City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Slighty concerned

Aett_Thorn

By Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-03-06 12:46 in Player Questions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
If you play at off-times, you will make progress on incarnate stuff. However, you will make it at a SIGNIFICANTLY slower pace than running even a single iTrial that week.
Slower pace > no pace. So what?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Slower pace > no pace. So what?
People want a reasonable pace. Yes, the rate today will be better than it was yesterday, but it's not at all reasonable in comparison to the trial rate.

People were asking for a solo path to incarnate that wouldn't take them a year to do.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry View Post
I'm not concerned in the least, except in that the solo incarnate progression path is much, much, much slower than the trial path.
Yep. And it is one reason my auto sub got turned off after being very much looking forward to I22.

I was looking forward to reasonable progression. Yes, it may be an MMO, but I play it because it has been a fun game, not because it is an MMO. I do not like being forced into teaming to keep progressing my favorite characters.

City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.

R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
I did say "likely".

The point is more that you're going to have three basic groups running the solo incarnate content.

1) "Hardcore" runners, who will be running it as much as possible, even so much as going through only the easiest content that gives the best rewards/time.

2) "Normal" players that don't have the time or inclination to do the trials, but will be running through all of the content, regardless of reward speed.

3) "Casual" players who may occasionally go into Dark Astoria, but won't do it every day or even week.


Now, the "Normal" faction is a tough one to define, since you're going to have players that only play a few days a week, or also have people that play every day, but probably wouldn't be considered hardcore players. But that is the group that you should be looking to balance it around.

If that group is taking months to achieve what trial runners can do in a day, then the progress rate is too slow. If the hardcore farmers can do it in a week, then it's still slower than the trials, though.
Something must be wrong here.

I don't think I've ever been in a group that is considered "Normal".

If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Justice View Post
Something must be wrong here.

I don't think I've ever been in a group that is considered "Normal".
We can create a fourth class, just for you.



Also, in before the "people just want a solo incarnate path that's as fast as the trial path." Because that's not the case at all. I think a third of the pace is more than fair, and it's not what we have now.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahzi View Post
On what server and play schedule, though? I know on Pinnacle, trials happen (very nearly exclusively) in the evenings, and I have heard complaints about such timing on the channels.

My home server is Pinnacle, though I do play on pretty much every English speaking server from time to time. Altitis, yeah, I got it.

I'm one of those people who "complain" about the timing of the itrials. Though to be honest, it's more observation than complaint. Mondays, Thursdays, Fridays and most Saturdays I am usually not online after 8pm eastern. Sunday there is the Talsorian Guard sponsored/lead Rikti Mothership Raid at 9:30pm eastern that I try and make sure I'm a part of every week. Sometimes itrials start up afterward, but the last few weeks they haven't been happening.

Anyway, I'm usually on more in the afternoon so would I like to see more itrials happen then? Of course I would.

Only real problem is that the server population (seemingly) can not support it. I won't use numbers to say how many people are on and playing when I'm on, simply because I don't have exact numbers and without them, anything I say is speculation.

So, on that note, do I welcome a solo Incarnate path even if that path is slower and not as rewarding as doing itrials? Yes, I welcome it with open arms. The solo path should be slower, but how much slower is what is being questioned.

I trust Bill and his observations. If I would have to hardcore farm the solo incarnate content for a month to equal what I could do in a weekend with itrials, that sounds too slow to me as well.

Considering I'm not likely to become a hardcore farmer, nor are a lot of other players, that would probably mean the solo incarnate path for an "average" player would be more equal to several months of the solo incarnate path to equal what could be done in a weekend on itrials. That is way too slow.

I haven't touched Beta to see for myself all the new content that's coming our way. I decided after the last issue that I tend to play the Beta too much and when it hits live I'm burned out since nothing is new to me and start looking forward to the next issue.

I think that what I will do is take a level 50 character that hasn't done ANY incarnate work yet and see how far along I get before I give up. Apparently the Alpha slot can be unlocked with the solo path so I want to start at ground zero to get a good indication. I may even keep a journal of my progress just so I have a record.

Something tells me though that I will be giving up on this little test rather quickly as not only am I working on getting one of my older 50's incarnated, but I know I'll be making a few alts, what with Darkness control and new changes to Stalkers and of course 2xp weekend coming up.

Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Slower pace > no pace. So what?
Yea, damning with faint praise - I love that.

