So... No Freespec w/ I22?
Keep the 3 HO's in the power and replace the procs?
I'm not saying it won't suck, but, what got done doesn't require a respec, it requires 6 new enhancements. |
Still, though...... I've become accustomed to these freespecs, kind of like a seagull that becomes accustomed to tourists giving out bread crumbs. Several of my toons were allowed to languish in a poorly configured state for over a month in anticipation I wouldn't have to use up one of their "built in" respecs.
Some 8 year old characters just maybe have gone through them all. And even with all those options, they gave out free respecs with just about every Issue, even if there weren't changes made to powers before the Market was in play.
When the Devs change powers, we shouldn't have to spend cash to adjust. Period. |
Based on the original philosophy behind why "freespecs" existed, we should not be expected to pay real-world money to adjust when you guys need to make changes to the game, whether you're buffing or "nerfing" something. If you expect us to do that, expect a lot less graciousness from players (from those who ever offer you any) when you make balance changes. If you expect me to pay to adjust, then expect me to expect less need for adjustment from you.
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I've tended to dismiss claims that the Freedom model has led to "money-grubbing" tactics, but if this really is about trying to make people pay for more respecs (and I've seen no evidence to the contrary, like a statement that, "We plan to issue one for the anniversary and don't want to give them out too close together") then I guess my friend who wants me to start beta-testing other games gets his wish. I'll head down to Gamestop with my $5 tomorrow.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
ZM and Uber pretty much summed up my thoughts. Not providing a freespec when meaningful changes have been made to an archetype, and when a powerset shared by two other archetypes has been pretty sizably re-designed, seems to represent a change in the apparent philosophy of the game's management that I find disheartening.
I've tended to dismiss claims that the Freedom model has led to "money-grubbing" tactics, but if this really is about trying to make people pay for more respecs (and I've seen no evidence to the contrary, like a statement that, "We plan to issue one for the anniversary and don't want to give them out too close together") then I guess my friend who wants me to start beta-testing other games gets his wish. I'll head down to Gamestop with my $5 tomorrow. |
The arguement of "Well I don't want to lose those enhancements" is not a reason for a free respec.
Nor is the arguement of "I don't want to lose my HO's that I used in a way that wasn't intended." more so if you knew it wasn't intended (which anyone who used them that way, I find it hard to believe they didn't know).
Now if they decided to, that's awesome! But this issue really didn't warrant it based on changes made. It's no different than you slotting the wrong enhancement into a power and regretting it. You're build should for the most part have the same slots in the same powers (exceptions of course) after the respec.
But free stuff is free stuff.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The BrandX Collection
But the change wasn't meaningful in a way that requires a free respec.
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Sure, not EVERY build needs a respec. Not every build needed to grab a travel power at level 4, or take a travel t5, but we got a freebie for that anyway.
I mean, hey, Zwill has spoken, the odds of getting a freespec now are approximately zip. But I don't at all think it's consistent with what the threshold has been in the past. I don't know that it's some nefarious plot to sell more respecs, or if this is even indicative of a long-term policy change, but it doesn't seem to match past behavior.
There's an issue here: Not the lack of a freespec per se, but the fact that we've had a one freespec (sometimes even 2) since I7.
It's become expected - often for fewer changes than we're experiencing here.
If we're not getting a freespec that's ok in one sense. It's expected, but not guaranteed... but the lack of notification jars somewhat.
Sure, Paragon don't owe us a freespec but they fact they are not giving us one and not telling us is poor form.
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Thelonious Monk
The arguement of "Well I don't want to lose those enhancements" is not a reason for a free respec.
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Now a days many players spend weeks and months to get a single "Purple" or HamiO or they spend REAL money to buy enhancements on the market. Far more time and money then is spent on the character. This may not be YOUR or my play style but it is the play style of many in the game and is in fact a play style encouraged by the Devs.
Nor is the argument of "I don't want to lose my HO's that I used in a way that wasn't intended." more so if you knew it wasn't intended (which anyone who used them that way, I find it hard to believe they didn't know).
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Or do you believe that all such builds would contain a disclaimer saying "WARNING THE BUILD CONTAINS EXPLOITS"?
Check out "Local mans" highly popular (221 replies) very detailed guide "A Local Guide to Ill/Rad Controllers". Yet for all the detail no mention that this was an exploit! I'm SHOCKED.
