So basically what this guy said?
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
3. Make photon seekers more useful. Give them the Carrion creeper effect. When they expire, they summon a pseudopet. Any enemies that die in the Pseudopet causes another Photon Seeker to be summoned. Each one would create the Pseudopet, and each pet would summon for a death in range.
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While certainly what inspired me, no, there's a big difference in that this idea does not make the seekers infinitely recursive.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
So basically what this guy said?
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What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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Also, your idea is frontloaded. Ex: If there are 8 enemies, you get 8 seekers. |
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
While certainly what inspired me, no, there's a big difference in that this idea does not make the seekers infinitely recursive.
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Mine isn't. You get your initial seeker(s), which would grow in number as you kill stuff.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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And that's exactly my idea. Stop pretending Seekers are a pet power and make it an area attack that scales upwards with number of targets.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Also, your idea is frontloaded. Ex: If there are 8 enemies, you get 8 seekers.
Mine isn't. You get your initial seeker(s), which would grow in number as you kill stuff. |
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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I like this idea, but some people would definitely cry foul due to seeker's knockback secondary affect. |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Also, your idea is frontloaded. Ex: If there are 8 enemies, you get 8 seekers.
Mine isn't. You get your initial seeker(s), which would grow in number as you kill stuff. |
I'd suggest making it a "minefield" patch power, It would work just as you suggested. Since PB's are known for their knockback it would help in planning, sort of like how a /devices blaster might KB a group of enemies into a trip mine, or a /fire mastery would with bonfire.
I would like photon seekers to have a stun secondary effect rather than knockback.
PBs have enough powers to knock stuff into another area code already.
Adding a to-hit debuff would be nice too but probably asking too much :P
Photon Seekers need some help. Here is what I have problem with:
1. You cast it before the fight and you run in and the seekers only hit the few mobs that stand close to you. Damage potential not great.
2. You run into the mob and cast it, boom, the mobs are all scattered away from you due to the knock back.
Either way, the damage potential is always less unless it's only one target left and all 3 seekers hit the same target.
I really don't like the knock back in seekers. It's annoying. PB has more than enough knock backs.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I would like photon seekers to have a stun secondary effect rather than knockback.
PBs have enough powers to knock stuff into another area code already. Adding a to-hit debuff would be nice too but probably asking too much :P |
Actually, adding a stun secondary instead of KB would be awesome for Photon Seekers, but I'm not sure it's the right direction to go in.. Warshades would still be better at controlling mobs. I personally would rather see PB's given a "jack of all, master of none" emphasis placed on healing- Making the self heal a PBAOE would be a huge step in the right direction imo. If an emphasis is placed on stuns for PB fixes and ideas like this are implemented, it just means that PB's will continue their current function which is being not quite as good as Warshades at anything they do.
For Photon Seekers, I like the idea that's already been widely agreed upon (I forget who presented it originally, probably Microcosm) that the Seekers should summon something comparable to Polar Lights lore pets after every cast after the initial explosion. Even if this happened though, the KB from the initial BOOM would still be enough for me to hate the power, so that brings us back to the ultimate suggestion in that all PB's KB should be changed to KD.
I happen to like the new photon seekers since they are up every mob with the right amount of recharge. Then again I liked the old Photon seekers circa I9 version so any more improvement is welcomed. 
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I'm not to sure about the whole "Make glowing touch a PBAoE Heal" standpoint. The other day on our Kheldian Fridays: STF I was using glowing touch to save anyone nearly two shotted by LR. Although a PBAoE Heal would work for this too...I was able to do this very quickly, because of the range of Glowing touch. I didn't have to fly over and hug stone when he was nearly dead, or anyone else for that matter |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Actually, adding a stun secondary instead of KB would be awesome for Photon Seekers, but I'm not sure it's the right direction to go in.. Warshades would still be better at controlling mobs. I personally would rather see PB's given a "jack of all, master of none" emphasis placed on healing- Making the self heal a PBAOE would be a huge step in the right direction imo. If an emphasis is placed on stuns for PB fixes and ideas like this are implemented, it just means that PB's will continue their current function which is being not quite as good as Warshades at anything they do.
For Photon Seekers, I like the idea that's already been widely agreed upon (I forget who presented it originally, probably Microcosm) that the Seekers should summon something comparable to Polar Lights lore pets after every cast after the initial explosion. Even if this happened though, the KB from the initial BOOM would still be enough for me to hate the power, so that brings us back to the ultimate suggestion in that all PB's KB should be changed to KD. |
Instead I just click, heal, and keep blasting without having to distract myself from killing the Pillars by having to hug anyone nearly dead. To change the subject: if seekers summoned a Polar light upon death, wouldn't strong knockback be better? Those polar lights have bright nova AoEs and the KB would push the mobs radially away from the polar light, allowing for more AoE potential with Scatter.
