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I've enjoyed playing many different Scrappers since release, but not even my Elec/SD Scrapper can slaughter hordes of mobs as efficiently as my SS/Fire/Soul Brute. I have no doubt that it's an outlier, especially with Incarnate powers, as nothing short of an AV or GM survives long enough to stand a chance of defeating him.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Not all sets are the same, and Fury can buff any AoE potential of the secondary (such as damage auras as you say). Combine those together, and you get Super Strength/Fire significantly outdoing Scrapper AoE. Perhaps that's what was meant about Brutes having more AoE, but I suspect it's an outlier. I've done no analysis, though.
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That said, I still love me some Scrappers.
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With how much more powerful Defense is than Resist, I am not sure that it would even matter. :/ Please note that that is very hard for me to admit, because I fought tooth and nail for years saying that not every set needed to be built for Defense.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The more I think of this and the debates between the melee ATs, the more I'm convinced the following is a good idea...
Tankers 90% Resist Cap Brutes 85% Resist Cap Scrappers 80% Resist Cap Stalkers 75% Resist Cap One thing that has bothered me is the tough scrappers have the same max resist cap as all the squishies.  Not to the point of caring to much mind you.But then it helps going with the reverse order in terms of damage (though that will be subjective on lots of factors...AOE vs ST, DPS, Burst, keeping enemies close for the AOEs and ST, specific sets that just advantage specific AT mechanics). And there you go. The best makeover a Scrapper can get! 80% Resist Cap! |
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True, but I think that has to do more with the general lack of +Resist bonuses. Something they could do is make the +3% Resist IO a +6% Resist IO. I still think if it was that much people would start wanting it more often.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
With how much more powerful Defense is than Resist, I am not sure that it would even matter. :/ Please note that that is very hard for me to admit, because I fought tooth and nail for years saying that not every set needed to be built for Defense.
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But making more sets in general that grant decent +Resist ALL bonuses (likely in the 6th slot) I think would go along way in having people go alternate routes for builds besides +DEF set bonuses.
I of course admit, I could be wrong.
But part of that suggestion was from a team perspective as well. This change would help keep the lines between damage and survival (admittedly Brutes sometimes take the win in damage and survival due to things like Gloom...which btw Im not asking to be removed...though I did try really hard in GR to get Scrappers Gloom instead of Dark Blast
) more imo. A little overlap however is a good thing imo! It makes for nice differences in power combos.
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I would increase Stalker resistance cap to 80% as well. In the theory that all melee-centric ATs should be able to get more resistance than a Defender or Controller.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The more I think of this and the debates between the melee ATs, the more I'm convinced the following is a good idea...
Tankers 90% Resist Cap Brutes 85% Resist Cap Scrappers 80% Resist Cap Stalkers 75% Resist Cap One thing that has bothered me is the tough scrappers have the same max resist cap as all the squishies. Not to the point of caring to much mind you.But then it helps going with the reverse order in terms of damage (though that will be subjective on lots of factors...AOE vs ST, DPS, Burst, keeping enemies close for the AOEs and ST, specific sets that just advantage specific AT mechanics). And there you go. The best makeover a Scrapper can get! 80% Resist Cap! |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I had thought about it, but in the end, I went with the idea that Stalkers are the squishier melee AT as part of their high DPS/Burst Damage.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I would increase Stalker resistance cap to 80% as well. In the theory that all melee-centric ATs should be able to get more resistance than a Defender or Controller.
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Solo wise, I find this less of a problem, as outside of a few elemental resists (in matching defense sets) and tier 9 use for some of the sets, reaching the 75% resist cap is already difficult if not impossible.
Also I figured it fit along the line of Higher Resist Cap and More HP to make the melee AT sturdier.
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At this point I think it would be a mistake to increase anything else about Stalkers. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I would increase Stalker resistance cap to 80% as well. In the theory that all melee-centric ATs should be able to get more resistance than a Defender or Controller.
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I think only time will tell, but I think in the next "Most Popular AT" release Scrappers will no longer be at the top.
I also still would like to see scrappers get something unique, but my flame protection is wearing thin.
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I think we'll see increase in Scrapper love when we see new Defense sets made, Zyphoid.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
At this point I think it would be a mistake to increase anything else about Stalkers.
I think only time will tell, but I think in the next "Most Popular AT" release Scrappers will no longer be at the top. I also still would like to see scrappers get something unique, but my flame protection is wearing thin. |
I imagine new Defensive sets that don't have a dmg aura will have a taunt aura in them that Scrappers can use.
I think it's only the taunt aura issue that really has people going for Brutes.
Also the Stalker buff is new, so it's making people want to play them, but I think it'll even back out after the newness wears off.
I say that with me personally loving the Stalker change, and thinking it's great that they finally do as much DPS as they do, like they should of all along.
I still found Scrapper IO WP build to seem more survivable than an IOed out Stalker build, buuuut, with WP at least it wasnt that big of a difference.
