than once, namely purple procs.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Also, the Heel proc is unique because it applies a Buff to the target that applies a Debuff that specially says "DOES NOT STACK". The other benefit from having MB with Heel and Spout with Heel is having it up more often.
|
Does not stack with itself is different(it doesn't make it as useless as you think), and the benefit of having it up more often is big.
Also, I'm not convinced PPM's grant the SS chain such a big advantage. Sure you'll be using SS very often, but you'll also be using AS and IS(which happen to pack a PPM punch as well) less often.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
SS will ALWAYS proc a PPM, period. It never will not. (Unless you got terribly unlucky).
IS has nothing to do with the Stalker Forums, and is a terrible attack compared to the ST attacks.
AS will almost always proc a PPM, yes.
MB gains no advantages from PPMs.
SR has no PPMs to benefit from.
PS gets a small advantage from PPMs.
There is no way, and my calculations suggest this to be true, MB > SR > AS > PS can beat SR > PS > AS > SS, with PPM considerations.
If you are not using PPMs, MB > SR > AS> PS edges out by a fraction. You also lose SS's awesome animation and Burst Critical damage.
Even considering the power of AS, you don't edge out much at all. Average 12-15 DPS I think. Give or take a point, I'd have to double check my notes. Which quickly gets overcome by SS's superior PPM mechanics, so... I don't know.
In the end; Do whatever chain looks cooler. Form of the Body is overrated.
Quote:
Actually it has SBE Decimation Chance for Buildup. I originally slotted this but in my testing it was not firing nearly as much as I expected -- leading me to think maybe the PPM formula is different for it than for damage procs. And when it did fire, the buff duration was very short (5 secs?) so I unslotted it and went to the normal PVP proc.
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
S
SR has no PPMs to benefit from. |
Quote:
OK, I will try this and reslot to use PS instead of MB. I would have thought that the -RES from MB made a bigger difference (as it affects the rest of the chain). |
Originally Posted by Reppu
S
There is no way, and my calculations suggest this to be true, MB > SR > AS > PS can beat SR > PS > AS > SS, with PPM considerations. . |
But I think you are implying that the higher DPA of PS, plus higher chance to proc SBE dmg proc, will make PS edge ahead in DPS even considering the chain has no -RES?
(Or is it different in your case, where you are relying on Waterspout to deliver -RES)?
Quote:
Ah yes, my bad. I had to look the power names up and I confused IS with SR|
Originally Posted by Reppu
IS has nothing to do with the Stalker Forums, and is a terrible attack compared to the ST attacks.
|
Quote:
| There is no way, and my calculations suggest this to be true, MB > SR > AS > PS can beat SR > PS > AS > SS, with PPM considerations. |
MB = 3+1 = 4 = no benefit from PPM=Mako's*20% + Lady*20% + Achilles' =14.35+14.35= 28.7 + Achilles'
PS = 6+1.13= 7.13 = Mako's*37% + Hecatomb*33% = 26.55+35.34= 61.9
AS = 15+1 = 16 = Mako's*80% + SGuile = 57.4 + SGuile
SR = no ranged/KB PPM available for now = Apocalypse*33% + Glad*20% = 35.34+14.35 = 49.7
SS = 15+2.83 = 17.83 = Mako's*89%+ToD*74%=63.86+53.1= 117
Total proc damage
AS-SR-PS-MB = 57.4+61.9+49.7+28.7=197.7 damage
AS-SS-SR-PS = 57.4+117+61.9+49.7= 286 damage
Total animation time
AS-SR-PS-MB = 1.188+1.98+1.32+1.188= 5.68 seconds
AS-SS-SR-PS = 1.188+3.036+1.98+1.32= 7.54 seconds
Total proc DPS
AS-SR-PS-MB = 197.7/5.68= 34.8
AS-SS-SR-PS = 286/7.54 = 37.9
Apply the ~6.5% average -res onto the MB chain, and you get 37 DPS, that's 0.9 DPS less with procs alone. So yeah, PPM procs apparently don't make much of a difference between those chains. Either that or I really suck at math.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Isn't it more likely you slot Heca into SS because you want the full 5-set bonus from Heca set and it fits better in SS (dmg/recharge)?
I didn't realize ToD was avail in the store, I will check it out.
Quote:
I know it's not much, but I like having that additional +Resist to All.
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Do whatever chain looks cooler. Form of the Body is overrated.
|
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Indeed. Why would you waste 5 Slot Hecatomb into PS? That's a foolish decision.
In the end, MB > SR > AS > PS is probably just slightly better in overall DPS. Slightly.
SR > PS > AS > SS still benefits from far superior burst damage, procs better, and gives a global Resistance buff.
Do you want maybe 10 more DPS in exchange for 7.5% Resistance and vastly superior Burst?
That's the choice.