From the guide "O Sets: Defense Debuff, ToHit Debuff Sets. At levels 47-50, the ideal slotting for RI is 3 Enzyme Hami-O's. RI is the perfect power for Enzymes (ToHitDebuff/DefenseDebuff/EndRdx), and no other power makes better use of Enzymes than RI -- 3 Enzymes will cap all three aspects of this power. The other nice thing about using Enzyme HO's is that you can take 3 slots out of RI and put them in some other powers without any loss whatsoever (other than set bonuses)."
Once again just because you knew it was an exploit, doesn not mean that every other player has the time, access and skill to know that.
You honestly think that someone who slots a power and then later has the power changed on them is the same as someone who mis-slots a power?
From the guide "O Sets: Defense Debuff, ToHit Debuff Sets. At levels 47-50, the ideal slotting for RI is 3 Enzyme Hami-O's. RI is the perfect power for Enzymes (ToHitDebuff/DefenseDebuff/EndRdx), and no other power makes better use of Enzymes than RI -- 3 Enzymes will cap all three aspects of this power. The other nice thing about using Enzyme HO's is that you can take 3 slots out of RI and put them in some other powers without any loss whatsoever (other than set bonuses)."
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I agree with the rest of your post, though.
I certainly hope they pass out some respecs considering the state of Dark Affinity. Both Fade and Soul Absorption are slated to change. The 15 second duration Fade that's on live right now is one that I can easily see many skipping only to be frustrated when it receives its buff.
But the change wasn't meaningful in a way that requires a free respec.
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And we've not been given a reason, so your proclamation that the change "wasn't meaningful in a way that requires a free respec" is (a) your opinion, which is no more or less valid than anyone else's, and (b) a subtle but important mischaracterization of what it was I actually said. See, I never used the word "require". You're welcome to look back at what you quoted, even. I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.
It made a change to a few mechanics, only one of which effects an attack, and it's one attack that can easily have it's IO's overlayed with others. The arguement of "Well I don't want to lose those enhancements" is not a reason for a free respec. Nor is the arguement of "I don't want to lose my HO's that I used in a way that wasn't intended." more so if you knew it wasn't intended (which anyone who used them that way, I find it hard to believe they didn't know). |
I don't need the respecs. It's not about needing them. It's not even about wanting them. It's about feeling that my spending extra money is seeming more important than the psychological contract that's developed between me and the makers of this game over the past seven years.
That's not a small thing, to me.
Now if they decided to, that's awesome! But this issue really didn't warrant it based on changes made. |
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
You honestly think that someone who slots a power and then later has the power changed on them is the same as someone who mis-slots a power?
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You know, back in the day when you didn't care if you lost your enhancement cuz you'd just buy a new one.
And just handing out free respecs, that just seems to go against the whole "Here we've put them in the market to make more money"
More so when there are free ones for being a vet, free ones to be found in game, and ones to be bought on the market.
Not saying I wouldn't pass it up. But I wouldn't expect them anymore. And like I (believe I) said, re were reissued new ones with Freedom. With the game it is today, I have to ask, do people need /that/ many respecs?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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The BrandX Collection
And you can state this because ... right, you can't. You don't have any inside track to that. Saying we can overlay IOs is no better an argument than saying we could buy a respec on the in-game market. In order to adjust to changes made to our powers by the devs we are having to expend our own resources. That's not how things have been done for quite some time, and if it's the new direction, it's not one I support.
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Respec, you get a trial to run three times, not to mention vet specs. You get plenty from those, and freedom re-newed them.
So, Freedom came out, you respeced that old stalker who used those three trial respecs, and have no vet specs left? Even with all the build help available to people, that wasn't available way back when?
*shrug* I just don't see why they should be expected to give them out. More so when they've released issues without giving a free one, even when powers had changes in the issue.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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The BrandX Collection
I stand by my previous statement that this represents a violation of the psychological contract that exists between the devs and the players, and that it concerns me as such.
If there's some piece of explanation that I've missed (I've looked at the dev and community digests, but don't frequent the "Freedom Friday" thing or have time for the Ustreams) I'd be fine with being educated on the topic. All I'm finding in my (admittedly cursory) searches is a lot of wind, and Zwill's "Sorry, not this time" up-thread.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
That's one possible interpretation of their actions. The other is that they choose not to give the free respec because they'd rather "encourage" purchasing respecs for real money. It saddens me that my inclination is to be more prone to believe the latter than the former, but that's where I find myself. I'd be satisfied with just about any explanation; no explanation is not something I view as acceptable, given the past few years' history surrounding this issue.