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I doubt there will be any new defensive set maybe except a ninjitsu clone but if it ever happens I would like to see a resist all/positional defense set a counter part of invul.
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I have no idea why you think that, unless you think the set is going to have a scaling mechanic that calls for it, like Invincibility.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I imagine new Defensive sets that don't have a dmg aura will have a taunt aura in them that Scrappers can use.
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The devs are not going to give new Scrapper sets (and only new sets) taunt auras because of runners.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think the bigger problem is how much things run. Now I have to admit it is a huge ego boost when a GM runs from my solo scrapper, that makes it no less annoying. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I have no idea why you think that, unless you think the set is going to have a scaling mechanic that calls for it, like Invincibility.
The devs are not going to give new Scrapper sets (and only new sets) taunt auras because of runners. |
Certain Mobs just should not run. As in Boss and higher mobs should not run. Crap just runs too much, and it hurts the melee ATs the most. Scrappers and Stalkers in particular. Though things do seem to run more from my scrappers than my stalkers.
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Oh, I think you know I agree. I dislike the AI's behavior a lot. I don't get down on it affecting my drops/hour or something like that in standard play, like some people do, but I don't enjoy it.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I think the bigger problem is how much things run. Now I have to admit it is a huge ego boost when a GM runs from my solo scrapper, that makes it no less annoying.
Certain Mobs just should not run. As in Boss and higher mobs should not run. Crap just runs too much, and it hurts the melee ATs the most. |
I just thought it was strange to be so declarative about the likelyhood that a "fix" for that would appear in the form of in-set taunt auras for new Scrapper secondaries.
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| Scrappers and Stalkers in particular. Though things do seem to run more from my scrappers than my stalkers. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The counter problem is that many mobs also run *towards* the player and that shouldn't always happen either, but that benefits melee the most.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I think the bigger problem is how much things run. Now I have to admit it is a huge ego boost when a GM runs from my solo scrapper, that makes it no less annoying.
Certain Mobs just should not run. As in Boss and higher mobs should not run. Crap just runs too much, and it hurts the melee ATs the most. Scrappers and Stalkers in particular. Though things do seem to run more from my scrappers than my stalkers. |
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It does seem funny how easy it is to get a group of men with guns to all decide to close in range of my pbaoes to punch at me uselessly.
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They ran out of ammo!
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Originally Posted by slythetic
It does seem funny how easy it is to get a group of men with guns to all decide to close in range of my pbaoes to punch at me uselessly.
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I admit, I base this purely on the fact that when a new defense set is released, it'll be likely for all (or 3 out of 4) melee ATs. Two of those melee ATs will have a taunt aura in them, and I can't imagine it not making it through beta without people clamouring for the taunt aura not to be added to Scrappers if it isnt already.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I have no idea why you think that, unless you think the set is going to have a scaling mechanic that calls for it, like Invincibility.
The devs are not going to give new Scrapper sets (and only new sets) taunt auras because of runners. |
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It would be interesting if critter ranged attacks cost them a lot of endurance. In effect, they would (sort of) run out of ammo and need to close to melee range to use (cheaper) melee attacks.
This probably wouldn't work, implemented that way, though, even if the AI would deal with it correctly (which isn't at all clear to me). For one thing, if they drained most of their end firing ranged attacks before they closed to melee, how much melee could they really execute, unless their melee attacks were really cheap? And really cheap melee attacks would have knock-on effects on end drain as a mitigation tool.
But it would be cool if they shot first and closed afterward. That they can stand off and fire at us forever is an artifact of the powers system abstracting guns as costing endurance to use. Then again, not everything shoots at us with guns, so maybe nevermind...
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You have to remember, there's zero indication that the devs think this is a problem. Heck, there's zero indication they even acknowledge what we're saying actually happens, but even if they do acknowledge it, there's no indication that they consider it a problem that needs any fixing. Given that, I think expecting them to add taunts to powersets that might not "need" it mechanically (like Invul, WP or Shield) is probably premature.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I admit, I base this purely on the fact that when a new defense set is released, it'll be likely for all (or 3 out of 4) melee ATs. Two of those melee ATs will have a taunt aura in them, and I can't imagine it not making it through beta without people clamouring for the taunt aura not to be added to Scrappers if it isnt already.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Just checking to see if you guys are also reading the stalker boards. I have 2 at 50 now so I feel I am allowed there. Oddly I still consider myself a scrapper, may need to talk to my doc about that on Monday.
There is at least one person saying that stalkers need further buff. Which I think is horse poop, but hey.
Give it time and my paranoia will be proven correct, we will be wallowing in the mud with the tankers. And posters like EG , Leo_g, Brand X, and I will be crazy for thinking that scrappers should get back to their glory days.
Ok that was a little over dramatized. :P I Think the best thing that could be done is all of the melee ATs looked at in how they balance with each other. We may love or hate what comes from that.
