Discussion: European Services Update
By
Angelxman81,
Posted on: 2012-03-30 10:34 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I can totally understand this step.
The population of Zukunft got less and less over the last few years.
When i started with the game, end of 2006 there were about 150 and more players blue side and nearly 100 players red side during main time. (don´t know about hidden ones)
And now, most time of the year you do not see more than 50/blue and 10/red side.
I did already play some of my chars on servers with English language because of the lack of incarnate trials on Zukunft, so this is not such a big Problem.
But i can´t enjoy the new content with reading the dialogues in English as much as could with reading it in German.
And more than half of the bubbles in the cut scenes vanish to fast for me to read them completely in English.
In German i do already feel, that the dialogues are often to long-winded.
Somehow i do not get warm with reading in this game, even after all this years, which doesn´t mean we don´t have good stories. We´ve got great stories.
But i wish we had at least one comic book Page before every mission like with the tutorial, introducing us into the mission or giving a conclusion of the past mission.
At the end...
i guess you shouldn´t expect us and our French fellow sufferers to not speak German/French in chat channels.
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With changing it to Future it would already feel a bit like identity theft for me.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think "Vigilance" is fine as a name for an English server, but "Zukunft" might need a rethink - like either changing it to "Future" , or to a totally new name.
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But changing it to a tottaly different name??? X(
That feels like steeling me my home.
I can understand that there might be a need to change the name into an English one, because otherwise people might avoid that server.
My idea about it, if changing the name is really necessary would be that it should be changed to "Future" and that there should be an addition.
Maybe name it "Future aka Zukunft".
Or put there something in brackets like the sentence you already see (German Language)
In those brackets could stand (former Zukunft)
or even better in German (vormals Zukunft) so that new players with German language can suspect that this might be a good home for them.
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Originally Posted by _kribbla_
We Germans are talking usually on a inofficial Board about News like this. So the official Forums are nearly zero frequented.
I think, the Crowd will begin to reponse in the next Hours (maybe after End of Work). Then, what will i discuss? I have to take it like it is. |
We´ve had a great forum which helped to build an outstanding community till it closed the doors last year.
But through the great work of some community members we had got a follow forum immediately.
Those forums were and are the first place to be for most of us to get news or if you need any help with the game. Technically or whatever.
And in most cases you got that help there.
The big thing on it always had been that players who retired could stay in touch with others.
So closing the German official Forum is no loss for us.
btw this forum is often called the unofficial official or the official unofficial forum.
Maybe it should get linked somewhere on the Paragon Website to help more people find the way.
Not to forget...
Nearly all players with German language who are active on the official forum are active in the English section.
And Zwillinger mentioned in the German thread that he doesn´t understand German and that it would be better if we would respond in this thread and or in English.
So don´t expect many people to post in the other thread.
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I can sign this.|
Originally Posted by Nos482
Hmm, have you guys ever heard the word ADVERTISING?
No rapid growth? Could be, because it´s only by word-of-mouth here, that ppl get to know about CoH. Dear Devs, to best summarize my feelings for you right now...->click<-  |
I nearly want to say there was nothing.
I still know, that i found city of heroes in the web by accident, i think in late 2005.
But what i found was only in English i was first interested but then i had seen that you had to pay a monthly fee for it.
I thought about that
*are you kidding me? paying for the game and then paying also per month?*
So i left the game were it was.
Maybe a year later (late 2006) i wanted to play a superhero game but not another one of these movie conversions like Spiderman or FF. I remembered that there was this one game, where you could create your own heroes, but i couldn´t remember the name. I thought maybe its possible to play it offline now (no idea of MMO´s before).
So i began to search, but it was really hard to find at that time without knowing the name.
Then i found it and saw that you can play a trial for free.
I thought, well, let´s give it a try and i´m infected.
I always thought about advertisements in the different Super Hero Comic Books which are also sold over here.
There are only 2-3 pages of advertisement in them and i don´t think that many want to do it through this way, so it shouldn´t have been to expensive.
That way the game might have found a lot more customers over here.
It would also have found the way into my pc earlier.
