City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

A whacky debate on the Hulk...

Acemace

By Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-02-26 16:15 in Tankers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet Barrage View Post
How the heck did Johnny get off of my ignore list?
It doesn't matter, people are going to quote him anyway. He may be a terrible player in-game, but he knows how to get forum aggro.

 

Posted

The Incredible Hulk is one of my all time favorites so I feel the need to weight in on this one. He's easily a ss/* brute. The more angry he got, the stronger he got in all forms (except that lame one were he turned back into banner). In the Grey and "Professor" hulk he was slower to anger but would still rage. For examples I point to the issue where Fixit "killed" the godling Glorian for messing with his mind and issue 400 where his anger over the Leader's meddling caused him to ignore Rick Jones and bring the house down.

His declarations of being the strongest came at 2 times, after he stomped someone or when an enemy thought he was getting the upper hand. So in truth The Hulk actually got both stronger and tougher as he got angrier. But his mind has always been his weakness, though considerably stronger then most it was the most often way he was "beaten".

For secondary he breaks a lot of rules. He has as said a combination of Willpower, Invulnerability, and Regeneration. True he had tough skin but his healing rivaled Wolverine's.
I'd say fast healing, high pain threshold, temp invulnerability, iron will, tough hide, resist energy and elements, reconstruction, dull pain, rttc, invulnerability, instant healing, resilience, quick recovery. Hulk didn't crash.

As for a build, he'd have capped health and resists, except for psionics, defense not capped but close, like 40% regeneration at 800% without instant healing. Perma'd dull pain and rage.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Incidentally, I don't believe Hercules is a Tanker either.
There's really only four Tankers, as the AT is presently, in Marvel comics that come to mind:

Unus the Untouchable
http://www.comicvine.com/unus/29-3438/

Cannon Fodder
http://www.comicvine.com/cf/29-40997/

Butter Ball
http://www.comicvine.com/butterball/29-54440/

and arguably Mr. Immortal
http://www.comicvine.com/mr-immortal/29-2486/


Everyone else has considerable offensive might, which makes them Brutes or Scrappers of varying levels of power.

.
Juggernaut, although superstrong, is more known for being unstoppable (and for being uber durable). In a lot of his encounters, it wasn't the fact that he could pound you into the ground without breaking a sweat, it was that he simply couldn't be taken down without using psi powers, generally.

Quote:
Nice Ideon. That's quite appropriate for Hulk. Although he does have a Rage crash; That would be Bruce Banner mode.
That's why I didn't add a Revive power of any kind, Hulk turns into Banner when he's "defeated", haha.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ideon View Post
Juggernaut, although superstrong, is more known for being unstoppable (and for being uber durable). In a lot of his encounters, it wasn't the fact that he could pound you into the ground without breaking a sweat, it was that he simply couldn't be taken down without using psi powers, generally.
Nope. Juggy is still a Brute. An extremely well-built Brute, but a Brute.
Juggernaut does not operate like a tank. He doesn't serve only as a distraction. He's not defensive minded or overly concerned with his team, he plows straight ahead and makes short work of whatever is in front of him. That screams Brute. He doesn't chip away at minions with a T1 attack. He doesn't stand there, shouting insults at his enemies, while his teammates do most of the damage.

On the Marvel wiki, both his Durability and Strength are rated 7 out of 7. If he was a Tanker, his durability would be 7, but his Strength would only be 3-4.

Additionally, his offensive power has been right up there with the World War-level Hulk, a Brute who's Fury bar was locked at max for that crossover. If Juggy was a Tanker, his damage would have capped out long before that point.

Juggernaut is a Brute. He doesn't hit like a little girl.



.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Nope. Juggy is still a Brute. An extremely well-built Brute, but a Brute.
Juggernaut does not operate like a tank.
I am not certain... he may not operate like a tank, but that doesn't mean he isn't one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
He doesn't serve only as a distraction.
Not only, but he is a big one, and you have to plan around that when you have him/his team right away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
He's not defensive minded
Debatable. His very invulnerability - at the core of his description - seems pretty defensive. So much so that he doesn't have to be defensive minded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
or overly concerned with his team, he plows straight ahead and makes short work of whatever is in front of him.
This may be the nature of his attacks as much as anything. In some ways like the Vorpal Judgement, that it is directional, and it requires that he "GO". Spring attack, shield charge, etc. come to mind. These are AT defined.

