23 Years old and 'Totally a trained Superhero' (minor spoilers)
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-02-21 21:22 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Speaking of which, Jim Temblor calls Penny a "kid" and I think more than once. How old is HE? Because in Faultline, he looks like he's 19 or 20 himself.
|
Originally Posted by Chyll
She hung out with Fusionette............. 'nuff said.......
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
This is precisely why I've never gotten too "involved" with the canon of this game. It's always been easier to focus on my own characters and let the rest of the game world shuffle itself out regardless of whether it makes 100% total sense or not. |
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
It's so much of a stretch that it yanked me out of my willing suspension of disbelief.
|
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
I gather you do not have any 17 to 19 year old kids, specifically a daughter. It is a known parental fact that most, not all, but most teenagers lose their minds after turning 13 and do not regain their faculties until on or after their 21st birthday. While that is a joke, it does hold a certain amount of serious to it. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What this is about is a question of Penny's mannerisms, attitude and behaviour. She sounds and acts like a kid.
|
I have three girls. Two of them are 20 and older. Both and I mean both at 17 - 19 acted like 14 year olds in mannerism, attitude, and behavior. That is common. Boys, OMG, are worse. Girls mature quicker than boys do; however, raising a male child is easier than raising a female.
Therefore, based on my experience as a dad, and those experiences from many friends who are parents, Penelope's actions in Faultline reflect the actions of a young girl the age of 18 or so. You and the others may not be able to see or accept this. That is natural. I could not have accepted it myself when I did not have children of that age either. Nevertheless, facts are facts, and clearly, Penelope actions reflect these facts.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Quote:
I teach several courses at the university here, and most of my students are 18 and 19 years old. While I don't exactly count them as adults on account of their being ridiculously irresponsible about their future and still being supported by their parents, very few of them act like children, and the ones that do act like that to impress their class-mates. And then fail their tests because they spent most of their time monkeying around instead of listening to what I'm saying.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
I gather you do not have any 17 to 19 year old kids, specifically a daughter. It is a known parental fact that most, not all, but most teenagers lose their minds after turning 13 and do not regain their faculties until on or after their 21st birthday. While that is a joke, it does hold a certain amount of serious to it.
|
No, I don't have kids, you're right about that, but I deal with young men and women on a daily basis. I've never seen one that acted like Penny. Yes, some are bubbly and fool around and such, but none of them share those same mannerisms.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I'm beginning to see this as less of a "writing issue" and as yet more proof that my once-in-jest theory may in fact be true.
We have Dark Astoria's fall identified as occurring in different eras, characters of shifting ages in different eras, numerous plaques that seem to contradict one another, and continuities that... well... aren't. We even have hints of dimensional barriers weakening and "versions" of our selves from other worlds appearing in our own.
It really IS as if the developers decided to take all the continuity, retcon, and "retelling" elements of comic books and built a world that intentionally incorporated all of it in its very fabric: universes in constant collision; time travel paradoxes knotting up the timeline; and reality-shifting devices that have rewritten parts of the world more than once. Maybe the CoH "world" our characters call home is more like the fragmented convergence of many worlds and reflects not just an amalgamation of past dimensional reality-shifts, but of ones ongoing at this very moment.
Of course, there's a simpler explanation:
As a participant in "A Faultline in the Sands of Time," the 12-year-old was "entrusted with the secret" of Ouroboros.
Big.
Mistake.
There are conflicting reports on whether she spent the next decade of her life traveling through time honing her skills as a heroine or whether she spent it attending her favorite boy-band's concerts over and over and over (and over and over), but at least one Justin Beiber concert video shows at least seven Penny Yin lookalikes in the front row.
Quote:
I applaud your ability to teach and the patience required to do so. Teaching at any level is taxing.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I teach several courses at the university here, and most of my students are 18 and 19 years old.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No, I don't have kids, you're right about that, but I deal with young men and women on a daily basis. I've never seen one that acted like Penny. Yes, some are bubbly and fool around and such, but none of them share those same mannerisms.
|
Is all this way? No, like I mentioned early, most do. My experiences with my own children and others had me shaking my head saying, "Damn, my dad was right. I should've listened to him and his wisdom."