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I didn't know you had an alternate account, Johnny!|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Just checking to see if you guys are also reading the stalker boards. I have 2 at 50 now so I feel I am allowed there. Oddly I still consider myself a scrapper, may need to talk to my doc about that on Monday.
There is at least one person saying that stalkers need further buff. Which I think is horse poop, but hey. Give it time and my paranoia will be proven correct, we will be wallowing in the mud with the tankers. And posters like EG , Leo_g, Brand X, and I will be crazy for thinking that scrappers should get back to their glory days. Ok that was a little over dramatized. :P I Think the best thing that could be done is all of the melee ATs looked at in how they balance with each other. We may love or hate what comes from that. |
>_>
Since you left out all context, Johnny, let me support the Stalker Forums for a moment. The Stalker Forums feel ALL underforming Melee sets need to be buffed at this point, but it's not a priority issue. Everyone acknowledges, at least people who aren't Johnny, that Blasters and Ranged Sets need to be addressed, as again, Fire Blast is only equal to the rough average of damage of melee sets.
It's logical that people would want underperforming sets like Spines to get looked at in the near future. THAT is what the Stalker Forums are saying, while you make it sound like "HURRR WE NEED MOAR BUFFS GUIZ".
They want universal melee set balance, Johnny.
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I got the impression the poster thought it was individual sets, but grouped it as Stalkers as a whole.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Just checking to see if you guys are also reading the stalker boards. I have 2 at 50 now so I feel I am allowed there. Oddly I still consider myself a scrapper, may need to talk to my doc about that on Monday.
There is at least one person saying that stalkers need further buff. Which I think is horse poop, but hey. Give it time and my paranoia will be proven correct, we will be wallowing in the mud with the tankers. And posters like EG , Leo_g, Brand X, and I will be crazy for thinking that scrappers should get back to their glory days. Ok that was a little over dramatized. :P I Think the best thing that could be done is all of the melee ATs looked at in how they balance with each other. We may love or hate what comes from that. |
And much like you, I think of myself as mainly a Scrapper player, but I've always loved Stalkers for what I saw them as "more sneaky scrappers"
Now they have the damage I think they always should have had.
Im only more into Stalkers now, because they have two sets (neither one perfect for one reason or another) that fit what I'm looking for more (WP and NIN...NIN would be much more inline with what I want, if it's Mez wasnt clickie, which just irritates me now).
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To the best of my knowledge, the critter AI has no awareness of endurance, and no way to budget it. They'd burn their end down to the point of detoggling themselves if they could, which is why so few critters actually have genuine toggles.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
This probably wouldn't work, implemented that way, though, even if the AI would deal with it correctly (which isn't at all clear to me).
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Ha, ammo. What a silly concept!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
They ran out of ammo!
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Please don't call me Johnny. I know you are playing, but I really don't like it.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I didn't know you had an alternate account, Johnny!
>_> Since you left out all context, Johnny, let me support the Stalker Forums for a moment. The Stalker Forums feel ALL underforming Melee sets need to be buffed at this point, but it's not a priority issue. Everyone acknowledges, at least people who aren't Johnny, that Blasters and Ranged Sets need to be addressed, as again, Fire Blast is only equal to the rough average of damage of melee sets. It's logical that people would want underperforming sets like Spines to get looked at in the near future. THAT is what the Stalker Forums are saying, while you make it sound like "HURRR WE NEED MOAR BUFFS GUIZ". They want universal melee set balance, Johnny. |
My post was not meant to be taken as serious as you may have take it. Perhaps it is tone of the boards today, perhaps it is my meds and the fact that I was half asleep when I wrote it.
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| Think the best thing that could be done is all of the melee ATs looked at in how they balance with each other. We may love or hate what comes from that. |
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I was being entirely serious, but if you say it was mostly sarcasm, then pardon me. But... yeah. You went off a Johnny-styled rant there.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Please don't call me Johnny. I know you are playing, but I really don't like it.
My post was not meant to be taken as serious as you may have take it. Perhaps it is tone of the boards today, perhaps it is my meds and the fact that I was half asleep when I wrote it. That was the only part I was even close to serious on. |
Sarcasm noted.
The more I think of this and the debates between the melee ATs, the more I'm convinced the following is a good idea...
Not to the point of caring to much mind you.
Tankers 90% Resist Cap
Brutes 85% Resist Cap
Scrappers 80% Resist Cap
Stalkers 75% Resist Cap
One thing that has bothered me is the tough scrappers have the same max resist cap as all the squishies.
But then it helps going with the reverse order in terms of damage (though that will be subjective on lots of factors...AOE vs ST, DPS, Burst, keeping enemies close for the AOEs and ST, specific sets that just advantage specific AT mechanics).
And there you go. The best makeover a Scrapper can get! 80% Resist Cap!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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