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Considering that in the last DXP weekend of all the servers listed only Defiant, Vigilance and Zukunft were at one blob instead of the two every other server was showing, I'd guess not long Dante. |
Originally Posted by Dante
I see the business sense, I hear the cost cutting arguments and totally understand but I'm disappointed to see it's once again the EU players who get the shaft.
I wonder how long it will be before all EU accounts get closed because of cuts. Not a good day for anyone, my sympathies to our loyal French and German companions.  |
This change will alienate the remaining players on the soon to be non localized servers to the point of not a single one of them remaining there. And I don't see any of the people who already have an established server switching to go play over there. To me, it comes out as an oblique shot to one's foot. But hey, I can see the business logic behind it: continue to waste resources for little or no revenue or cut your losses and consign dying servers to a quicker and less painful "death". Not an easy choice to make.
Bonne chance and viel Glück to my EU brethren. I figure it won't be long before something else happens to Defiant too...
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Originally Posted by Incan
Getting rid of the translation is not getting rid of players, thank for your consideration. Vigilance's community is and will remain frenchspeaking.
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Now that is what I wanted to hear.
Up until this point I've been hearing Doom, Doom, Doom... it is nice to hear someone speak up and say that they are not going anywhere.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
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There is no reason, localisation is expensive, keeping them is not, even with a low population.|
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
I figure it won't be long before something else happens to Defiant too...
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Originally Posted by X_the_Gambler
My idea about it, if changing the name is really necessary would be that it should be changed to "Future" and that there should be an addition.
Maybe name it "Future aka Zukunft". Or put there something in brackets like the sentence you already see (German Language) In those brackets could stand (former Zukunft) or even better in German (vormals Zukunft) so that new players with German language can suspect that this might be a good home for them. |
Anyway, there is no reason to change the name of Zukunft and/or Vigilance even if their name does not please some people. I play on Vigilance for over seven years, I don't want its name to change cause an eventual new english speaking player could want another name.
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They thought they were getting a game that would be in their language, and now it won't be. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I don't think you know what the term "Bait and Switch" means.
They haven't been told "buy this product at a lower price" then been told that "That product is out of stock, but here is another brand at a higher price." They have had value for their money. That is, they got a service for their subscription. That service is being phased out. They can choose to continue the service for the same money or stop subscribing. Interesting factoid: Most Europeans are multi-lingual. The 12-get-2 wasn't available to European players, and 7 months? At a guess that is fairly close to when Issue 23 will land (I'm guessing July to end of August). They DID their research, according to Zwillinger: Their research showed that it might be profitable to keep production in French and German. After reviewing the situation, it turned out that it wasn't profitable. So, because it wasn't profitable, they are ceasing the unprofitable operations. Um, the costs of marketing in other languages were considered. They weren't getting value for their foreign language marketing or the localization to the other languages. In other words, it costs them more to operate in other languages than they expect revenue from. No business in the world, if they want to be successful, would stick with that situation. |
Baited by the initial product, switched to a less useful product, thus making it over-priced for what they get. Yeah, I know what bait and switch means. Is it spot on? Maybe not. But the spirit of it is there.
No, their research showed that free to play games were popular. Because they were free. Not because they made money. It was a a business decision that was risky on the onset. And now, some kids after investing a lot of time are finding that things have changed.
Now, according to a couple of folks that play on those servers, this is actually seen as a good thing, because our alt-oholic player base may go there and help populate the server.
I still think that the decision is a bad one. Not because it might help those servers get more people, and not because it gives me another couple of english servers to play on, but because it shows that if servers are not populated enough, this company might pull the plug on them at any time and as a player, the only recourse I would have would be to adapt or quit.
It sets a very bad precedent in my eyes. You may view it how you wish.
As for the multi-lingual folks, bless them. I suspect that many of them are already playing on the English speaking servers for several reasons, one being to be able to practice its use.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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No. It is not. Bait-and-switch is a legal claim that implies intent to defraud. No such intent is present here.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
They thought they were getting a game that would be in their language, and now it won't be.
Baited by the initial product, switched to a less useful product, thus making it over-priced for what they get. Yeah, I know what bait and switch means. Is it spot on? Maybe not. But the spirit of it is there. |
If you were ever, ever to use your line of argument in a court of law to prove 'bait-and-switch', your case would be summarily dismissed and you'd get a warning not to attempt such a frivolous lawsuit again.