And charging ahead doesn't mean you aren't tanking. In fact, steam roll teaming with a lead tank fits that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
That screams Brute.
Not so much. I could go either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
He doesn't chip away at minions with a T1 attack. He doesn't stand there, shouting insults at his enemies, while his teammates do most of the damage.
I can easily conceptualize different ways a tank can achieve the in game mechanics of aggro control.


(And I'm skipping response to your normal tank don't do damage drum beat.)

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
...
If I was wrong about Tankers, anyone who truly felt they were fine would know it and wouldn't feel like they had to defend squat to me. They wouldn't be insulted...unless they're not so sure I'm completely off the mark...
That's actually a decent point. When someone rips up high performing ATs (Trollers, Brutes,...) people don't really take them seriously. No one jumps to the fore defending them because them don't need defending.

Now, other ATs (Stalkers, Peacebringers) have droves of both detractors and valiant defenders. One brings up point after point how said AT sucks, the other goes to great lengths to prove said ATs are just as good (if not better) as other ATs. Interesting debates, but I've seen few similar debates about the Brute AT as a whole.

Tankers, in my experience, are also the subject many of these types of debates. Does that mean anything? Dunno, I just know the oppurtunity to defend the Merits of my SS/WP Brute never comes up.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
The entire story could easily be fabricated and probably was?
The alternative is that you have such a pathological need to prove tankers are always inferior, that even when given an easy way out like "Electric Armor is one of the best tanker sets around, and especially for the critter distribution in question" you still must assume that *no* tanker could *ever* have more *useful* survivability than *any* brute and thus the most likely explanation is a game mechanical glitch or a lie. Not that an Electric tank could ever outsurvive a Willpower brute, because brutes always have enough survivability to make the extra survivability of tankers irrelevant.

This theory seems to explain everything much better, I think.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The alternative is that you have such a pathological need to prove tankers are always inferior
Not so. Tankers aren't always inferior. If there was a contest for going "Uh-hurrr!" and punching your open palm with your opposing fist, Tankers would probably take first place every time.

And I'm sure Tankers deserve some kind of award for rolling over and letting Brutes steal Fury from them.





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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socorro View Post
That's actually a decent point. When someone rips up high performing ATs (Trollers, Brutes,...) people don't really take them seriously. No one jumps to the fore defending them because them don't need defending.
This is the Tank forum. We feel the need to taunt trolls to keep them here and not bother the other AT forums.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ideon View Post
Hulk cheats by being an NPC, so that means he's allowed to have an unholy combination of Invulnerability, Willpower and Regeneration. :3

His powerset would be something like:

1: Resist Physical Damage AND Temp Invulnerability
2: High Pain Tolerance AND Fast Healing AND Resist Elements AND Resist Energies
3: Dull Pain AND Instant Healing
4: Unyielding AND Indomitable Will
5: Invincibility AND Rise to the Challenge
6: Quick Recovery AND Resilience
7: Tough Hide AND Quickness (from Super Reflexes, the cheat!)
8: Rage (and with no damage debuff crash, just because it's the Hulk)
9: Unstoppable (but with no crash like Statesman)
If I was going to build the Hulk's power sets with just 9 powers:

1: High Pain Tolerance
2: True Strength
3: Resilience
4: Entropic Aura
5: Invincibility
6: Rise to the Challenge
7: Against All Odds
8: Quick Recovery
9: Integration

Edit:

I think it would probably make sense to switch out Resilience for Temporary Invulnerability.

 

Posted

Johnny:


"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." ~Jonathan Swift


Keep up the good work.




PS: Hulk would be a SS/WP Brute since WP has a resistance and regeneration with psionic protection. It just would not be called Will Power though. Invulneration .... Regenability ..lol I dont know.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age View Post
Johnny:


"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." ~Jonathan Swift


Keep up the good work.
Arcanaville's a dunce now?

