when will scrappers get makeover

I noted the part that I was serious about. As hard as I try to remain respectful, and reasonable, I do find it offensive to be compared to someone who has a long history of being none of the above. I hope you can see why it would bother me so much.

Play a Brute if Scrappers are weak. They do not need any change in my point of view.

This, but it would probably suck to code it.

Do you want to knock your enemy into the next galaxy?

Not on their own, but shouldn't this be this case when buffed due to the much higher damage cap?

That's fairly situational. There damage cap is higher (775% at all levels - probably a relic of GR where their damage was to draw argo to be more tank-y) than scrappers (210% until lvl21 then 500%) but scrappers have a higher attack modifier (1.25 compared to .80 - same as tanks). Brutes will always start lower and have the potential to end higher; whereas, scrap typically have higher damage outright and more predictable performance - that's our boon. My guess is we think that they (brutes) do more damage because our methods of testing them (Pylon) offers a steady environment allowing them to steadily build fury, then we just add on the 775% potential as an after thought. This may or may not reflect any one teams experience. Now on Itrials, I would give the edge in all areas to Brutes because they are just buff sponges - their limits are vast both in damage and mitigation. I'm *definately* not known for making good conclusions, however. Not on these forums anyway.

Your factors a little off. Scrapper base damage modifier is 1.125 not 1.25 if you take critical into account it is %10 for almost anything other than minions so it becomes 1,2375 however if you factor ATO's critical chance increase it becomes %16 for most things and it becomes 1.305.

At damage cap a power with a base of 100 damage does 620 damage with a brute and 562.5 damage with scrapper without critical. With normal critical it does 618.75 damage and with ATO it does 652.5 damage. Also most tier 9 primary powers in scrapper set has a flat %15 critical chance if you factor them without ATO brute and scrappers are very close at damage cap.

No. This includes when both ATs are at the damage cap.

The Brute damage cap was reduced slightly in I18 to enforce this. (Edit: It does require accounting for average benefit of critical hits from the Scrapper.)

Alot of people get confused by the percentage numbers; I read it incorrectly the first time I saw it.
They see that a Brute has a damage cap of 775% and a Scrapper of 500% and therfor think that the Brute has the higher damage cap.
What they dont' take into account is the fact that this is a percentage increase on the base damage. The Scrapper has the higher base damage than the Brute and when both are multipled out has the higher damage cap.

Actually, if you take a brute and a scrapper with the same power set and put both at their respective damage cap, the brute will deal slightly more damage.

It's about a 20 damage difference when using a tier 9 attack, but the brute's damage is higher.

It's balanced by the fact that it's virtually impossible to keep a brute at its damage cap for more than a couple seconds at a time, due to how Fury fluctuates. A scrapper, on the other hand, can stay at its cap more consistently than a brute, so in practice their damage is just about dead even.

Also, as UberGuy mentioned, the presence of Critical Hit sways things in the scrapper's favor. A Critical at the damage cap will deal twice what the scrapper is technically supposed to be doing, because it is a straight doubling of damage for most attacks. And that is balanced by the fact that it only happens on 5-10% of all attacks. So, again, they end up about dead even when you put both at their damage cap. 20 attacks x 20 damage = 400. If the scrapper crits 1 time out of 20 with their tier 9 attack they will deal an additional 500 damage or so.

Slight edge to scrappers when all factors are considered.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Amplifying Claws' post, at the damage cap a Scrapper will be doing 1.125 * 5.0 = 5.625 effective damage, while the Brute will be doing 0.75 * 7.75 = 5.8125 effective damage, which is higher. Specifically, 5.8125/5.625 = 1.033, or 3.3% higher. This means if the Scrapper can achieve a critical rate of 3.3% or higher, the Scrapper will beat the Brute at the damage cap. Since the minimum Scrapper critical chance is 5%, the Scrapper will tend to beat the Brute when both are at their respective damage caps, by a small amount.

At lower numbers, the damage modifiers and damage strength numbers shake out a little differently. At 1.95 slotting, the Scrapper does 1.125 * 1.95 = 2.19 effective damage. The Brute at 1.95 slotting and at an average Fury of about +160% damage (80 fury) deals about 0.75 * (1.95 + 1.6) = 2.66, or about 21% higher. No Scrapper can critical at that rate normally, but at a more reasonable 7% average critical rate the Brute will end up about 13.5% higher damage.

Working backwards, at a 7% critical rate the balance point between Scrappers and Brutes where both deal equivalent effective damage occurs at an average fury of about +120% damage or 60 Fury. With the current Fury decay mechanics, its hard to average lower than that.

What's the breakpoint if you assume a reasonable 80% Fury for a Brute going all out, and then start stacking exterior +Dmg% on both of them? Eventually the scrapper ends up way ahead when they're both at 500% total, then the Brute makes up some of the difference when you keep going. But at what level of global +Dmg are they roughly equal?

Assuming 1.07 critical rate and 1.95 slotting, break even occurs at about +69.5% damage buff. At that level the Scrapper ends up at 1.07 * 1.125 * (1.95 + 0.695) = 3.18 and the Brute ends up at 0.75 * (1.95 + 1.60 + 0.695) = 3.18.

So for smaller teams stacking a couple copies of Assault, the Brute keeps his edge. As soon as you toss a Kin on there or start talking about Leagues, the Scrapper is probably going to edge it out. If both players are spamming reds efficiently, the Scrapper is almost always going to be in the lead.

I had actually thought that Brutes had a bigger lead than that. Clearly I need to roll a couple more Scrappers. Now to wait for Hybrid Melee and the Taunt aura option so that stuff stops running away every two seconds.