Either way I would love the polar Lights pet though :3 Considering I already have them for my Lore!
Four white fluffballs of luminous doom, Where do i sign up?
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I said the self heal, not glowing touch.|
Originally Posted by Bionut911
I'm not to sure about the whole "Make glowing touch a PBAoE Heal" standpoint. The other day on our Kheldian Fridays: STF I was using glowing touch to save anyone nearly two shotted by LR. Although a PBAoE Heal would work for this too...I was able to do this very quickly, because of the range of Glowing touch.
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I didn't have to fly over and hug stone when he was nearly dead, or anyone else for that matter Instead I just click, heal, and keep blasting without having to distract myself from killing the Pillars by having to hug anyone nearly dead.
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| To change the subject: if seekers summoned a Polar light upon death, wouldn't strong knockback be better? Those polar lights have bright nova AoEs and the KB would push the mobs radially away from the polar light, allowing for more AoE potential with Scatter. |
I don't like the idea of being turned into some kind of 'healer'.
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Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I don't like the idea of being turned into some kind of 'healer'.
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The point is that Peacebringers have no useful team function- Kheldians are meant to be 'jack of all trades' characters, and Warshades live up to this standard by providing AOE damage, ST damage, tanking, and support- The support for Warshades being their control. I'm not suggesting that Peacebringers have their AOE, ST, or tanking taken away from them- They just aren't good enough at any type of support. The healing precedent is set with Glowing Touch, and making the self heal an AOE heal would bring more value to the AT in team situations. The tanking that Kheldians are capable of is really a moot point since Scrappers, Stalkers, or Blasters with provoke can essentially fill the same role to a big enough extent that the services of a Kheldian are not required, wanted or even appreciated in most situations.
would definitely be interesting
if it is intended to be a pet this wouldnt fit though, however instead of summoning photon seekers, if the power is intended to summon a pet, then it should instead summon "northern lights" pets instead of photon seekers, the northern lights are kheld themed already even using PB attacks, they would only be the minion versions that accompany lord of winter in the lord of winter holiday trial, not the boss/LT versions that are currently lore pets
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Whoa hold on their champ. No useful team function is totally wrong mate for so many reasons. I think what you meant based the last sentence was no useful team "support" function and that we can certainly agreed on aside from the -defense in each attack.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The point is that Peacebringers have no useful team function- Kheldians are meant to be 'jack of all trades' characters, and Warshades live up to this standard by providing AOE damage, ST damage, tanking, and support- The support for Warshades being their control. I'm not suggesting that Peacebringers have their AOE, ST, or tanking taken away from them- They just aren't good enough at any type of support.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Agreed. The PB's excellent personal healing mitigation is the cornerstone of how it rolls. I don't like any kind of aoe heal replacement for something that is set up to be much like scrappers sets with similar powers, it makes no sense. It works just fine and these new aoe heal ideas just don't fit with what is already WAI and quite well since the recent changes. |
Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I don't like the idea of being turned into some kind of 'healer'.
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I think the forum is suffering from being given an inch in terms of powerset changes and are now well past the mile mark in change requests.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Oops |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I said the self heal, not glowing touch.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Right, but that alone is so clicky and targety and is in and of itself not a substitute for the overall lack of team usefulness a PB can provide. If you're tabbing through your team to deliver futile ST heals throughout the duration of an AV fight, you're not able to do much of anything else, at least satisfactorily.
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Futile? lol It did keep people alive, and aren't you the one who is always telling me to heal your fluffies
If my 'Shade team mates are being kept alive and not worrying about needing HP with a lack of bodies, they're pumping out dmg rather than scurrying off for more HP food Either way, DPS trade of is the way I see it. What I don't do, they do in return rather than dying. (plus, I suck at ST attack chains >.> Idk how to figure em' out, so i try to be as helpful as possible...click & go baby!)
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Making the self heal a PBAOE would make PB's as useful to teams as Warshades are when they permanently stun entire groups. Being able to heal all your allies and have a targeted ST heal you can serve a valid support purpose without treading on the toes of traditional support AT's due to a lack of buffs and debuffs.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
KB is never good for end game purposes which is the ultimate goal of all characters, and what does death have to do with anything? Having a death requirement for PB powers (not even sure what you're talking about with this, so I'm making an educated guess) would be bad for the AT- It would be yet another example of PB's being watered down and sub-par Warshades. PB's are self contained and should stay that way.