It's better than a kick in the head too.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
Also, in before the "people just want a solo incarnate path that's as fast as the trial path." Because that's not the case at all. I think a third of the pace is more than fair, and it's not what we have now.
I'm not sure how "fair" works into this at all... or who actually determines "fairness." Perhaps you should use "reasonable" instead:

I don't think it's fair that there is a solo path at all but I understand the desire for one and think that having one is a reasonable compromise. It's not fair becuase I busted my hump getting 25 level 50s to tier three on all their incarnate slots by forming leagues, training folks on how to do trials, and basically streamlining the whole trial process for my leagues. Is it fair that someone can come along and get the same rewards without doing the leg work? No, I don't think so. I also don't think it's fair that people come on trials and leech and never run one themselves but are more than happy to ciriticize me and my cohort on how we do things. But I understand that it's reasonable for someone who may not have the inclination or the desire to lead to be a member of my league. I believe it's reasonable for someone without good people skills or who is nervous about running leagues to not want to lead them.

Completely different tone between "reasonable" and "fair." Either we are having a grown up conversation or we're in kindergarten... your choice.

Badge-Hunter: @Dogma
CIT: @Dogma
XFire: BrckaLo
Playfire: BrckaLo
GamerDNA: CoHDogma

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
I'm not sure how "fair" works into this at all... or who actually determines "fairness." Perhaps you should use "reasonable" instead:

I don't think it's fair that there is a solo path at all but I understand the desire for one and think that having one is a reasonable compromise. It's not fair becuase I busted my hump getting 25 level 50s to tier three on all their incarnate slots by forming leagues, training folks on how to do trials, and basically streamlining the whole trial process for my leagues. Is it fair that someone can come along and get the same rewards without doing the leg work? No, I don't think so. I also don't think it's fair that people come on trials and leech and never run one themselves but are more than happy to ciriticize me and my cohort on how we do things. But I understand that it's reasonable for someone who may not have the inclination or the desire to lead to be a member of my league. I believe it's reasonable for someone without good people skills or who is nervous about running leagues to not want to lead them.

Completely different tone between "reasonable" and "fair." Either we are having a grown up conversation or we're in kindergarten... your choice.
Seriously? I might agree with your overall point, but your last line sounds ridiculously childish. "More than fair" is a phrase that is used to mean a lot of things. One of those meanings is "reasonable" when used in normal conversation. Saying that people using the word "fair" are in kindergarten is asinine.

You have 25 level 50 characters already incarnated out. People who don't like trials would have zero right now (or maybe one with doing nothing but Shard conversions). Is that fair? How about having to take 30 times longer than you to get one character incarnated out? Is that fair? Is it fair that people who are actually doing stuff will get rewards slower than those leachers you complain of?

Basically, you've had your incarnates for a lot longer than people who don't like the trials, and farming the same content over and over again. When people were asking for a solo incarnate path, they were hoping for a way to do it at a reasonable (or fair) pace without having to farm. And that's not what we got.


And let's see what the thesaurus says:

Quote:
Main Entry: fair
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: mediocre, satisfactory
Synonyms: adequate, all right, average, common, commonplace, decent, fairish, indifferent, intermediate, mean, medium, middling, moderate, not bad, okay, ordinary, passable, pretty good, reasonable, respectable, satisfactory, so-so, tolerable, up to standard, usual

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

I like both the players posts. I might not have mentioned them by name to kick this off and just started discussing the issue lol.

Anyways, I hated the drop rate for the original trials, came close to rage quitting the game, and deleted a fully I/O'd Tank i was planning to run for all 2011 experiment based on his epic fail in the trials and very regular thread table reward. So, I am saddened to hear the solo drop rate in DA is well on target for that type of situation.

I will however be diving into this content with my meanest character, an Elec/Elec Scrapper that is mean as a wet cat. He is fully incarnated at many and alternate tier 4s. I will be farming DA for the promise of Catalysts, which I understand might drop faster solo there. Wish me luck. I'll also drop a line in a few weeks here to let peeps know my progress. In fact, since many honored posters here are data junkies I will commit to fully logging my DA work with this character and the rewards I gather. When i post in a few weeks i will post my build, my time invested, how I used the time, what I received. I'm to lazy to correlate that into detailed argument about the situation. But if you know me you definitely know I will offer my opinion based on my perceived experience. And maybe someone can use the actual data points in a useful way.

