Quote:
The figures I gave are only "so far" therefore not final so I withdrew them as not worth using. They would be higher/lower in an ambush or patrol, depending on if the pet lives or dies. Mostly die probably. I'd sooner see a typical farm that you move spawn to spawn with and an ambush farm. I can get an average life expectency in an ambush farm and use that.
|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Hmm, I could have sworn I saw a response here earlier. Did the forums eat your post, New Dawn?
Anyways, I recall it being about measuring the DPS of fluffies in a farm mission. Wouldn't it be better to measure that in a series of normal/radio missions? Most farms I know of are ambush/patrol ones, and I don't see how that would be a reliable estimate of the living duration or DPS capability of them. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
You really need the life expectancy on a mission where you move from spawn to spawn, because that is how most people play, and it also means that even in Nova form because you will do the first attack you will get the aggro and eat the alpha and your fluffies will attack from range so not only live longer but get better use from their AoE.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I can get an average life expectency in an ambush farm and use that.
|
I don't think I ever struggled to keep my fluffies alive unless it was an AV, and there was a time when I farmed the Battle Maiden map (Because I actually found it fun!). So the life expectancy for my fluffies was however long they last (90s? 120s? I don't have mids open at the moment so can't remember).
Ambush farms are really badly suited because there are so many mobs you will have no chance of holding the aggro on them all and it will spill over to the fluffies.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
|
And I'm going to come right out and call shenanigans anyway if you use only ambush farms as a baseline for fluffy survival. Since ambush farms are designed to be survived only with heavy inspiration use, it would weigh the outcome too much in favor of photon seekers, to the point that you might be accused of doing it deliberately (although not by me).
In the interest of avoiding that, I'd suggest including data on a sliding scale, with normal missions being the low end and ambush farms being the high end.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I think I can use the ambush farm life expectency and still not provide shenanigans Smiling. I could use different situations all at once.
Right now with a basic build the spawn to spawn thing averages about 35dps per pet, time between spawns taking away dps and the multihit from cones not counted. This will be higher and only increase with better builds and better farming. I want to get an average expectation of cone use and number of targets. It's unpredictable but it'll be more realistic. I also might learn what makes the difference between good use of cones and no use of cones.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
No, because the increased mob count of an ambush farm will overwhelm the aggro cap and instantly kill your fluffies. The DPS of a dead pet is zero, I'm afraid. Many people don't even bother with them on farms, for precisely that reason. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I think I can use the ambush farm life expectency and still not provide shenanigans Smiling. I could use different situations all at once.
|
This data will be skewed if you're basing all your numbers off of farming data only.
Quote:
I find the 35 dps per pet encouraging, provided it holds true under extended analysis. Can you tell if hasten has any effect - it isn't supposed to, but I've read on multiple occasions that the hasten glow that your extracted essence inherits if you have hasten running when summoned isn't just a carryover of the graphic, and my own observations seemed to confirm that fluffies summoned when the warshade is hastened also inherit the buff. I can't vouch for it with confidence, however. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong by a long shot.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I think I can use the ambush farm life expectency and still not provide shenanigans Smiling. I could use different situations all at once.
Right now with a basic build the spawn to spawn thing averages about 35dps per pet, time between spawns taking away dps and the multihit from cones not counted. This will be higher and only increase with better builds and better farming. I want to get an average expectation of cone use and number of targets. It's unpredictable but it'll be more realistic. I also might learn what makes the difference between good use of cones and no use of cones. |
What builds are you working with? Will you be posting those with your findings?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Does depend on how you go about the ambush farm I think, no two builds are the same. I bet I can do one and keep their life expectency above 0s, don't forget I am going from +0 to +4
|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No, because the increased mob count of an ambush farm will overwhelm the aggro cap and instantly kill your fluffies. The DPS of a dead pet is zero, I'm afraid. Many people don't even bother with them on farms, for precisely that reason.
This data will be skewed if you're basing all your numbers off of farming data only. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Very easy for me to find out if haste has any effect. My builds are pure builds cept with haste. It's easy to predict ST attacks so I have made sure I got all AoEs, kbs will be a prob but how much of one is the question.
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I find the 35 dps per pet encouraging, provided it holds true under extended analysis. Can you tell if hasten has any effect - it isn't supposed to, but I've read on multiple occasions that the hasten glow that your extracted essence inherits if you have hasten running when summoned isn't just a carryover of the graphic, and my own observations seemed to confirm that fluffies summoned when the warshade is hastened also inherit the buff. I can't vouch for it with confidence, however. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong by a long shot.