 

Posted

Heeheehee...

Of course, the reality is that Hulk is a completely broken, cheating combination of things beyond what is attainable as a player in this game...
That being said.
I do believe, thematically, Hulk is Brute incarnate!

Hulk is really more of a SS/Inv/Regen/WP GM!!



His invulnerability is greater than most... As is his regenerative properties.
So, he really has both defensive barriers at extreme levels.

Within the confines of this game, however, I do think that Will Power best represents this (with its combination of survivability benefits).
Still, I couldn't argue with /Regen... And I couldn't argue against /Inv either... But I'd pick /WP as the medium in-between the two.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age View Post
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." ~Jonathan Swift
Off topic, but that is a singularly awful metric for attempting to identify genius.

There are far too many dunces and far too many ways to be wrong.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age View Post

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." ~Jonathan Swift

"...A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject..."

W. S. Churchill



Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down View Post

"...A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject..."

W. S. Churchill



Churchhill also said:

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."



Johnny Butane also said something along the lines of this:

"If someone in real life had superpowers the US government would not tolerate any individual that powerful that they could not directly control.


Really, it has to come down to you or them. Like you said, either you seize control, or those in control will destroy you."


and I believe he also said:


"This is why Democracy(Majority Rule) does not work"


Now thats what I'm taking about. More of my kind of language. Anyone who talks like this has imagination and has potential to get **** done. You talk to any American dunce on the street and this moron could not even fathom any alternative form of government other than the impotent system we have in place although he spends his nights drinking while criticizing that system and the corrupt politicians. Yet dispite his resentment to the system this guy is too stupid to accept or offer an alternative.




The game has changed with IOs and all. Tankers have not improved as much with it in my view. IOs make it more logical to roll something else. Hulk would not be caught dead being a Tanker.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
Heeheehee...

Of course, the reality is that Hulk is a completely broken, cheating combination of things beyond what is attainable as a player in this game...
That being said.
I do believe, thematically, Hulk is Brute incarnate!

Hulk is really more of a SS/Inv/Regen/WP GM!!


His invulnerability is greater than most... As is his regenerative properties.
So, he really has both defensive barriers at extreme levels.

Within the confines of this game, however, I do think that Will Power best represents this (with its combination of survivability benefits).
Still, I couldn't argue with /Regen... And I couldn't argue against /Inv either... But I'd pick /WP as the medium in-between the two.
Good points.

The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

"If you want to make enemies, try to change something."
Woodrow Wilson -


"Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — 'No, you move.'"
Captain America -



.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
"Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — 'No, you move.'"
Captain America -
.
I think the more pressing question is what AT and powersets are Captain America. I think shield is obvious, is he a scrapper, tanker or brute? How about that primary? what is that, MA with the alternate animations or Street Justice? We also know he has crafted the temp revolver power.

The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
I think the more pressing question is what AT and powersets are Captain America. I think shield is obvious, is he a scrapper, tanker or brute? How about that primary? what is that, MA with the alternate animations or Street Justice? We also know he has crafted the temp revolver power.
I would lean towards saying he's a Street Justice/Shield Scrapper who has taken his Confront.

He's supposed to have been trained in several martial arts including judo as well as western boxing(which isn't entirely useful on the battlefield), but he's usually just depicted as brawling his enemies with an occasional roundhouse or fancy bit thrown in. Ultimate Cap definitely skews towards pure Street Justice, with a dirtier, more realistic and pragmatic fighting style.

He's four slotted Health and Stamina with the good IOs and if we had a Firearms/Weapons epic or pool to take from, he'd definitely have a single pistol/automatic rifle attack and a few Stun Grenades.

Also, he's got Jump Kick and is not afraid to spam it:




.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
This is the Tank forum. We feel the need to taunt trolls to keep them here and not bother the other AT forums.
Taunt more. His perpetual whining about tanks bleeds over to way too many of the other forums.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
Taunt more. His perpetual whining about tanks bleeds over to way too many of the other forums.
I didn't take taunt!

...I...I didn't know; how could I have known!

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