Penelope is your classic cheerful bubbly young woman whose positive outlook on life drives her. My youngest is like this, except she is far more mature at 15 than her sisters were at 19. On top of that, she is a genius. Put all of that together and I am more worried about her than I was the other too. She will know how to get away with things. That is scary! lol
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Quote:
Buwahahahahahaha! This, this I can believe! lol
|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
There are conflicting reports on whether she spent the next decade of her life traveling through time honing her skills as a heroine or whether she spent it attending her favorite boy-band's concerts over and over and over (and over and over), but at least one Justin Beiber concert video shows at least seven Penny Yin lookalikes in the front row.
|
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Quote:
Generalizations are generaltions, but I have a teenage daughter. I'm not gonna challenge KofK's point...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I teach several courses at the university here, and most of my students are 18 and 19 years old. While I don't exactly count them as adults on account of their being ridiculously irresponsible about their future and still being supported by their parents, very few of them act like children, and the ones that do act like that to impress their class-mates. And then fail their tests because they spent most of their time monkeying around instead of listening to what I'm saying.
No, I don't have kids, you're right about that, but I deal with young men and women on a daily basis. I've never seen one that acted like Penny. Yes, some are bubbly and fool around and such, but none of them share those same mannerisms. |
And comparing class room behavior at an institution of higher education and the way and living their lives outside that classroom... not nearly situations that I would use to draw meaningful conclusions.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
I don't care what it says in the "story bible". "Perilous Penelope" is not depicted in a manner consistent with an 18-year-old college freshman.
I also have two kids, one being a daughter who just turned 21. There's a big difference between "bubbly" and childish.
It certainly doesn't help matter that Jim Temblor also refers to her as if she's a child, as has been pointed out elsewhere. Nor does it help that the writers tap into childish stereotypes like "Golly-gee can I be your sidekick?" and references to specifically "atmospheric" activities like riding around on her bike making deliveries and ringing her bike bell. That's 10-year-old stuff, not fifteen-year-old stuff. It's not that it's impossible for Penny to have been 14-15 when she was making those deliveries. It's that the image taps into a cultural stereotype that is much younger than that, and with no further information to go on, that's what the brain uses to assign her a general age.
Whatever. At this point it's ingrained into my head that she's 14 in Faultline and I'm going to treat the new information as a retcon, even if it's technically not a retcon from the dev's point of view. If the writers weren't so stingy with even the least significant bits of backstory on the characters in the game, then this sort of problem wouldn't occur.
Quote:
Yes, you are confused. I currently work w/ a couple 18 year olds that are considerably short for their age. So to me, for the past 10 or so years...this isn't anything out of the ordinary.|
Originally Posted by Lye
Penny's too short for an eighteen-year-old, even by the standards of exaggerated height set by most NPCs in the game. I am confused, and shall be in my corner.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Speaking of which, Jim Temblor calls Penny a "kid" and I think more than once. How old is HE? Because in Faultline, he looks like he's 19 or 20 himself.
|
Compared to your average 23 years old on the Internet, she sounds like an adult.
Quote:
And it works the other way, too; my father was 6'4" tall since he was 12, and I hit 6'5" at 15 and stopped there.
|
Originally Posted by MisterMagpie
My problem is apparently she's had quite the growth spurt since age 18.
I could have used that, I've been the same damn height since I was 13. |
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Story Bible or not, Penny never even remotely "felt" 18 in Faultline. If she was meant to be, then that's just one more example of the writer failing to convey what they had intended.
I could accept her maybe being as old as 15/20, but there's no way I can wrap my brain around her as 18/23.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Quote:
I think your all forgetting a few things.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's not a question of her physical appearance. No, she doesn't look that young. No-one in this game looks particularly young, because our costume editor, for all its strengths, is incredibly abstract when it comes to the finer points of a person's physique.
What this is about is a question of Penny's mannerisms, attitude and behaviour. She sounds and acts like a kid. If the Penelope Yin of Faultline is supposed to be an 18-year-old woman, then she's an incredibly juvenilie one. I get that she's acting cute and friendly and all that, but there are certain mannerisms inherent to children that even young adults don't often keep. The real tragedy here is that Penny's 14-year-old kid writing is some of the best in the game from a technical standpoint. She sounds spot on as a little kid, and she's probably the only character in the game who manages to act youthful without acting like an idiot. |
1) People's personalities vary as it is.
2) Ficitional universe. So even if people didn't act like Penny at that age (but that's already false), people in such universes tend to have personalities people usually wouldn't.
Hell look at Superman and people complaining about his personality.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Reversal: Comparing some younger people on the internet, they sound more adult than a lot of the so called 'grown ups' in 'real life'.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Compared to your average 23 years old on the Internet, she sounds like an adult.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
I would really love to see some story-Dev responses to both this thread and the SSA#6 thread.
I will disagree with Sam in his 'all writing has been bad since GR' comment; GR had, in my opinion, some of the best writing in CoH so far. It had character, CONTACTS with character which was pretty much unheard of before (imo) and far smoother plots than ever before. It just got hamstrung by stupid mechanics (ambushes...) and cheaty NPC mobs.
We then got stuff like Leonard and D-Mac. Ahh, the Mac-ster. Never before (and not much since 
) have we actually had a contact that suits more powerful villains so well. Our little, cheery, helpful minion. No, D, I will not high five you. Get on with your job. He was great.
And then along comes the SSA. It started out ok, I thought. 1-3 certainly weren't bad. But then someone deployed the idiot ball....and all hope was lost.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Those contacts are some of the only reasons im always tempted to go villainside as they are clearly some of the most fun ingame! |
We then got stuff like Leonard and D-Mac. Ahh, the Mac-ster. Never before (and not much since ) have we actually had a contact that suits more powerful villains so well. Our little, cheery, helpful minion. No, D, I will not high five you. Get on with your job. He was great.
|
That being said, im 25 years old and she sounds more mature than me
Age is but a number and we do find out in SSA2 how she was able to train herself up to become so powerfull.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
Quote:
This right here like x10|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I always assumed Penelope was 17-19 in faultline. She talked and acted a lot like my 19 year old ballroom dance partner does now, and my dance partner is 19, almost 20.
So ... *shrug* Lewis |
I don't get where people are getting this little kid thing from. She almost tells you right off the bad that it's her friends that treat her like a kid and that she is not a kid. Yeah she is short, and yeah you can almost feel the whole little kid thing when she isn't really doing much of anything (not using power and stuff) and has clockwork protecting her. She really doesn't starting using her powers or starts getting training for them till the end of the arc.
I mean how is any of this hard to get? Lets see starting getting training after the Faultline Arc, we see her again much much later around the Vanguard stuff, jump some more years to now, is it really that hard to believe in all this time she is not only older but trained too? I wouldn't call spending time with Vanguard and fighting Rikkti (sp?) no type of training what so ever.
Quote:
Well, judging by the responses to this thread and others, I would say impossibly hard. Most are dead set on the perception Penelope Yin was some 14 to 15 year old or younger and it is nigh impossible for her to be "23." I call that the 'Horse Blinder Affect."
|
Originally Posted by Demonic_Spark
I mean how is any of this hard to get?
|
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Quote:
Except, while Faultline and Fusionette changed, Penny in the RWZ *didn't*. She was the same girl, same sort of character, same look.|
Originally Posted by Demonic_Spark
I mean how is any of this hard to get? Lets see starting getting training after the Faultline Arc, we see her again much much later around the Vanguard stuff, jump some more years to now, is it really that hard to believe in all this time she is not only older but trained too? I wouldn't call spending time with Vanguard and fighting Rikkti (sp?) no type of training what so ever. |
And, no, she wasn't IN the Vanguard, she was kidnapped for all of one mission, to be used as a psychic catalyst for the Rikti portals.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Try 'inconsistant writing and lore' and you'd be much closer.
|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Well, judging by the responses to this thread and others, I would say impossibly hard. Most are dead set on the perception Penelope Yin was some 14 to 15 year old or younger and it is nigh impossible for her to be "23." I call that the 'Horse Blinder Affect."