I wonder how the Great Proc Nerf is going to change this now 
Quote:
I thought you wanted as many PPM procs in SS as possible? You can get ED capped recharge and all your other needs filled with 4 slots, you just need enhancement boosters to get there.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Indeed. Why would you waste 5 Slot Hecatomb into PS? That's a foolish decision.
|
Quote:
| In the end, MB > SR > AS > PS is probably just slightly better in overall DPS. Slightly. |
AS = 307
SR(with Guile) = (110+200)/2 = 155
SR(without Guile) = 110
PS = 80.8
MB = 51.4
SS(with Guile) = (168.8+307)/2 + 30.7 = 268.6
Total Damage
AS-SR-PS-PS = 307+155+80.8+51.4 = 594.2
AS-SS-SR-PS = 307+268.6+110+80.8 = 766.4
Total Animation time
AS-SR-PS-MB = 1.188+1.98+1.32+1.188= 5.68 seconds
AS-SS-SR-PS = 1.188+3.036+1.98+1.32= 7.54 seconds
Total Attack DPS
AS-SR-PS-MB = 594.2/5.68 = 104.6
AS-SS-SR-PS = 766.4/7.54 = 101.6
Apply a ~6.5% -res to the MB chain, and you get 111.4 DPS, which is approximately 10 more DPS at base. Multiply that by about 2.5 from enhancements and build-up, and that's 25 more DPS.
Quote:
| SR > PS > AS > SS still benefits from far superior burst damage, procs better, and gives a global Resistance buff. |
But let's take it into account:
Total Animation time
AS-SR-PS-MB = 1.188+1.98+1.32+1.188= 5.68 seconds
AS-SS-SR-PS = 1.188+3.036+1.98+1.32= 7.54 seconds
Total damage from reactive
AS-SR-PS-MB = 200/5.68 = 35.2
AS-SS-SR-PS = 200/7.54 = 26.5
Apply ~6.5% -res onto the MB chain, and you get 37.5 , which is 11 more DPS. And I didn't take Reactives -res into account either.
Far superior burst damage? Try slightly better, seeing as you can pop off two attacks by the time SS's animation completes. And you can keep SS, just use it for when you need resistance, a bit extra burst, and the need to look cool. Just because you took it doesn't mean you have to use it all the time.
Quote:
|
Do you want maybe 10 more DPS in exchange for 7.5% Resistance and vastly superior Burst? That's the choice. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Waste of a power to only use it sometimes. Power Builds refuse to have such dead weight. Moving on...
Slotting Hecatomb in SS means far more reliable procs, which means far more reliable damage. You know that. Don't be silly. ToD is such a worthless PPM. Much better to slot 5 Hecatomb + Mako's PPM.
All things said, I'm willing to admit that MB > SR > SS > PS is probably the better DPS chain. Although you probably need to be fair and consider that SR > PS > AS > SS has access to Heel too (Water Spout), although on that end MB > SR > SS > PS can proc it more often as well. Not the point, I figure.
Either way, you are underestimating the burst qualities of a Critical Sky Splitter, with your argument of "You can do two attacks in the time you do one Sky Splitter, although Sky Splitter will, more often than not, hit harder. And almost always proc Makos/Hecatomb."
Quote:
Build|
Originally Posted by Blitzwulf
If you have tested, downed, or flat out got owned on the Pylon challenge post-I22 using a Stalker, please help out the rest of the Stalker community and let us know what powersets were used, time to down, or other relevant information on the subject.
|
Level 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
No Incarnate Abilities
Global Damage = 16% (7% from IOs and 9% from Aura of Mot)
Global Recharge = 35%
Net End. Gain = 2.63/s (as reported by Mids)*
Achilles' Heel: Chance for Res Debuff slotted in Soaring Dragon
Stalker's Guile: Chance for Hide slotted in Assassin's Blade (Catalyzed and aquired in game).
Attack Chain
Assassin's Blade -> Soaring Dragon -> Golden Dragonfly -> Divine Avalanche -> Gambler's Cut -> Sting of the Wasp
Replaced [Sting of the Wasp] with [Build Up] when I had three stacks of Assassin's Focus.
Time
13 minutes, 22 seconds -> 802 seconds
Calculated DPS
DPS = ( 38,300 / 802 ) + 128 = ~176
Notes
For the test I disabled Ninja Reflexes and Kuji-In Rin (Which is usually auto-clicked). By the end of the test I had used a total of 14 small blue inspirations. No other inspirations were used. No Incarnate powers were used. The temporary power [Aura of Mot] is an auto power so it could not be turned off (9% recovery and 9% damage).
My DPS is very low compared to others (poor attack chain). But, hopefully, it will be a useful data point.
*Net Endurance Gain would actually be a little higher due to turning off Ninja Reflexes and [Aura of Mot]. Still no where near enough to solo a pylon without inspirations.
If you can manage to at least not need to use DA and SotW, it'll improve immensely.
Hey there. I'm new to this forums section and pylon testing ordeal. I've recently made a Staff/Dark Armor Stalker I'm pleased with and I'd like to know how precisely to do the calculations to determine my dps. (Math is not a strong suit for me.) Also, these pylons are within the Rikti warzone, correct? Thanks for your time 
Templar of Truth Level 50+++ Triform Peacebringer - Server Freedom
Templar of Judgement Level 50+++ Triform Warshade - Server Freedom
Gaze into the Abyss... OR ...Walk in the LightTemplar of Judgement Level 50+++ Triform Warshade - Server Freedom
And you thought eight Kheldians were awesome...