What builds are you working with? Will you be posting those with your findings? |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
No matter what, if you are doing this in an ambush farm, the data will be false in almost all circumstances. Try it in an actual mission, a repeatable one. Do a lot of Council paper missions and see what happens there, in an actual in-game situation.
Quote:
I am looking to do it in all types. In an ambush farm it's not hard nor crazy to find or establish time where pets can be alright. That time taken from the total time in the farm will give me realistic figures for that situation.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
No matter what, if you are doing this in an ambush farm, the data will be false in almost all circumstances. Try it in an actual mission, a repeatable one. Do a lot of Council paper missions and see what happens there, in an actual in-game situation.
|
There is no one scenario.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Did a non ambush farm with Alien One this morning, two things, the maximum damage potential inclusive of AoE of Dark Extraction and the actual Damage potential is quite a tricky one to quantify plus nowhere near eachother. Practise is as important as theory. It's easier to get the best out of Photon Seekers, so the gap between the two is closer than what you can imagine in reality than on Excel. But whole builds need to be compared.
I still got testing to do with other WS farmers. I'll have possibly the only PB with all AoEs so it might be just left to me to overcome KB odds.
With Dark Extraction to see a better chance of cone, it helps that, should they stop and fire from 80ft mobs can be drawn in closer to them. If they move closer themselves then they may come in within 20ft of the enemies for splash damage goodness and get defeated. The cones are 60ft max range so an idea of how close you need the mobs to them is nice, and setting that up is tricky. Getting the most out of each pet is something of a challenge, less so for Dwarves.
Someone said about hasted pets and whether or not it had any effect on their attack rate, well Alienone was with me and basically nope.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Wait ... are you saying that Excel *DOESN'T* hold all the answers?!?|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
so the gap between the two is closer than what you can imagine in reality than on Excel.
|
Who Are You?? And what have you done with New Dawn!?!
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Quote:
Might want to give this a go with the PB hover blasting using effective KD vs just KB blasting everything willy nilly.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Practise is as important as theory.
|
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
No, same New Dawn. You would have to dig up where I specifically stated that Excel has all the answers if I didn't think you were joking but this does align the stars somewhat nearer to what I was saying in the beginning so let's not count chickens yet. I definitely want to see more Warshades in action. It won't be an e-peen contest, no one is under pressure to perform and results are the most important thing. Whatever setting can help get the best results is good. I do understand that playing to not only farm but try and get Dark Extraction to use cones most is a tricky thing. I am about to farm and aim to establish a technique for it right now.
|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Wait ... are you saying that Excel *DOESN'T* hold all the answers?!?
Who Are You?? And what have you done with New Dawn!?! |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Yeah, I could easily farm with Nova form, Flying Human form all KBs, Ground Human form all KBs and Dwarf form. With just one build and compare times. I would of been a bit patient for the macros to be fixed anyway but I'd look to do that this week. Results will work off of a percentage, one way 100% another way 20% slower etc, another way 30% slower.
|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Might want to give this a go with the PB hover blasting using effective KD vs just KB blasting everything willy nilly.
|
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Not really sure what you are saying but ok no worries.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Yeah, I could easily farm with Nova form, Flying Human form all KBs, Ground Human form all KBs and Dwarf form. With just one build and compare times. I would of been a bit patient for the macros to be fixed anyway but I'd look to do that this week. Results will work off of a percentage, one way 100% another way 20% slower etc, another way 30% slower.
|
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
heh heh...this made me think "LOLZ, warshades suck because they need everything clumped together." and "LOLZ, melee sucks because a little KB and they suddenly cant hit targets that ranged characters still can"|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I've teamed with your PB on a wide variety of TF's in the game which are standard group content. Your Peacebringer sucks, just like every other Peacebringer in the game. It constantly griefs my Warshade's self buffs and AOE's
|
It seems like the standard "Play like me or you are doing it wrong!" affair.
People seem to like my PB on teams. I fill in for what the team lacks, or I just go after Lts if the team is balanced. If it is an all DPS team, they are happy to have a lobster smashing around sending enemies flying all over the place. If it is too tanky, they have never minded a bomber-squid or smashy human doing the DPS that they cant. If it is balanced, I tend to solo-crush LTs while the DPSers murder bosses and AoE minions before either really matters.