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I challenged you earlier to apply for a position as one of their freelance writers. If you believe you can do better, submit any or all of your published writing as part of your résumé. If they think they can use you, you have your foot in the door and can now put your writing where your mouth is. As I said before, "It is easier to stand by and criticize than it is to actively participate and do something about it." Otherwise, you will sound like a useless broken record.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Try 'inconsistant writing and lore' and you'd be much closer.
|
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Quote:
I think some of the best storytelling has come out since I19. I understand your point, and agree that continuity is extremely important. I also agree about the darker, edgier stuff (In Praetoria I didn't like "choose which one of us to murder," for example, to say nothing of "let's lure these nice people down here so we can feed them to the ghouls"). But the contacts in Praetoria were memorable. They actually seemed like my characters' friends. They were not just random, generic contacts. I cared about these guys. I cared what happened to them. And when my resistance character did the final mission and moved to Primal Earth, it was a genuinely emotional experience. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Going Rogue itself wasn't a bad idea, or even badly executed. I wasn't a fan of the darker and edgier storytelling and named characters constantly dying to feed some writer's bloodlust, but it fit the thematic of the place. Variety is always good, and I guess we could have used a crapsack world. But then that writing spread like a disease, and where in Praetoria there was no real canon to speak of which could be defiled, when Paragon City and the Rogue Isles contracted this disease, it was terrible. It has been killing my interest in the game's story pretty much since I19, and it just keeps getting worse.
|
An emotional experience! In CoH! This was an element I'd never come close to experiencing in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I love CoH! But I'd never felt emotionally connected to any of the stories before. First Ward had the same effect, and added another element: actual laugh-out-loud moments. Previously, I'd never experienced more than a rare grin ("Recover the Plot Device" still makes me smile). The the Mortimer Kai SF was so chocked full of throwaway funny lines that after I first ran it, I scrolled back to read all the dialogue just to find any stuff I'd missed.
Myself, I've never bothered with game lore I see people in the forums who know everything about cannon and am baffled. I don't understand this. I mean this NOT a criticism at all, mind you! I mean that I don't understand why anyone finds it terribly interesting. I think I read something once in the official site somewhere that explained the backround of the major characters. I forgot most of it almost immediately. Why? Because after all the years I've been playing, I'd never gotten to know most of those people. I've never cared about them. Only a few of the pre-I18 contacts heroside seem memorable, with distinct personalities and stories I cared about. Several of these are found in Faultline.
I'm delighted to see that they're being give "new life." I'm happy to see their characters grow up, and find a place among the Big Heroes. THEM I'd go research and learn more about.
Oh, wait. I don't need to. I remember their stories. Why? Because they mattered to me.
I have been recently been wondering about the criticisms of the new story content, specifically the SSA's, and the thought occurred to me that maybe I am getting a bit spoiled? Maybe I'm getting used to getting involved in the storyline, and caring about the characters? Maybe when I run things that don't have the same depth, I am too critical? If so, this is rather unfair of me, isn't it?
As for Penny specifically, I find her new look to be perfectly in keeping with actresses or pop stars who gain fame as teenagers, but as young adults are determined to show the world that they're not kids any more. And then act rather immature.
As the younger Yin, she's a likable and memorable character. I expected her to develop as a hero, but to toss a sudden extreme change to her like this...I don't know, it doesn't seem right.
City of Heroes appears to be under the relentless assault by a person or a group of people who want it to be something completely different entirely, and I honestly don't see a good enough justification for it. There was nothing wrong with Rick Dakan's old storyline design. The man might have been garbage as a lead developer, but at least he was damn good as a writer. He had an almost tolkenian sense of the "broader world" of his fictional universe, instead of relying on shocking plot twists and unexpected developments.
Going Rogue itself wasn't a bad idea, or even badly executed. I wasn't a fan of the darker and edgier storytelling and named characters constantly dying to feed some writer's bloodlust, but it fit the thematic of the place. Variety is always good, and I guess we could have used a crapsack world. But then that writing spread like a disease, and where in Praetoria there was no real canon to speak of which could be defiled, when Paragon City and the Rogue Isles contracted this disease, it was terrible. It has been killing my interest in the game's story pretty much since I19, and it just keeps getting worse.