Thought Experiment: The Best Multi-Build

Preface: This is not a thread for posting builds. I can't enforce this as a rule, but I ask for your cooperation to keep this discussion healthy until the time comes that we try to make something out of it.
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In contrast to the tone of this thread, which is provocative satire, the idea hit me that we as a community could try to construct not the best single build, but the best character with an assortment of powers using the 3 alternate build slots available to it.

Typical "bests" include the following:

• High damage. Usually total output over time rather than spikes. It's hard to out-spike a Stalker, for instance, but not so tough to out-DPS them.
• High survivability. Defense is the everlasting flavor of the month for this one, but it can only get you so far. For proper survivability, we'll be wanting a good mix of Resistance, Defense and likely some heals.
• Soloing tough targets. Sometimes it's the high DPS, others is the -Regen, but it's always about out-living the adversary and winning the fight. This includes Arch-villains and Giant Monsters of various flavors. A note that this requires some focus on single-target attacks.
• Soloing many targets. When it comes to farming, you want to destroy the most enemies in the fastest way you can. This brings a strong focus on AoE attacks, possibly debuffs and a good deal of survivability. If you're not at the aggro cap, you can totally do better.
• Melee damage. Getting in close and punching them in the face. Not much more is as satisfying as that.
• Ranged damage. Laying down pain everywhere you go, striking the fool who tries to flee. Nothing says godly like the wielder of destruction.
• Crowd Control. When the enemy can't do anything else, at least they can still wimper and wet themselves, amirite?
• Team contributions. Tanking and damage are both ways to contribute to a team, but if you can do all of the above, the team is more likely to be treated as tag-alongs anyway. For the purpose of this thought experiment, we're going to ignore ally buffs/heals/whatever and focus on solo content.

Obviously, no one build can be the best at all of this. But we get 3 build slots to choose from, so perhaps one character can do all of this? One build for GM soloing, one build for map clearing... you get the idea.

Each of the Archetypes boards are filled with ideas, suggestions and builds to make characters that are especially apt at each of the things listed above. There's a lot of good insight in our community, so bringing that all together could be quite an interesting thing indeed.
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Brutes and Scrappers tend to have the advantage, since they're basically invincible and offensive powerhouses out of the box. They're not so keen on ranged damage, though, but most people don't seem to mind.

Dominators, and to a lesser extent Controllers, can batter enemies upside the head in total safety thanks to the crowd control. Controllers aren't as high on damage, but they do get access to some potent buffs and debuffs (Fulcrum Shift <3) that in some cases will push them beyond the capabilities of a Dominator.

Tankers are as sturdy as it gets. They'll always be the most survivable due to a combination of high protective attributes and just higher HP in general. The main problem with Tankers is that their damage is significantly lower than those of Scrapper and Brute, but with the right assortment of powers, they can be made to work as offensive characters.

Blasters pwn the crap out of everything, so long as they have protection. They don't do as much damage as Scrappers (even ranged damage on Scrapper is as good as Blaster), but they specialize in ranged and location AoEs that have a much larger effect area than anything Scrappers get. The Blaster's primary weakness is a combination of no protection along with low HP. All of the epic archetypes have less HP than Blaster, but they get self protection, so you generally don't have to think about it.

Speaking of which, all of the epic archetypes. Like Dominator, they do a little bit of everything, along with the added benefit of self protection. They all get mez protection, although Warshade has to shapeshift for it. They all get ranged and melee attacks, personal shields, control powers... Some have heals, some have pets, but they're all pretty vicious in battle. The main sticking point is that their damage, especially compared to the above, isn't as impressive. But when you can do everything, does it really matter if you're the best at nothing?

For the purposes of this thought experiment, I'd like to avoid the epic archetypes. They're considerably more restricted in their variety, and something like "a Warshade" is all the more thought you'd need to put into it. Let's pick one of the standard archetypes and see what we can do with it.

Masterminds are a curious mix of DPS, buff/debuff and aggro control, which is something no other archetype can lay claim to. With well-protected and suped-up pets, Masterminds can be a sight to behold, busting down tough targets and many weaker targets in short order.