No one was baited with one product with the intent to sell a different product.
BTW, unfounded claims of 'bait-and-switch' would be a case of 'defamation.'
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The thing is, they DID get a product in their language.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
They thought they were getting a game that would be in their language, and now it won't be.
Baited by the initial product, switched to a less useful product, thus making it over-priced for what they get. Yeah, I know what bait and switch means. Is it spot on? Maybe not. But the spirit of it is there. |
Support is now being deprecated for that language.
The game itself remains available and allows the player to determine whether or not to keep participating (and/or paying).
That's NOT bait and switch.
This is like griping that you can't go to a Chrysler dealership and buy a brand new 1990 Dodge Shadow today.
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| I still think that the decision is a bad one. Not because it might help those servers get more people, and not because it gives me another couple of english servers to play on, but because it shows that if servers are not populated enough, this company might pull the plug on them at any time and as a player, the only recourse I would have would be to adapt or quit. |
For the language support, they'd either have to pull some existing people completely off their real jobs or hire multiple new people for each supported language. At least one to do community moderation and one to do translation for game data. And these people are NOT going to want to work for free or with no benefits.
Even if you paid these people the craptastic wage of $30K a year (which is below poverty level in Paragon's neck of the woods), you're still looking at over a hundred grand a year in salary and benefits. Are the non-english servers bringing in this much in revenue?
Before you jump on me as a dev apologist, understand this. I, too, think this is a bad, rotten precedent. On the flip side, I can understand it completely, even though I don't like it.
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Fridge logic: The announcement was in English and they didn't translate it?|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The response on the German thread has been fairly overwhelming.
It's as if a billion voices cried out... Okay, maybe a couple hundred thousand... Okay, maybe a couple hundred... Maybe a couple dozen? A dozen? A few? A couple? At least one? Nah, it's been pretty much silence... Granted, this hit the servers at around 8PM their time. |
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Fridge fact: It was announced in German.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Fridge logic: The announcement was in English and they didn't translate it?
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Fridge rule of thumb: Verify before posting.
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QR: Bait and switch? Well, that's an eight year old bait and switch that even Nemesis couldn't have planned out.
i.e. No
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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For the people that have a hard time reading captions and dialogue:
Add a tab "NPC text" hit edit:
Add the NPC dialogue, captions
Maybe even vill, hero, praetoria zone events
Once your finished with the mission and doing the solo you can read what the people have said.
I do this all the time because sometimes they say funny things as your running by and didn't catch it
VIG0S: 1356 badges in counting
Something for ppl to use There are no plan to rename the servers or to remove the FR and DE tags.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Thank you..
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
There are no plan to rename the servers or to remove the FR and DE tags.
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Obviously you don't know what bait and switch means.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
They thought they were getting a game that would be in their language, and now it won't be.
Baited by the initial product, switched to a less useful product, thus making it over-priced for what they get. Yeah, I know what bait and switch means. Is it spot on? Maybe not. But the spirit of it is there. |
Bait and switch is a clearly defined legal term. Your use of Bait and switch isn't applicable in any jurisdiction on the planet to my knowledge. The term you are looking for, by your definition, is "devaluation". As in "They feel the service has been devalued by not being translated to their native language." That is completely different than Paragon Studios intending to defraud the players. To reach the definition of "Bait and switch", Paragon Studios would have to say that "Oh, we're sold out of CoH:German, but you can buy our City of Germans: Hero Edition for 20 more a month." That is bait and switch.
The spirit of it isn't even there. The spirit of the term "Bait and switch" is that some people in sales commit to an ethics breach and try to lure a consumer in with a bargain, but never intending to sell the item that lured the customer in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
No, their research showed that free to play games were popular. Because they were free. Not because they made money.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
And now, some kids after investing a lot of time are finding that things have changed.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
I still think that the decision is a bad one. Not because it might help those servers get more people, and not because it gives me another couple of english servers to play on, but because it shows that if servers are not populated enough, this company might pull the plug on them at any time and as a player, the only recourse I would have would be to adapt or quit.
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Everything Snow Globe said.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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After reading some Posts on our "Official unofficial CoH Board" (thx @Gambit) i have to Say, theres no Dooom Crying.