Alright. I did more tests.
T3 Musculature (Lazy)
T4 Reactive
Water Spout w/Heel
Mako SBEs
No Hecatomb SBE. Not buying it now.
Leading with AS...
SR > PS > AS > SS = 3:45 = 293 DPS
MB > SR > AS > PS = 3:22 = 317 DPS
= 24 DPS Difference
I can see why this happens. The first chain suffers immensely from a miss, but gets more AS crits on average. The first chain gives no craps, and if you're somewhat lucky you won't notice the proc defunct.
So, there you go. Second chain is more Exemplar friendly, does more DPS, loses 7.5% Resistance.
First chain has more solid burst with SS.
Quote:
Could you please try this one now? I don't wanna go through another math frenzy and it could be quite solid.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Alright. I did more tests.
T3 Musculature (Lazy) T4 Reactive Water Spout w/Heel Mako SBEs No Hecatomb SBE. Not buying it now. Leading with AS... SR > PS > AS > SS = 3:45 = 293 DPS MB > SR > AS > PS = 3:22 = 317 DPS = 24 DPS Difference I can see why this happens. The first chain suffers immensely from a miss, but gets more AS crits on average. The first chain gives no craps, and if you're somewhat lucky you won't notice the proc defunct. So, there you go. Second chain is more Exemplar friendly, does more DPS, loses 7.5% Resistance. First chain has more solid burst with SS. |
AS-SS-SR-PS-AS-SR-PS-MB
If SS stops critting, an adjustment has to be made similarly to the StJ chain.
And why did you use PS after AS instead of SR?
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Because PS is the better DPA attack by a small margin? Do you think using SR for it's higher base damage is better than PS's better DPA?
Also, I'm not really being convinced to do another respec ;P
AS-SS-SR-PS-AS-SR-PS-MB <--- What is the theorized DPS? Unless it beats the current 'best chain', I'm not bothering.
Also I couldn't do that anyway with out sacrificing Power Sink or Water Spout or some such. Power Sink I don't want to lose because... it's Power Sink.
Water Spout is just a godly damage booster.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.956
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Stalker
Primary Power Set: Staff Fighting
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Precise Strike
- (A) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
- (3) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (3) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge
- (5) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
- (5) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (7) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (7) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +3% Res (All)
- (A) Superior Stalker's Guile - Damage/Recharge
- (9) Superior Stalker's Guile - Accuracy/Damage
- (9) Superior Stalker's Guile - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (11) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (11) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (13) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (13) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (15) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
- (A) Superior Stalker's Guile - Recharge/Chance to Hide
- (15) Superior Stalker's Guile - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (17) Superior Stalker's Guile - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (17) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (19) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (19) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
- (A) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (21) Rectified Reticle - Increased Perception
- (A) Titanium Coating - Resistance
- (21) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance
- (23) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (23) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (25) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (25) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (A) Aegis - Resistance
- (27) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
- (27) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
- (A) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
- (29) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (29) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge
- (31) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
- (31) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (48) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (48) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (48) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (31) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (33) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (33) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (A) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
- (33) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (34) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Recharge
- (34) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
- (34) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (36) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (A) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance
- (36) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge
- (36) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (37) Doctored Wounds - Heal
- (37) Doctored Wounds - Recharge
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (40) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (40) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (40) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
- (42) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (42) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (42) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
- (43) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy
- (43) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance
- (A) Ragnarok - Damage
- (43) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
- (45) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (45) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Recharge
- (45) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
- (46) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (46) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (46) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (50) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (50) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (50) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Level 4: Swift
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Miracle - +Recovery
- (37) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (39) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
- (39) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy
- (39) Performance Shifter - EndMod
Level 1: Combo Level 2
Level 1: Combo Level 3
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------
Current build I'm running. Yay Soft Caps, High Recharge, Good HP, and such!
Quote:
Yes, since you want your highest damaging attack to utilize the extra crit from AS. And the second highest damaging afterwards just in case you miss.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Because PS is the better DPA attack by a small margin? Do you think using SR for it's higher base damage is better than PS's better DPA?
|
Quote:
| AS-SS-SR-PS-AS-SR-PS-MB <--- What is the theorized DPS? Unless it beats the current 'best chain', I'm not bothering. |
I just ran the numbers and results say that it's about the same DPS as AS-SR-PS-MB before reactive. So yeah, best to ditch SS for attack chains and leave it as a burst/mitigation tool or simply not take it.
Nice build BTW.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Much obliged. Thanks for the superior chain, Auro.
That is, either MB > PS > AS > SS .... or .... MB > SR etc. not PS > SR > AS > SS which can't slot - RES.
Note: Fireball is good too but not nearly as versatile as good ol' Water Spout.