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KB is just as useful as your stuns, slows, or holds, it just isn't well suited for a min/max, herd em' up style of gameplay...to say it's "never good" is unrealistic. On a Baf knockback can easily stall out a large group of escaping prisoners, giving ST players time to kill those LTS while the minions are on their rears. Meanwhile I'm KBing them further and further back while killing them, keeping them from their destination.
By "death" I meant the detonation/death of the original photon seekers, not the caster; cause ya' know...they essentially bright fluffy suicide bombers.
Requiring the caster to die would be just dumb. lmao
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The point is that Peacebringers have no useful team function- Kheldians are meant to be 'jack of all trades' characters, and Warshades live up to this standard by providing AOE damage, ST damage, tanking, and support- The support for Warshades being their control. I'm not suggesting that Peacebringers have their AOE, ST, or tanking taken away from them- They just aren't good enough at any type of support.
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'Shades don't fall into this category at all, Mez isn't support it is crowd control. THe stun in no way directly buffs your team mates, nor do they require an ally to be targeted. Solo, stunning enemies is crowd control, on teams, it's still crowd control. Just because enemies can't attack your team mates doesn't mean it's "support."
Yes I can agree that it is helpful to team mates, but it doesn't fall under the game's definition of support abilities.
If you're going to say that "support" is stunning enemies, then so is knockback.
If an enemy is stunned, they momentarily can't attack. If an enemy is hit with a high mag knockback, they fall on their butt and momentarily can't attack. From your logic, both are forms of "support." Therefore, your argument that PBs provide no "support" (by your definition) to a team is invalid.
EDIT: I realized that this reply might be taken harshly, and In no way is this directed at THB personally. I'm just debating my viewpoint in the argument.
A bit off the original topic but I don't think changing the self heal into an AoE heal is a good idea. It would be bound to get reduced in some way as a self heal.
I not even sure it would be that good on an all Kheld team (khelds have plenty of ways to stay alive). On any other team there is bound to be some team mates providing support. If for some reason you happen to find yourself on a team with 7 blasters you are better off tanking for them in dwarf imo. With dual builds available there is no reason not to have a second build that focuses on dwarf.
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Using Glowing Touch over and over, tabbing through your teammates, is not efficient at all. All the time you spend healing individual people could be circumvented by hitting an AOE heal every so often. Targeted heals are for extreme cases like when someone gets nearly-dropped on an alpha strike or pulling a mob/AV. |
Originally Posted by Bionut911
Oops
Futile? lol It did keep people alive, and aren't you the one who is always telling me to heal your fluffies If my 'Shade team mates are being kept alive and not worrying about needing HP with a lack of bodies, they're pumping out dmg rather than scurrying off for more HP food |
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| Either way, DPS trade of is the way I see it. What I don't do, they do in return rather than dying. (plus, I suck at ST attack chains >.> Idk how to figure em' out, so i try to be as helpful as possible...click & go baby!) |
The bottom line is that damage should never have to be outright sacrificed, especially on a Hybrid AT like a Peacebringer. Your first obligation is damage output, and as I've pointed out it's not practical to focus on both healing and DPS in many situations- An AOE heal would go a long way to help those two things coexist.
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I totally agree that a heal would provide more team support alongside Glowing touch, but i think it's reaching a bit far. And no debuffs? D: Peacebringers do have debuffs, their attacks provide a defense debuff. Which is useful.
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| I understand your viewpoint but i wholeheartedly disagree that knockback is never good for end-game purposes. That "ultimate goal of all characters" that you mentioned is biased towards the min/max gameplay style. Tactically it is VERY useful. Otherwise, level 50 energy/energy blasters (like mine) or a /Storm character wouldn't be played in the "end game." There would be no reason to put bonfire into the fire blaster epic pool, because epic pool is "endgame material" |
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| KB is just as useful as your stuns, slows, or holds, |
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| it just isn't well suited for a min/max, herd em' up style of gameplay...to say it's "never good" is unrealistic. On a Baf knockback can easily stall out a large group of escaping prisoners, giving ST players time to kill those LTS while the minions are on their rears. Meanwhile I'm KBing them further and further back while killing them, keeping them from their destination. |
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| Support class ATs in CoX are defined as "a great buffing potential for teammates, works well in teams, and with many power sets having healing capabilities." Paragon Wiki. |
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'Shades don't fall into this category at all, Mez isn't support it is crowd control. THe stun in no way directly buffs your team mates, nor do they require an ally to be targeted. Solo, stunning enemies is crowd control, on teams, it's still crowd control. Just because enemies can't attack your team mates doesn't mean it's "support." Yes I can agree that it is helpful to team mates, but it doesn't fall under the game's definition of support abilities. |
So to summarize, you're grasping at straws because even though you 100% agree with the overall point of what I'm saying, you don't think the wording I chose 100% fits the exact textbook definition of an unofficial wiki page.