Stalkers are good and are about to become better, but every single possible combination of power sets is excessively limited in the AoE department. I can't say this is a viable archetype for this experiment.
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So here's what we need to put together:

• A character that is not an Epic Archetype
• Very high single-target DPS in one build
• Very high multi-target DPS in another build
• Very high survivability in both builds (not exclusively Defense or Resistance)
• A mix of ranged damage, melee damage and crowd control (though this one's less important)
• Able to solo Arch-Villains and Giant Monsters; the faster the better
• Able to solo an aggro cap of +4s; the faster the better

So... I guess the place to start is, what archetype would be best for this? If only Brutes got Spines...

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I would like to put forward my Bots/traps build.

Trip Mine counts as melee if I drop it on someone's toe, right?

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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

I'm melee centric, after many years on Brutes. I also have about 3 firm (not concrete, but firm) rules, and 15 suggestions that influence all my logic in creating characters. But I submit my "Main" as a solid suggestion for this topic.

I use the Elec/Elec/Mu Scrapper, softcapped to S/L. I have of course incarnated him, season to your taste there, but rebirth's regen gives a solid when things get ugly. I run all 3 leadership toggles, and somehow still manage the End craziness with minimal trouble (10 toggles). He has decent range AoE, incredible PBAoE, and solid ST. I say he "doesn't tank" on any team/trial that starts asking. He does not have taunt, and his armors are not "perfect", but for 90% of game content, he tanks. AND I can farm huge maps when I need to. I find myself scrapper locked of course, but with this character I scrapper lock on long hallways of mobs to solo. Few things drop him, even without insp, and when I pop a mid/lg purp and orange before I jump in, the mobs are just useless against him.

I have never solo'd an AV or GM on him. Came close once with some really confused lowbies stalking the GM in Perez. Took 5 minutes trying for me to get the location from them. They kept inviting me to their team even though I was on a incarnate 50 and they were low level and I kept trying to explain it. I finally just dived at the GM, not sure if out of frustration with the discussion or what. They joined me about a minute later, seemed to confuse them. I know the lowbie GMs are cake though.

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Maybe I'm just a cynic or not uber enough but I think a bit of elaboration might be useful here.

What groups do you want included in should be able to solo 4x8 quickly?

Malta
Carnies
Council
Nemesis
Cot
DE
Rularu
Longbow
Arachnos

etc. That way you don't have people cherry picking cot/council and making broad statements. To me I doubt you'd find a build that is mostly indifferent to the enemy type.

GM's/AV's Forgive me I don't know as well, but I think the same is true.

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We'll be shooting for any enemy group and any AV/GM. Farming a map of Fire-only enemies with Fiery Aura isn't all that impressive.

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Are we talking 4/8 or 0/4 ?

Incarnates Yes or No ?

I would say some sort of Traps toon because of the all the mix they give you buff and debuff wise.

Traps Fire or Traps Sonic ?

Because your challenge includes both range and melee many melee types are out.

Traps does as Dechs mentioned Trip Mine and Time Bomb which are melee attacks. Maybe not the best but I think when comparing it to others ATs I think its a winner because you could get the best melee from a scrapper per say but you would be loosing out in the range department. So my thoughts are its the best compromise if that makes sense.

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1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

I would think that the AT for this would have to be either a kheld or SOA just given the vast differences in how you can build them.

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I'd just like to quote this guy... : http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...18&postcount=1

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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!

SS/Fire/Soul Brute.

It really doesn't matter what the enemy group is at +4/x8, by the time they've recovered from Footstomp you've already dropped Burn and hit them with Dark Obliteration, and I'm pretty sure the couple of Lt's and bosses that remain will die soon enough.

/thread

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1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

Fury can be generated and kept with just one mob. Slightly slower curve at first. And with the new Brute ATO even easier, and peak slightly higher. But I have run a SS/Fire/Soul Brute, and much like my Elec/Elec/Mu Scrapper above I would have concerns about whether it could solo AVs and GMs. I never did it on mine, and would not have wanted to try. Incredible Ghetto Blaster though. AoEs everywhere.

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Bots/Time/Mace...