 

Posted

This thread scares me. I haven't dug into the beta forums or tried out the beta. Perhaps I should have, but I enjoy surprises. Well, good surprises. I'm hoping they didn't base the rest of the incarnate path on the current sluggish droprate on shards. (Which shouldn't even exist anymore... Do they?)

Why do we get regular XP when solo? When someone successfully argues that we shouldn't, I'll concede that content like the incarnate system should be multiplayer only. Incarnate XP is nothing more than a continuation of a character's progression after we no longer get regular XP. Saying we can't continue progressing our characters after 50 is like saying we can no longer get regular XP solo after, say, Level 30. The only difference I see with Incarnate vs Regular XP is that one is VIP only. Most free games have a level cap for the free-to-play content. This is ours.

Why don't we get significantly less regular XP when solo? I'm talking 10th of what we currently get, since IMHO that is pretty comparable to the current solo Shards vs iTrials ratio. Is the current progression with regular XP so utterly borked that folks feel we have to re-invent the wheel? This game always rewarded people for grouping (bonus XP, faster drop rates), and rewarded a player(s) for doing content (mission XP, and more recently reward merits). Why is this so difficult to apply to the incarnate system? Do we have to instead turn a game into a chore? Make it reasonable (not a life-long devotion) for someone to solo, give groups a faster way gain than they would have on thier own, and give the best rewards for the big named content (iTrials). Sound familiar? Ya, it's what we've been doing all along.

I'm just at a loss here. Perhaps I'm just not overthinking this enough or something.

CoH has been unique in the sea of cloned MMOs.There are years of possibilities still
in such a well designed, well supported and well loved game.Shutting it down now doesn't
make sense on any level except, perhaps, on some spreadsheet�s bottom line. I do not
consider this an act of a company that has the interests of its customers at heart.This
calls into question why I would want to be part of any further ventures involving NCSoft.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
Seriously? I might agree with your overall point, but your last line sounds ridiculously childish. "More than fair" is a phrase that is used to mean a lot of things. One of those meanings is "reasonable" when used in normal conversation. Saying that people using the word "fair" are in kindergarten is asinine.
I didn't say people who use the word "fair" are in kindergarten. Words are important in a medium that is completly dependent on them. I'm merely suggestiing that folks should choose wisely their words in order to ensure that they point they are making comes across accurately and succinctly. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I was only trying to inform how it came across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
You have 25 level 50 characters already incarnated out. People who don't like trials would have zero right now (or maybe one with doing nothing but Shard conversions). Is that fair? How about having to take 30 times longer than you to get one character incarnated out? Is that fair? Is it fair that people who are actually doing stuff will get rewards slower than those leachers you complain of?
You don't like trials => you don't do trials => you don't get rewards. Seems more than fair to me... in fact, that seems completely reasonable and down right logical. Try this one:

I don't like Task Forces => I don't do Task Forces => I don't get Task Force Commander Accolade.
That also seems fair...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
Basically, you've had your incarnates for a lot longer than people who don't like the trials, and farming the same content over and over again. When people were asking for a solo incarnate path, they were hoping for a way to do it at a reasonable (or fair) pace without having to farm. And that's not what we got.
There are 6 (7 now) trials. One speed run through each trial will generally yield unlocks of the first two incarnate powers, interface and judgement. A second run through will yield unlocks of the remaining two slots, lore and destiny (Alpha unlock is ignored here since all that is required is one arc in Ouro to unlock). My experience has been that I receive enough astrals, emperians and threads to slot each power to tier 3. Two run throughs of 6 different trials doesn't sound like farming/grinding to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
And let's see what the thesaurus says:
And yet, "fair" and "reasonable" are two distinct words. I suggested replacing one with the other since they are in fact synonyms that carry different, perhaps subtle, meanings and tone.

Badge-Hunter: @Dogma
CIT: @Dogma
XFire: BrckaLo
Playfire: BrckaLo
GamerDNA: CoHDogma

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
People want a reasonable pace. Yes, the rate today will be better than it was yesterday, but it's not at all reasonable in comparison to the trial rate.

People were asking for a solo path to incarnate that wouldn't take them a year to do.

/this. 100%.

Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Slower pace > no pace. So what?
1 cent > nothing while true doesn't mean 1 cent is worth making an exertion to get so if the pace is too slow no one will use it and all the developer time spent on it is wasted.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
I don't think it's fair that there is a solo path at all....
I find it difficult to take your argument serious after that line. You might as well say it's not fair for people to level to 50 by soloing because you always did it with a team (both reasonings are completely flawed). But just like being on a team is faster than being solo, so should the incarnate path. If teaming was just as efficient over soloing during the journey to 50 as it is in iTrials, you'd be hearing just as much complaint.

Flippantly telling others they should just be happy there's a solo path at all isn't effective or constructive. You may as well be telling people to be happy there's a game to play at all when they're asking for improved game mechanics and bug fixes.

@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
You don't like trials => you don't do trials => you don't get rewards. Seems more than fair to me... in fact, that seems completely reasonable and down right logical. Try this one:

I don't like Task Forces => I don't do Task Forces => I don't get Task Force Commander Accolade.
Comparing accolade achievements (completely optional to leveling up) to the new system of character advancement (a process of leveling up) is a straw man argument at best.

People who don't have a schedule that works well with iTrial formats don't end up having any other alternative to level up. At least before level 50 you have options that work with solo play. But if solo play is what you're mostly limited to, offering a reasonable alternative should mean it's worth the time it takes.

Trials should always be faster, no one's arguing against that. But if it takes too long to do solo, you're only chasing away a part of the player base. Does that sound good to you?

@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Slower pace > no pace. So what?
My father-in-law needs a kidney transplant. He's been waiting for years, but slower pace is certainly better than no chance at all. That's a life. My oldest daughter is behind on her reading skills, so we put the extra effort into helping her catch up. She's getting there, but it's worth it regardless how long it takes.

This is a freak'n game. Recreation. What you are saying is comparable to the legal drinking age being lowered to 20, but anyone 20 can only drink one beverage every month and can only purchase it directly from one store in the state. But, hey, they lowered the drinking age!

There's a point that "just existing" is just not worth the effort in anyone's part.

CoH has been unique in the sea of cloned MMOs.There are years of possibilities still
in such a well designed, well supported and well loved game.Shutting it down now doesn't
make sense on any level except, perhaps, on some spreadsheet�s bottom line. I do not
consider this an act of a company that has the interests of its customers at heart.This
calls into question why I would want to be part of any further ventures involving NCSoft.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightbender View Post
Why don't we get significantly less regular XP when solo? I'm talking 10th of what we currently get,
Because if the solo path gave something equivalent to Trial XP to single players, then a team of 8 could do the solo content at something like 10x the current Trial rate.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
Exactly. My post wasn't an argument for or against a solo path, I was just illustrating a point.
Caution needs to be exercised when trying to illustrate one point that one does not instead make a clearer picture of a completely unintended point.

The only two points I took from your post I really don't think were what you intended.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Because if the solo path gave something equivalent to Trial XP to single players, then a team of 8 could do the solo content at something like 10x the current Trial rate.
1) No one is asking for a rate that high.

2) No it wouldn't.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rylas View Post
Comparing accolade achievements (completely optional to leveling up) to the new system of character advancement (a process of leveling up) is a straw man argument at best.
Illustrating a point again. Players won't get the rewards if they don't do the task, regardless of their reasoning. No comparison between the tasks was intended outside of that.

Badge-Hunter: @Dogma
CIT: @Dogma
XFire: BrckaLo
Playfire: BrckaLo
GamerDNA: CoHDogma

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
Illustrating a point again. Players won't get the rewards if they don't do the task, regardless of their reasoning. No comparison between the tasks was intended outside of that.
So your intention was to not have a point?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Because if the solo path gave something equivalent to Trial XP to single players, then a team of 8 could do the solo content at something like 10x the current Trial rate.
That's a bold assertion given that 8 people charging through the DA content are lucky if they get 1/10 of the trial progression.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Klaw_ View Post
ED, iTrial drop rates, 20 hour cooldowns, pvp, Atlas Park revamp, Villain maps vs Hero maps, moon zone, Zwill Tangents, Maintenance times....
lol - my thought too... Couldn't help myself from thinking "Op, must be new here",
doubly so if BillZ disagreeing with GG is in *any* way even slightly surprising...


As for solo progression, I too am in BillZ's camp, but I like SwellGuy's point that
"some > none", so I'll look at it as a mildly encouraging start for soloists.


Regards,
4

I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.