I can't say I have ever gotten complaints, or anything but "That was awesome, thanks for joining us." for that matter. Solo, I am better at ST anyway, so spread enemies are just a bunch of ST soon-to-be victims...and if they are melee, they are emo-raging about not being able to hit me because they got KBed out of their reach XD
then again...my point may be invalidated by the fact that I don't play with TEH S00PER 1337 HAXorz Min/Maxorz...and I am a noob...*shrug*
Disclaimeroid - my WS is 50 while my PB is only 40something...I love them both. I prefer soloing with my WS, and teaming with my PB. I choose to play classes that are not effected by things like KB [control or ranged].
--
WAAAAY BACK to on topic.
Your idea seems to make just another patch out of photon >seekers<. I am curious what changes you would make and keep them as pets? I was thinking a self hellfire power, similar to deamon summoning, but without the buff...or, summon weaker seekers, but one per target within a LARGE range [to a cap ofc] and have them go after their intended targets, but follow/agressive on you if none remain. Like an AoE that hits up to X targets, but X targets WILL GET HIT even if the seeker as to follow you [for a min? 45sec?] to find something to hit.
Personally I am not a fan of KB on the seekers, but it is a thematic dislike...it would be cooler to just have them absorb into their target and do a bunch of damage with no KB or explosion. My absortion effect could even lend itself to stunning...catering well to those that whine about KB.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
No, same New Dawn. You would have to dig up where I specifically stated that Excel has all the answers...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Use EXCEL, don't be subjective.
|
I chuckled when I read Redlynne's comment, as it's certainly the flavor you have given throughout this thread. If it's not your intention to do so... you need to work on your writing skills and what you say. And I do not mean that in a harsh way... there have been plenty of times in this thread where you have thrown me and others for a loop.Anyway, I'm still glad people are working and caring on all this. I just haven't had time for the forums lately, but I appreciate THB and others still talking to Arbiter Hawk and posting their Kheldian concerns. Talking about it doesn't mean action will happen, but doing nothing certainly means no action will happen.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I get pretty passionate during my anti Peacebringer rants because at heart, my Peacebringer is one of my favorite characters. I get frustrated and carried away sometimes when I complain about their deficiencies because I want them to be corrected so badly. I want it to at least be a possibility that my Peacebringer be as effective as my Warshade, but there are still some fundamental design flaws in the AT that need to be corrected before that can happen.|
Originally Posted by Freefall
heh heh...this made me think "LOLZ, warshades suck because they need everything clumped together." and "LOLZ, melee sucks because a little KB and they suddenly cant hit targets that ranged characters still can"
It seems like the standard "Play like me or you are doing it wrong!" affair. People seem to like my PB on teams. I fill in for what the team lacks, or I just go after Lts if the team is balanced. If it is an all DPS team, they are happy to have a lobster smashing around sending enemies flying all over the place. If it is too tanky, they have never minded a bomber-squid or smashy human doing the DPS that they cant. If it is balanced, I tend to solo-crush LTs while the DPSers murder bosses and AoE minions before either really matters. I can't say I have ever gotten complaints, or anything but "That was awesome, thanks for joining us." for that matter. Solo, I am better at ST anyway, so spread enemies are just a bunch of ST soon-to-be victims...and if they are melee, they are emo-raging about not being able to hit me because they got KBed out of their reach XD then again...my point may be invalidated by the fact that I don't play with TEH S00PER 1337 HAXorz Min/Maxorz...and I am a noob...*shrug* Disclaimeroid - my WS is 50 while my PB is only 40something...I love them both. I prefer soloing with my WS, and teaming with my PB. I choose to play classes that are not effected by things like KB [control or ranged]. |
By the way I'm glad that your first ever post on the forum was dedicated to taking the time to passionately disagree with me about something. I'm nothing if not inspiring!
Quote:
You know, TBH, you're right. There are some problems with the the PB AT that is detrimental to not only it's playstyle, but also the team environment. But I do want to say this: I've recently shelved my shade'. Temporarily of course, but I've come to the conclusion that the PB's need some love. Paragon City's populace and heroes seem to have this very negative view of the PBs in general, and I believe this closely related to the fact there aren't very many experienced Kheldian players (like most the people in this forum) to show them that we aren't as bad as they think.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I get pretty passionate during my anti Peacebringer rants because at heart, my Peacebringer is one of my favorite characters. I get frustrated and carried away sometimes when I complain about their deficiencies because I want them to be corrected so badly. I want it to at least be a possibility that my Peacebringer be as effective as my Warshade, but there are still some fundamental design flaws in the AT that need to be corrected before that can happen!