I stand by my previous statement that this represents a violation of the psychological contract that exists between the devs and the players, and that it concerns me as such. If there's some piece of explanation that I've missed (I've looked at the dev and community digests, but don't frequent the "Freedom Friday" thing or have time for the Ustreams) I'd be fine with being educated on the topic. All I'm finding in my (admittedly cursory) searches is a lot of wind, and Zwill's "Sorry, not this time" up-thread. |
We didn't always get a free respec with every issue, even with issues with powerset changes.
Paragon Studios is a business.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The BrandX Collection
Does it help at all that my psychological contract says "they want my money and I'm giving it to them"?
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That those once-complimentary things weren't always available doesn't change the overall perspective.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Why should PLAYERS have to spend a Respec they have earned with time and money to fix character issues caused by the Devs changes?
You have the power, you have it slotted, weren't respecs originally for changing powers, not keeping the enhancements?
You know, back in the day when you didn't care if you lost your enhancement cuz you'd just buy a new one. |
And just handing out free respecs, that just seems to go against the whole "Here we've put them in the market to make more money"
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More so when there are free ones for being a vet, free ones to be found in game, and ones to be bought on the market.
Not saying I wouldn't pass it up. But I wouldn't expect them anymore. And like I (believe I) said, re were reissued new ones with Freedom. With the game it is today, I have to ask, do people need /that/ many respecs? |
They can change enhancement slotting for an effective build.
They can change the order you take powers for exemplaring purposes.
They can change the other synchronizing powers you take and when you take them.
They can change the concept, looks, and feel of powers in ways that will make some Roleplayers tear their hair out.
They can affect PvP.
These issues and probably others are the result of the Devs actions, not the players.
The Respecs you mention require time and/or money and that's assuming you have not already used those Respecs for one of the reasons they were intended for. And by using one you no longer have it available at a later date for when you do screw up and need it.
And that's the point.
Why should PLAYERS have to spend a Respec they have earned with time and money to fix character issues caused by the Devs changes?
That's one possible interpretation of their actions. The other is that they choose not to give the free respec because they'd rather "encourage" purchasing respecs for real money.
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Edit: Oh and when they have given out freespecs due to major changes to power sets, they gave them to every character on our accounts regardless of whether or not they were affected by the change, yeah that screams that they are just after money.
A store-bought respec was one of the oldest options for purchase, and along with renames and server transfers, and predates Freedom by quite a bit. Freespecs have been given out in the past when a store-bought respec was one of the few offerings they had for micro-transactions, so I'm a little less inclined to assign devious motives for not getting one now.
The store-bought respec is there either for convenience (trading money for time saved), or for players that wanted to change a build so often that they've exhausted the other available options.
As others have mentioned, I would think the changes to stalkers, gravity sets, Hamidon enhancements, and the introduction of archetype enhancement sets would be enough of a reason for a freespec to be granted. They may also want to look at it as an opportunity to encourage the use of other store-bought enhancements too, though I personally won't take it that way.
I feel like I'm the last person who would be accused of going out of my way to see the worst in the devs. Given that, the lack of a freespec for changes this significant is eyebrow-raising. I have more respecs per character than I could use if I wanted to so in that sense I don't care one way or the other but if freespecs are done as a thing that is given out, that would be worrisome. That said, I don't think that this one data point is enough for us to say that they will never give out another freespec or that they would only do so grudgingly. We don't know what they're doing in April, for example.
If respecs go on sale in the market in the next couple months for 50% off, that's where you might consider complaining loudly on the forum. Failing that, well, there've been other issues that lacked freespecs and the sky didn't fall then.
I'm sort of holding out hope that maybe there will be a freespec once they get out the rest of the i22 changes (some of the Grav and Dark changes that rednames were planning didn't make it into this build). Zwillinger didn't technically deny this:
Currently, there are no plans to issue a free respec coinciding with the launch of Issue 22.
My apologies to anyone who may be disappointed by this. |
The changes to certain self-rez powers also require a respec to take advantage of, which has somehow avoided mention in this thread so far; in fact, trying to respec my /WP scrapper to grab the no-longer-trash Resurgence is how I discovered we hadn't gotten a freespec.
The Peacebringer, Regen, and Willpower self-rezzes gained 15-second damage immunity, turning them from glorified Awakens into usable combat rezzes. It's buried in the patch notes somewhere.
"while some people would say fish, cow, ambush!"-Ice9