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If you're going to say that "support" is stunning enemies, then so is knockback. If an enemy is stunned, they momentarily can't attack. If an enemy is hit with a high mag knockback, they fall on their butt and momentarily can't attack. From your logic, both are forms of "support." Therefore, your argument that PBs provide no "support" (by your definition) to a team is invalid. |
The two times it saves some poor player are nothing compared to the 50 times it pisses off competent players. Stuns pose no risk whatsoever to teammates and are a much more useful tool.
Sorry once again people's personal hate or bad experience is tainting a discussion to the point of misinformation.
I would be the first to state that improper use of any powers in the game can be annoying in a team setting. There are powersets that are MUCH easier to mess things up with no doubt. However, the discussion about the KB deal is getting out of whack.
A person that knows how/when to use KB powers is just as effective as anyone else. I for one have not seen anyone reference the proper use of hover blasting to knockdown then using knockback as you kill the enemy that is already down to a sliver. Or how the use of a knockback power that stuns can be an effective opener etc......
Knockback is very useful if used correctly just like any other power. YMMV on how well it's done or the personal preference of its use, but its effectiveness in the right hands remains the same.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Sorry once again people's personal hate or bad experience is tainting a discussion to the point of misinformation.
I would be the first to state that improper use of any powers in the game can be annoying in a team setting. There are powersets that are MUCH easier to mess things up with no doubt. However, the discussion about the KB deal is getting out of whack. A person that knows how/when to use KB powers is just as effective as anyone else. I for one have not seen anyone reference the proper use of hover blasting to knockdown then using knockback as you kill the enemy that is already down to a sliver. Or how the use of a knockback power that stuns can be an effective opener etc...... Knockback is very useful if used correctly just like any other power. YMMV on how well it's done or the personal preference of its use, but its effectiveness in the right hands remains the same. |
Right, but Photon Seekers KB is not useful. The damage vs. Scatter is not worth the tradeoff. I use Gravitic Emanation all the time on my Warshade, and I've already noted the usefulness of KB on a circumstantial basis, but to have it baked into every power is a recipe for disaster. Granted the worst offender is Solar Flare since it's PBAOE KB and there is no way to use it as a positioning tool- There's no way to use Seekers as a positioning tool either. ST KB isn't as bad since the originator of the KB can finish off its own targets, but that doesn't make it ideal. I ran a very expensive human PB for a while and I just hated it. It killed slowly because it kept scattering things out of its own AOE radius, essentially guaranteeing that it would not hit its target cap after the alpha strike. It's just counter-intuitive. As for ST's, the bread and butter of his attack chain was R Strike. Even finishing up bosses, it would require constant repositioning of self running Strike>Bolt>Blast because the target would be continually knocked out of melee and I'd have to chase it down, making it take longer. Sure my Warshade runs Shadow Blast in his ST chain and that has a chance to KB, but it's rarely an issue compared to PB's.
Edit: I hovered my PB for the reason you mention, but it does nothing to alleviate the Scatter from Seekers or Solar Flare.
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To you.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Right, but Photon Seekers KB is not useful. The damage vs. Scatter is not worth the tradeoff.
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The statement beyond that falls flat on its face in the sense that you cannot account for how other people have it slotted, use it, nor its relative effectiveness TO THEM when they use it.
That is nothing more than a personal preference mate.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I use Gravitic Emanation all the time on my Warshade, and I've already noted the usefulness of KB on a circumstantial basis, but to have it baked into every power is a recipe for disaster.
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It also depends on how KB is deployed. There needs to be some acknowledgement on your part that KB can be deployed in more than the singular negative way you are describing it or it is nothing more than misinformation tainted strongly by your personal preference.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Granted the worst offender is Solar Flare since it's PBAOE KB and there is no way to use it as a positioning tool- There's no way to use Seekers as a positioning tool either.
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I don't use nor have I ever heard of anyone using Photon Seekers to position anything, I use them to blow stuff up ranged mini nuke style or point blank depending on the situation.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
ST KB isn't as bad since the originator of the KB can finish off its own targets, but that doesn't make it ideal.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I ran a very expensive human PB for a while and I just hated it. It killed slowly because it kept scattering things out of its own AOE radius, essentially guaranteeing that it would not hit its target cap after the alpha strike. It's just counter-intuitive.