|
After gaining some inspiration from your PB's build, I decided that I wanted to create one hell of a PB. The reason I shelved my shade' was because I unslotted some pretty important enhancements from him and then placed them into my PB. I'm not going to lie; this is the most fun I've had playing my PB in a very, very long time. He is a force to be reckoned with. I've managed to take on wave after wave of +3x8 Malta in a tip mission without dying once (even if I did, I have a self-rez to accomodate for the minor downtime), I've held Anti-Matter's attention throughout Keyes Island, dragging him through reactors to different consoles so they could be deactivated with relative ease, and I've saved some people using Glowing Touch and my Dwarf antogonize. I'm -really- happy with how this toon has turned out after rebuilding him, and I've actually had a couple people I've teamed with comment on my build in a positive way, saying they've never seen a PB do the things I did while on their team (which just goes to say that most of the general public has not seen a lot of these forum goers in-action lol.)
What I'm getting at here is this: PB's, while with their faults, are still pretty damn viable with the right build. Of course, this could be said with just about any build, but the one thing I love most about my Triform PB is the fact he is so incredibly versatile. I can Tank where needed. I can offer some support here and there. And I can devastate mobs of enemies in no time flat. And my build is still missing two purple sets I wanted! I'm excited to see just how well he will perform with them. Also, another thing I'd like to point out about the PB that I truly do enjoy (when looking from a WS's standpoint) is the fact I don't rely on a constant supply of food to maintain efficiency. In fact, I'm the opposite of the Warshade. I benefit when I wither away my foes, rather than losing a well-needed feed to continue fighting. It's feels good, having my Light Form and Inner Light up and ready whenever I need them.
Disclaimer: I'm not hating on WS's. In fact, I still love mine. WS's have and always will be amazing.
My next video I'm getting ready to begin recording and creating is really going push my PB to the limits. I don't want to give away the surprise, but I will say that the mission I'll be running could very well be considered "Kheldian Hell" by most PB's/WS's. In fact, I'm worried it'll be so hard I may not be able to complete it.
Templar of Truth Level 50+++ Triform Peacebringer - Server Freedom
Templar of Judgement Level 50+++ Triform Warshade - Server Freedom
Gaze into the Abyss... OR ...Walk in the LightTemplar of Judgement Level 50+++ Triform Warshade - Server Freedom
And you thought eight Kheldians were awesome...
I play my PB on Freedom all the and do not encounter this PB hate deal you are going on about. Then again I tend to team a lot with channel mates that are vets etc....
Having said that I itrial and TF PUG it quite a bit too and never encounter this hate just general ignorance about Khelds.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
I "may not pass" the Grey Pilgrim ... but I can at least give him some amusement. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I chuckled when I read Redlynne's comment
|
Mission Accomplished.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Quote:
Feel free to quote where I have said something to the tune of Excel holding all the answers. I believe in being objective. I do believe in using Excel to work out what can be done to certain limits over time. I also believe in the practical side of things. Always had. The difference between my mind and other peoples is, usually people discover something then have to spill it all over the forums hoping for some acclaim. I would discover then say little, usually something unspecific but hopefully enough for a Dev to read and possibly see what I mean. I don't believe in everyone knowing what they know because they're spoon fed it. This is why I indirectly suggest the F Off & Find Out approach. It's what I am trying to do now.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
I "may not pass" the Grey Pilgrim ... but I can at least give him some amusement.
Mission Accomplished. |
I am still waiting on a couple of people who are willing to have me watch them farm with their WS. I am looking for an average, realistic life span of Dark Extraction and likelihood of cones which can lead to a method to get the most out of Dark Extraction but the immediate thing is a typical expectation from DE.
I am still opposed to those builds being mirror images, gold standards and comparable. Comparing them is hardly fair. Might as well compare Linford Christie to a man with a artificial leg.
Not without a life. Things get done when they get done. When I am happy with the results. I wouldn't be too afraid to go back on myself and say "well some KB could be removed".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Sounds like THB's AE arc that's filled with nothing but +4/x8 Void Hunters. That was...interesting, to say the least.
|
Originally Posted by Diggaroo
My next video I'm getting ready to begin recording and creating is really going push my PB to the limits. I don't want to give away the surprise, but I will say that the mission I'll be running could very well be considered "Kheldian Hell" by most PB's/WS's. In fact, I'm worried it'll be so hard I may not be able to complete it.
|
Hmm, I could have sworn I saw a response here earlier. Did the forums eat your post, New Dawn?
Anyways, I recall it being about measuring the DPS of fluffies in a farm mission. Wouldn't it be better to measure that in a series of normal/radio missions? Most farms I know of are ambush/patrol ones, and I don't see how that would be a reliable estimate of the living duration or DPS capability of them.