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SS/FA/Soul Brute should have the ST DPS to solo an AV. Not sure on the GMs, but for those, I personally worry less, as I just go with the idea of AVs being tough super battles, and GMs being those things that bring a father of super heroes together.

Now for these builds, are we looking at incarnate powers included or not?

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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

I would say a Soldier gets it. Crab build for most of it. Get's good resists and can easily cap all positions, a large heal/+HP power and full mez protection is covered. Massive AoE, can hold agro while army of 8 Arachnos pets destroy AV/GMs in no time (I'm adding in Arachnos Lore for pure flavor). Ranged and melee damage available, and I'm sure someone could manage to toss in a decent amount of KB control in there. And let's not forget VG debuffing.

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^He said no epic AT's.


I'm still very new with all the IO sets and what not, but it seems like with set bonuses, patron/epic powers like charged armor and temp invul on top of fighting, and three +DEF pool toggles... it seems like significant defense is available to any AT you want if you invest enough slots and picks.

If we're allowed to dedicate the whole build to single and the whole alt build to AoE... Can we talk about the more power/slot efficient sets for Defenders, Corruptors, and blasters? or do the defense stat particulars behind the scenes reserve this thread for melee AT's?



I have a dark/mm blaster I'm working on that I would like to put in as food for thought.


Single Target
Dark Blast can chain gloom/abyssal/siphon life (Maybe even just gloom/life drain with enough recharge?) and put out retarded single damage while self healing and accuracy debuffing over and over. That leaves a LOT of room in a build for dedicating to set bonuses and patron/pool powers and you've got a long list of random power types to pick from to open up sets. Any blast is a to hit debuff set, sniper blast in there, immobilize, etc.

Drain Psyche is giving you -regen for the AV's and GM's, and +recovery/+regen for yourself.

You've also got Mind Probe's -40% recharge. Not sure if it stacks with itself or even works on AV's but it's such a high effect and you're spamming it Maybe drop abyssal and get Mind Probe if you can't get enough recharge while maintaining sufficient defense through set picks.



PBAoE
World of Confusion isn't much damage, but there's a very nasty purple set for confusion only that might fit the build (5% ranged def.)

Pyschic Shockwave would be one PBAoE and it does some good damage while -50% recharge debuffing 16 targets, but realistically you'd probably have to dance around and throw in cones to really lay down the AoE with dark/mm.

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I'm telling you guys, My Bots/traps.

AoE? Let the bots shoot things.
ST? Tell the bots to shoot one thing.

Range is easy. For melee, teamport in.

You'll have trouble finding a more survivable build thanks to several softcapped positions/types, a resistance shield and bodyguard mode. Aid Self and other, plus the bots are softcapped and I have mez protection.

I've got provoke to be the tank on the team and the full traps arsenal of buffs and debuffs. What more do you want?

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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

I've thought for a while now that a Fire/Cold corr was "the best" at the most things.

For aoe - Sleet + Fireball(s) + Rain of Fire kills the masses

For st - Benumb (for -regen on high HP foes) + Sleet + Blaze + Fire Blast gets the job done

Survivable? Def is easy enough to build up. Fog provides some level of resists, throw Tough in there too. No native heals but Aid Self if that's required. Personally a couple of columns of greens suffices.

Melee damage? No, not sure why this matters unless you're fighting Hami yellows.

Crowd Control? Sleet's knockdown and other Cold effects to slow enemies keep them in Rain of Fire while they attempt to flee.

Team Contributions? In addition to the above, there are Cold shields for teammates and Arctic Fog's +def, +res and underrated slow resists.

Anyway, out of my 50s (which include many of those mentioned above, like bots/traps, ss/fire, or ill/rad (not mentioned yet, but someone will)), this is the one I regard as the most flexible and not as a "Jack of all trades, master of none", but rather a master of many trades.

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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

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Strangely, I've been thinking about this from the opposite direction. Specifically, creating a challenge arc that wasn't designed to throw everything possible in a single mission, but the reverse: have a set of five missions that were designed to represent what you normally see in the game, but at its maximum possible difficulty. Given the limits of the AE, I've been wondering what the best possible way of doing that is, given the five mission limit of an AE arc.

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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)