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This is something that has been explained ten thousand times by a thousand different people in the Kheldian and Blaster forums over the five years I have been here.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
As for ST's, the bread and butter of his attack chain was R Strike. Even finishing up bosses, it would require constant repositioning of self running Strike>Bolt>Blast because the target would be continually knocked out of melee and I'd have to chase it down, making it take longer. Sure my Warshade runs Shadow Blast in his ST chain and that has a chance to KB, but it's rarely an issue compared to PB's.
Edit: I hovered my PB for the reason you mention, but it does nothing to alleviate the Scatter from Seekers or Solar Flare. |
Suspend your personal preferences and style choice for the moment and try to imagine how "someone" else other than you decides to deploy their PB attacks.
First and foremost, this person does not run around chasing anything they use Combat Flight and hover. They use hover to move and re-position themselves over targets to deploy the large AOE openers if they decide to open with that kind of attack. If a target is out of melee range after using Radiant Strike, they just use a ranged attack or re-position via hover and deploy a flyby Incandescent Strike(the hold) on the tough melee target etc...
While I TOTALLY respect the fact that you don't like using KB or being on teams where KB is not used properly it is nothing more than that mate. Proper deployment and style preferences are what is at issue here that is what did not synergize well in your case as described.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Edit: I removed everything in this post, because I believe my KB argument isn't only off topic, but I don't want it to get any further out of hand with long quote replies ect ect ect.
THB:
Just because knockback slows down your playstyle, doesn't mean it's a problem.
Not every player ignorantly tosses around their knock back like it doesn't exist; from your statements that's how it seems you see things. It disrupts efficiency, therefore it's a problem. Which is entirely false.
If you've ever played with me outside of a farm, or KFs you would know that I'm not one of those Ignorant knock back fiends. If i know that someone is bothered by my knockback, i do something about it. plain and simple
I've said this once and I'll say it again: Knockback isn't the problem, it's how the player uses it.
End of discussion. Whatever you have to say on that won't change my opinion, just like whatever I say won't change yours.
Also* THB, if my knockback was that much of a bother to you, why didn't you say anything? On pug teams I always advertise that I know my knockback can be annoying, and if it is a bother to the team to let me know so i can plan according to the team's play style.
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It's relevant because removing the KB is the most important change that needs to happen to Photon Seekers aside from finding a way to beef up the damage. |
Originally Posted by Bionut911
Edit: I removed everything in this post, because I believe my KB argument isn't only off topic, but I don't want it to get any further out of hand with long quote replies ect ect ect.
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THB: Just because knockback slows down your playstyle, doesn't mean it's a problem. |
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| Not every player ignorantly tosses around their knock back like it doesn't exist; from your statements that's how it seems you see things. It disrupts efficiency, therefore it's a problem. Which is entirely false. |
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| If you've ever played with me outside of a farm, or KFs you would know that I'm not one of those Ignorant knock back fiends. If i know that someone is bothered by my knockback, i do something about it. plain and simple |
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Also* THB, if my knockback was that much of a bother to you, why didn't you say anything? On pug teams I always advertise that I know my knockback can be annoying, and if it is a bother to the team to let me know so i can plan according to the team's play style.
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So, if I'm reading this right (and mind you I prefer playing a corpsesucker than a mcbrightybright), Photon Seekers, the PB's ostensibly pet power, tends to see use as a strong ranged AoE power - basically a slightly fancier version of a crashless ranged nuke.
And, well. Since I believe in reusing power ideas, have one I came up with for my Praetorian Epics idea:
How would you people who have more experience than I with Peacebringers feel if Photon Seekers worked like this:
* Cast power at ground next to thine hated foes.
* Power spawns a pseudopet. A patch if you will. Hell, could re-use the fancy glowy from the ground graphics
* Said patch tries to -- well, attacks every mob (well, up to a maximum - 16, maybe?) within its radius. It doesn't deal damage. It just spawns a pet. A photon seeker. One for every mob affected. It doesn't even have to move.
* After a moment, exactly long enough for the mobs to give a heartfelt "Oh pancakes", the photon seekers explode, dealing damage in an area. Oh, of course, the damage would have to be reduced, and the target cap would have to be carefully tweaked.
* The end result is (should be) immediately - apparent a power that deals more and more damage as more mobs are caught in the patch.
There'd be a lot of balancing tweaking involved, of course, especially with the target caps of the patch and the explosion. The more seekers the patch can spawn, the less targets and less damage each would deal, and the power would saturate slower.
Oh, also. There would have to be some way to make the seekers not explode at once. Reason one is that it sounds better when it's a chain of explosions. Reason two is that the game, uh, doesn't like it when multiples of the same sound get triggered simultaneously. It gets loud.
Thoughts, folks?
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes