The Myth of "Hard" raids.
I decided to run a few Raids as the solo content is not out yet and I wanted to get my 50 Blaster up to tier 4 Alpha.
First of all the raids aren't Hard. They have some gimmicks that if you have run the Apex trial you have seen before. Glowing spots on the ground - check - unresisted damage DoTing you to death - check. The BaF I ran last night and the prisoner escape sequence is flatout silly. I found within 20 seconds they ran a pre-determined path. I stood at the end of the path where they turned - with Chilling Embrace on and using Shiver and Shockwave and not a single prisoner escaped. It wasn't even close. Then the hard part take down 2 AV's at the same time. Well since we herded them together and we were spamming them with AoE's it wasn't until they had 25% health left we even had to worry about it. Then it was figure out which one we were killing easier and kill the other one first. Bingo - done in less than 15 minutes. Then a nice stroll on a Lam - in which the only threat was lag - I died once due to a lag death otherwise we had zero problems - except due to not enough debuffs we had to use a couple grenades. So no badge since we used 3. If you can read - the trials are easy. It says in big letters - this is now happening - then it happens. I was actually interested in seeing what everyone found so hard, I don't see it. They were not even in the same realm as trying to solo a Purple level Proton. He is far harder and requires some planning. Color me not impressed. I would prefer a larger critter with a few effects that make the fight interesting to power spamming. |
Underground and MoM are the real 'hard' trials out there. TPN is mostly tedious, but not difficult once you know what to do.
BAF and Lambda are utterly trivial these days with so many +2 and +3 level shifted.
Now go try TPN Campus and Minds of Mayhem.
Speaking as a veteran wow player, the trials aren't very complex or difficult mechanically, which in my book is very welcome compared to super gimmicky scripted encounters. However if you don't have enough level shifted characters or people aren't paying attention they are definitely possible to fail.
There's also the fact that everyone is buffed to the gills. Capped dam-res, softcapped, huge damage buffs...
The hardest part of any trial is having the patience to sit around doing nothing while waiting for it to start.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I decided to run a few Raids as the solo content is not out yet and I wanted to get my 50 Blaster up to tier 4 Alpha.
First of all the raids aren't Hard. They have some gimmicks that if you have run the Apex trial you have seen before. Glowing spots on the ground - check - unresisted damage DoTing you to death - check. The BaF I ran last night and the prisoner escape sequence is flatout silly. I found within 20 seconds they ran a pre-determined path. I stood at the end of the path where they turned - with Chilling Embrace on and using Shiver and Shockwave and not a single prisoner escaped. It wasn't even close. Then the hard part take down 2 AV's at the same time. Well since we herded them together and we were spamming them with AoE's it wasn't until they had 25% health left we even had to worry about it. Then it was figure out which one we were killing easier and kill the other one first. Bingo - done in less than 15 minutes. Then a nice stroll on a Lam - in which the only threat was lag - I died once due to a lag death otherwise we had zero problems - except due to not enough debuffs we had to use a couple grenades. So no badge since we used 3. If you can read - the trials are easy. It says in big letters - this is now happening - then it happens. I was actually interested in seeing what everyone found so hard, I don't see it. They were not even in the same realm as trying to solo a Purple level Proton. He is far harder and requires some planning. Color me not impressed. I would prefer a larger critter with a few effects that make the fight interesting to power spamming. |
I've posted before about how "hard" in CoH is mostly about not knowing the script, and having to figure it out, with a dash of character attribute comparison to the enemies.
You're coming into these trials long after they have been introduced. Pretty much everyone else knows the "script" by now, and can execute the counter steps by rote. Moreover, lots of players have characters with stats now elevated by previous successes at the trials.
So you have (probably lots of) people on league who are much stronger in the stats contest who mostly know what to do by rote. Of course that's easy. All CoH content is easy in that scenario. Yes, even the MoM trial.
I know TPN was mentioned, but TPN is very much about knowing the script. Once you know its script, TPN isn't hard at all, IMO. Some individuals may get creamed by the AV while moving from building to building, but the league overall rarely suffers much because of that. (That's one reason I find that mechanic annoying - it's no fun for the people getting killed, and it really adds nothing to the league's overall experience of challenge.)
UGT and MoM are "harder" than the others because (a) their stats challenges can be rather severe, and (b) parts of their scripts are harder to learn from replay than most others.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
If you can read - the trials are easy. It says in big letters - this is now happening - then it happens. I was actually interested in seeing what everyone found so hard, I don't see it.
They were not even in the same realm as trying to solo a Purple level Proton. He is far harder and requires some planning. |
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
... I was actually interested in seeing what everyone found so hard, I don't see it. ...
|
QFT
All of the trials are "easy" if the league is prepared for them. That includes TPN, MoM, and Underground. The reason why many players have found them difficult is because they are forming/joining leagues that aren't prepared for the challenges of the trial either through ignorance, lack of leadership and teamwork, hubris, or stupidity. When the league isn't prepared completing the trial will be range anywhere from difficult to impossible.
|
A well organized group of players can do any of the trials without problems. Plus, BAF and Lams are the kindergarten of trials anyway.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Everything was "Hard" when we didn't understand it. I remember when the STF was OMG IMPOSSIBLE!
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Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
This.
A well organized group of players can do any of the trials without problems. Plus, BAF and Lams are the kindergarten of trials anyway. |
edit: blah blah Heather blah blah <smiley>
Yeah OP is a bit late to the party if he thinks the "this is hard" crowd is talking about the first two or three trials. LOL
Those haven't been hard in MONTHS.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Once you learn the patterns, ANY scripted encounter that doesn't have variations to it is going to become "easy" ...
![](http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7840/groove1.gif)
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I decided to run a few Raids as the solo content is not out yet and I wanted to get my 50 Blaster up to tier 4 Alpha.
First of all the raids aren't Hard. They have some gimmicks that if you have run the Apex trial you have seen before. Glowing spots on the ground - check - unresisted damage DoTing you to death - check. The BaF I ran last night and the prisoner escape sequence is flatout silly. I found within 20 seconds they ran a pre-determined path. I stood at the end of the path where they turned - with Chilling Embrace on and using Shiver and Shockwave and not a single prisoner escaped. It wasn't even close. Then the hard part take down 2 AV's at the same time. Well since we herded them together and we were spamming them with AoE's it wasn't until they had 25% health left we even had to worry about it. Then it was figure out which one we were killing easier and kill the other one first. Bingo - done in less than 15 minutes. Then a nice stroll on a Lam - in which the only threat was lag - I died once due to a lag death otherwise we had zero problems - except due to not enough debuffs we had to use a couple grenades. So no badge since we used 3. If you can read - the trials are easy. It says in big letters - this is now happening - then it happens. I was actually interested in seeing what everyone found so hard, I don't see it. They were not even in the same realm as trying to solo a Purple level Proton. He is far harder and requires some planning. Color me not impressed. I would prefer a larger critter with a few effects that make the fight interesting to power spamming. |
Try running the new Death trial the day it comes out.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
All of the trials are "easy" if the league is prepared for them. That includes TPN, MoM, and Underground. The reason why many players have found them difficult is because they are forming/joining leagues that aren't prepared for the challenges of the trial either through ignorance, lack of leadership and teamwork, hubris, or stupidity. When the league isn't prepared completing the trial will be range anywhere from difficult to impossible.
|
On an almost nightly basis the group I run with does Keyes, MoM, TPN and the UG and our success rate is outstanding. We have a core group of players that know what to do, when to do it and have the tools needed to succeed.. in other words most of us have available Clarion, Barrier, Rebirth and Ageless to help us through the tough spots.
As mentioned the TPN is, in my opinion, the BAF of the newer trials. Ignore the telepaths outside and just rush from one building to the next taking down the technicians until you score both of the Public Opinion victories required to let you pound Maelstrom for the third and final time and you are done!
Keyes was harder before they nerfed the constant pulse ray but now every team out there uses the same strategy on the Reactors... get at least one power glowie into 6 terminals before Anti Matter even arrives and then simply ignore him completely until the final battle.
MOM and the UG do require something that the Lambda and BAf showed us is a little hard to find at time .. players that actually PAY ATTENTION to instructions and then do what you tell them instead of what they feel like doing.
The first phase of MOM is just a game of avoid the pink cloud and damage the AVs. Biggest thing is getting players used to the idea that it is NOT okay to take the rez that Dez offers since it cuts the time you have to complete the mission... Making sure you have a few players with Barrier, the one with 1 or 2 rezzes, helps cut down on the need for that along with a player of two that has a power that rezzes as well. Phase two requires you to actually TAUNT the AV to the right place so the voids float by and can be destroyed making her vulnerable. SPECIAL NOTE: this is a LOT easier than trying to taunt the voids themselves. Actually after that its much easier as far as I am concerned. Freeing Aurora is pretty simple and I have even seen teams do it without sending a single person into the portal to protect Aurora. In the final battle(s) the biggest things are.. avoid the pink clouds again and always pull the monsters to Tillman, defeat one and that allows you to hold or immob her while you destroy her. The final fight in Tillman's mind is easy.. hold youe lore pets for that and then just summon everything and unleash it all on her.. In most cases a decent league can defeat her in a minute or less. our personal record is 29 seconds.
Aside for being the longest trial there are only 2 spots where the Underground takes much effort at all aside from "just keep killing till nothing is moving" You NEED to pull the Lichen healed Warworks to a spot where only ONE Lichen can heal it and then .. assign players to quickly destroy that lichen as soonas it appears. EVERYONE else can just pound on the AV. Also be sure your team collects enough of the glowies enroute to that chamber and uses them to debuff the warworks the first time you battle it. After that half the rest is just a race through the spore halls to avoid death by spores (a personal annoyance since there is NO way to prevent this . you cant attack the spores all you can do is RUN fast and use green inspirations). As for the final battle if you did a little survey prior to starting the trial and made sure you had 3-4-or 5 players with Clarion and at least 1 or 2 of those with a T4 you can avoid the Hamidon's confuse and take it down with little difficulty. Oh there is one more thing required for success someone to babysit Dez and keep her alive. This is best done by a player with heals and a certain amount of intelligence ... "If Dez dies before you reach the final chamber the trial fails so if I am leading her around its probably best for me not to be the first person jumping into a mob of Devouring Erath elite bosses" DUH
There is not a single trial out there I won't run with people I know and trust. Now there are several I won't even consider with a group of strangers.. MOM, UG and even the TPN can be iffy .. get a group that can't understand "dont attack civilains" and/or "Pull the mobs away from the terminals before attacking and dont use holds or immobs on them while they are there" and it can be a disaster.
See it isn't the trials that are all that hard its finding players that don't think they can just run in and start smashing and win that makes them seem that way.
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So basically for the people that it is supposed to be challenging for it isn't but yet it is still considered "challenging" such that DA has to get clobbered because it isn't "challenging" even though solo you won't have rolling judgements and destinies.
edit: blah blah Heather blah blah <smiley> |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
So basically for the people that it is supposed to be challenging for it isn't but yet it is still considered "challenging" such that DA has to get clobbered because it isn't "challenging" even though solo you won't have rolling judgements and destinies.
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Even if the devs removed the minimum team size from the iTrials, you cannot solo them. Even the base level easiest trials contain mechanics and content harder than solo content. As easy as the trials can be...you do NOTHING solo like iTrial content.
You will not solo a 54 AV that will hit you with a unresistable hold every 30 seconds just for having her aggro.
You will not solo the prisoner phase.
You will not solo a second 54 AV with the same hold with respawning groups of 54 boss class mobs that if left alone will punch through capped defense and resistance.
You will not solo both of them with the same boss mobs and defeat them within 10 seconds of each other.
And even if it were possible, you wont do it within the time limit.
The BAF is easy because the league MAKES it easy. When solo content reaches those levels of difficulty, then you can get the rewards you deserve.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Dear OP, I'm guessing that you're coming from WoW so I'll put this in terms you'll understand. You were running Molten Core and most of your team was probably in Blackwing Lair gear. Of course it was easy.
_________
@Inquisitor
The harder Trials DO give better rewards. Keyes and TPN have a higher chance of a rare or very rare as a reward, Underground and I believe the Mother Mayhem trial awards one rare or very rare upon completion and the Underground gives a substantial amount of threads.
These aren't WoW raids, WoW raids, even if the content is on farm can still take 2 hours+, the raids we have, I think the longest is Underground which takes about an hour, hour an a half max (hence the higher reward).
If you want a proper gear treadmill, which is what you seem to be suggeting, head back on over to WoW or any number of its clones, CoH, althought it has 'raids' is a slightly different sort of endgame.
Also you'll notice that most iTrials are not formed of dedicated supergroups like you do in WoW, there are no 'progression supergroups' or even 'raid supergroups'. CoH has a far more casual PuG based audience (and has since the start) than those and it pays the devs to play to their audience.
Most iTrialers will do several trials in succession, yesterday I did Keyes, MoM, Lambda than just one and then log off.
To use the WoW analogy BAF and Lambda are the equivilent of WoW raids on 'farm' status, almost everyone on the server knows how they work.
Trust me, when they first came out, failures on the BAF and Lambda were quite high, heck Union was probably the first server to get people the Master of BAF badges regularly because due to a smaller population who were doing them several times a day the strategy was nailed down fairly sharpish.
Infact the strange difference between Union and the other servers is that a Master run is considered a 'normal run' while the 'pull AVs to the tennis courts' is considered a 'easy run'.
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A real showstopper!
Of course the OP would be best suited to respond to this, I can only offer my interpretation.
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
I decided to run a few Raids as the solo content is not out yet and I wanted to get my 50 Blaster up to tier 4 Alpha.
First of all the raids aren't Hard. They have some gimmicks that if you have run the Apex trial you have seen before. Glowing spots on the ground - check - unresisted damage DoTing you to death - check.
The BaF I ran last night and the prisoner escape sequence is flatout silly. I found within 20 seconds they ran a pre-determined path. I stood at the end of the path where they turned - with Chilling Embrace on and using Shiver and Shockwave and not a single prisoner escaped.
It wasn't even close. Then the hard part take down 2 AV's at the same time. Well since we herded them together and we were spamming them with AoE's it wasn't until they had 25% health left we even had to worry about it. Then it was figure out which one we were killing easier and kill the other one first.
Bingo - done in less than 15 minutes.
Then a nice stroll on a Lam - in which the only threat was lag - I died once due to a lag death otherwise we had zero problems - except due to not enough debuffs we had to use a couple grenades. So no badge since we used 3.
If you can read - the trials are easy. It says in big letters - this is now happening - then it happens. I was actually interested in seeing what everyone found so hard, I don't see it. They were not even in the same realm as trying to solo a Purple level Proton. He is far harder and requires some planning.
Color me not impressed. I would prefer a larger critter with a few effects that make the fight interesting to power spamming.