We have to Deal with it and can be glad, that our Server stays open.
Wir sind Zukunft! Und das an jedem Wochentag!
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If this language closure must take place, (and I hate it for our Francophone Canadian friends) let me suggest something: in all Atlases, near Atlas Plaza, place 'Deutscher Bund' and 'Hall Francais' buildings where those language groups can gather for community and maybe even add official Deutsche and Francais help channels.
Per TonyV - sure, lets add a Portuguese Building, too
<QR>
I know that some people here are going to look at this as some kind of fatal blow to the French and/or German communities. I just have to point out that most non-English speakers I see in the game are not French or German, they're Brazilian and they speak Portuguese. Apparently, there is a moderately thriving Brazilian contingent of players in the game. Thanks to Google translate, I've even teamed up with some of them on occasion.
If Brazilian players speaking Portuguese, which has never been supported, can find a way to play and hang out with friends and start and join supergroups and even have Portuguese-language fan sites, why would anyone thing that French and German players are just going to pick up and leave en masse? (Sorry, no pun intended.)
Sure, they'll lose some subscriptions. Hopefully not too many. And while I think it's a shame that Paragon Studios and/or NCsoft have to make such decisions regarding resource allocation, I hope that people can see the silver lining to this--that the time and effort that is currently being spent writing and translating everything twice will be much better spent focusing on stuff for the vast majority of English-speaking players. Yeah, I don't like that we'll be getting more attention at the expense of other players, but given that it's going to happen, at least that's something.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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lucky bum >.> some freebie was cussing me out in Portuguese because I didn't want to join their team...|
Originally Posted by TonyV
<QR>
I know that some people here are going to look at this as some kind of fatal blow to the French and/or German communities. I just have to point out that most non-English speakers I see in the game are not French or German, they're Brazilian and they speak Portuguese. Apparently, there is a moderately thriving Brazilian contingent of players in the game. Thanks to Google translate, I've even teamed up with some of them on occasion. If Brazilian players speaking Portuguese, which has never been supported, can find a way to play and hang out with friends and start and join supergroups and even have Portuguese-language fan sites, why would anyone thing that French and German players are just going to pick up and leave en masse? (Sorry, no pun intended.) |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
QR: Bait and switch? Well, that's an eight year old bait and switch that even Nemesis couldn't have planned out.
i.e. No |
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Because it wouldn't make sense to waste the effort and lead to confusion to those returning players who considered those as their Home servers.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
There are no plan to rename the servers or to remove the FR and DE tags.
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Yes, since my name is very common in Brazil I have been approached countless times, and I've teamed with them occasionally. The NCsoft distributor in Brazil (Level Up!) is a lot better at selling the game than the Argentine distributor (Edusoft) ever was. There are many active Portuguese supergroups.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
I just have to point out that most non-English speakers I see in the game are not French or German, they're Brazilian and they speak Portuguese. Apparently, there is a moderately thriving Brazilian contingent of players in the game.
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I m not sure about that at all. With the timing, I think it's just a cut in expanse and not a reallocation. If I were an english player, or intend to continue playing, I would rather ask me what's coming next ? Where will be the next target where they could spend a little less money ?|
Originally Posted by TonyV
Sure, they'll lose some subscriptions. Hopefully not too many. And while I think it's a shame that Paragon Studios and/or NCsoft have to make such decisions regarding resource allocation, I hope that people can see the silver lining to this--that the time and effort that is currently being spent writing and translating everything twice will be much better spent focusing on stuff for the vast majority of English-speaking players. Yeah, I don't like that we'll be getting more attention at the expense of other players, but given that it's going to happen, at least that's something.
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I dont know how the situation is in brazil. It seems that they have their one editor, maybe is he doing in job in doing what is necessary to sell the game ? Because here, there is nothing to attract new players. And there is a difference in not getting something and losing in due to the game company letting us down, without any prior notice, and without any visible effort to find another way out.
The french player who dont mind about speaking english are already, for most of them, playing on an NA-serveur (freedom). I dont think that there will be a lot more player from vigilance who will go to another server.
I understand this.
I always wished they made support and translation to spanish...