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Yeah me either. >.< |
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I don't like where this topic is heading.
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Knockback works with some people, and it doesn't for others. It's just a preference and I doubt KB will be going anywhere anytime soon.
Agree to disagree sep?
Otherwise we're just going to be arguing in circles.
No, because it's a gigantic flaw in the Archetype and something that needs to be addressed if it's ever going to be on par with other AT's.
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Honestly this statement alone pretty much disqualifies you as a person the devs should remotely consider listening too for ANYTHING related to the PB. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Your Peacebringer sucks, just like every other Peacebringer in the game.
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I mean it is one thing not to like Energy Blaster and PB powers due to KB, but to say they suck because you don't like them and they don't fit your play style is pretty petty. Devig.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Honestly this statement alone pretty much disqualifies you as a person the devs should remotely consider listening too for ANYTHING related to the PB.
I mean it is one thing not to like Energy Blaster and PB powers due to KB, but to say they suck because you don't like them and they don't fit your play style is pretty petty. Devig. |
They don't function in a synergistic or productive way.
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They do when deployed correctly, but you have already disqualified yourself as a person of reason in the discussion sorry. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
They don't function in a synergistic or productive way.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
You realize this isn't just a matter of opinion, right? The Devs have already told us that the KB is staying in place on Peacebringers to prevent overpowering. I forgot who posted it originally, but it wasn't too long ago- Someone asked about changing Solar Flare KB to KD and was told that they were afraid if Solar Flare did KD it would be overpowered. The KB that you seem to be convinced is something I'm too thick to use properly and that you've figured out some ancient wiseman's secret about has already been acknowledged by the development team to be a mechanic that is there in order to make the AT less potent. The only problem here is convincing them that KD wouldn't be overpowering, because it really wouldn't at all.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You realize this isn't just a matter of opinion, right? The Devs have already told us that the KB is staying in place on Peacebringers to prevent overpowering. I forgot who posted it originally, but it wasn't too long ago- Someone asked about changing Solar Flare KB to KD and was told that they were afraid if Solar Flare did KD it would be overpowered. The KB that you seem to be convinced is something I'm too thick to use properly and that you've figured out some ancient wiseman's secret about has already been acknowledged by the development team to be a mechanic that is there in order to make the AT less potent. The only problem here is convincing them that KD wouldn't be overpowering, because it really wouldn't at all.
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Actually, if you back up a second and go back and read how "you" presented it then you would realize that NO you are acting like it is NOT a personal preference and that it is fact, hence the all PB's suck types of petty comments.
If you had presented it as your opinion and not the blanket petty they all suck comment, I doubt anyone of us would have commented or tried to present examples of how it does NOT suck, depending on how you deploy the powers or if one is not tainted with the petty the entire AT sucks because I don't like it tag line.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Actually, if you back up a second and go back and read how "you" presented it then you would realize that NO you are acting like it is NOT a personal preference and that it is fact, hence the all PB's suck types of petty comments.
If you had presented it as your opinion and not the blanket petty they all suck comment, I doubt anyone of us would have commented or tried to present examples of how it does NOT suck, depending on how you deploy the powers or if one is not tainted with the petty the entire AT sucks because I don't like it tag line. |
You're trying to argue that Knockback is beneficial to the AT when the devs have already acknowledged that the knockback is there as a limiting effect to prevent the AT from being overpowered. It is not a matter of opinion, it is fact. Knockback is detrimental to Peacebringers and those who play with them. We should not be discussing something that's already been established, which you guys are hell bent on doing- We should be focused on making a strong case for why changing KB to KD would not be overpowering.
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DUDE... now you are getting a bit crazy about this thing and trying to twist it so your personal preference comments trump people's actual effectiveness using PB's daily and that is just a place I will not go with you man....|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You're trying to argue that Knockback is beneficial to the AT when the devs have already acknowledged that the knockback is there as a limiting effect to prevent the AT from being overpowered. It is not a matter of opinion, it is fact. Knockback is detrimental to Peacebringers and those who play with them. We should not be discussing something that's already been established, which you guys are hell bent on doing- We should be focused on making a strong case for why changing KB to KD would not be overpowering.
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You act like you never played on a team with an Energy blaster or PB that has not tossed everything out of your personal way, that is straight up stupid man. In addition, you act like you never teamed with a controller with holds, IDK man I think you are just on some kind of hater binge and it has clouded any real possibility of reason that might be underneath all of that stacked pettiness.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
DUDE... now you are getting a bit crazy about this thing and trying to twist it so your personal preference comments trump people's actual effectiveness using PB's daily and that is just a place I will not go with you man....
You act like you never played on a team with an Energy blaster or PB that has not tossed everything out of your personal way, that is straight up stupid man. In addition, you act like you never teamed with a controller with holds, IDK man I think you are just on some kind of hater binge and it has clouded any real possibility of reason that might be underneath all of that stacked pettiness. |
No. I'm telling you point blank that the Devs have told us that the knockback on Peacebringer powers is not going to be changed to Knockdown because they are afraid that would make Peacebringers overpowered. I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm sorry that you're unable to accept it but I guess that's your prerogative.
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No what actually happened is Castle said he did not want to make the singular change to Solar Flare power because he felt the singular power might be overpowered for the desired power for the AT he had envisoned. That does not mean KB is not effective, that does not mean KB is bad or useless, that does not mean that PB's suck etc....|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
No. I'm telling you point blank that the Devs have told us that the knockback on Peacebringer powers is not going to be changed to Knockdown because they are afraid that would make Peacebringers overpowered. I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm sorry that you're unable to accept it but I guess that's your prerogative.
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You made a blanket petty statement that is not true and does not hold true to the PB's played daily in the game and were called on it. The best thing to do now is to go back where you were with the personal preference thing and leave it at that because you not liking KB is never going to make them suck it is only going to continue to show your pettiness about your overstatement.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Oh, for the love of...
Listen, THB. I'm not going to debate this with you here. You hate knock back. We get it. It is your personal opinion that it is detrimental. I don't care. I. Don't. Care. What I DO care about is you making us look bad by representing Kheld Fridays in an event and then saying on a thread a couple inches away "Oh I think you guys that like to play PB's suck, and are useless."
I'm not asking you to shut up, or not express your opinion. I am, however, asking you to use tact.
For all the lurkers reading this--his opinion is not a reflection on the rest of us at Kheldian Fridays.
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I was giving specific examples from my personal experiences, not projecting anything on anyone else who happened to be there. I'm not part of a union or anything, I like playing with you guys and you're my friends. That doesn't mean I have to conform to some PR position. I'm not speaking for anyone else. I'm speaking for myself. I have friends who play PB's. I don't care that people play PB's. I want to play my PB and I want it to be as effective as my Warshade, but the design limitations make that currently impossible and I think it's unfortunate. That's why I'm posting here. I want Peacebringers to be viable in comparison to other AT's, and as it stands right now they are not. I don't and I never have encouraged gating any content or events to Peacebringers. I think people should have the option to play what they enjoy, but just because others have fun playing something doesn't make its performance up to par from a mechanical standpoint. This isn't about me saying no one should play Peacebringers, this is about me stating a gigantic flaw with the AT that has been acknowledged as a factor implemented to limit their performance by the devs when it isn't necessary to do so.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Oh, for the love of...
Listen, THB. I'm not going to debate this with you here. You hate knock back. We get it. It is your personal opinion that it is detrimental. I don't care. I. Don't. Care. What I DO care about is you making us look bad by representing Kheld Fridays in an event and then saying on a thread a couple inches away "Oh I think you guys that like to play PB's suck, and are useless." I'm not asking you to shut up, or not express your opinion. I am, however, asking you to use tact. For all the lurkers reading this--his opinion is not a reflection on the rest of us at Kheldian Fridays. |
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I brought up this specific point, in person with Arbiter Hawk at the last Player Summit. THB is accurately summarizing the point Arbiter Hawk made with me, in person, on this subject, and in the Beta Forums, also on this subject. Arbiter Hawk is the one in "control" of this decision, and he HAS expressed his opinion clearly in a consistent manner through more than one channel and on different occasions. This is a "from the horse's mouth" sort of thing. It's not up for debate as to whether or not this is how the Devs feel about and/or interpret the situation. We don't have to forensically analyze second hand evidence for this one to reach a conclusion. We've been TOLD.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I'm telling you point blank that the Devs have told us that the knockback on Peacebringer powers is not going to be changed to Knockdown because they are afraid that would make Peacebringers overpowered.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Not wanting to change Solar Flare from Knockback to Knockdown because that would make Solar Flare overpowered does not mean that the rest of the PB's powers were even a part of that discussion to say they were is false.
No dev has said that they feel that KB is a gigantic design flaw for PB or Energy Blasters powers, nor have they acknowledged KB as a factor implemented to limit the performance of any other power than Solar Flare.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Like you said THB, KB isn't exactly productive and yeah i agree, but that's just something I have fun using in-game. CoX is exactly that: a G-A-M-E. Games are meant to be played to have fun. If someone has more fun tossing bad guys around rather than killing them where they stand and maxing their stats, so be it. That's how they should play the game. Plain and simple. If you don't like knockback on a PB, then play your warshade.
You obviously see them as more superior, so why try to make a Pesudo'Shade when you already have one to play with. They're different ATs, with different mechanics and playstyles...deal with it.
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Wait, so your not agreeing, to disagree with me? Even though your opinion JUST disagreed with mine. Now you're arguing for the sake of arguing. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
No, because it's a gigantic flaw in the Archetype and something that needs to be addressed if it's ever going to be on par with other AT's.
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I'm no longer wasting my time with this fruitless debate. I know my opinion, and yours isnt going to change. I'm mature enough to accept that and not care.
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You make a comment like that on a Kheldian forum. Seriously? You're making a fool of yourself. It's time to get out for your mom's basement and go for a walk and chill.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
*snip*
I've teamed with your PB on a wide variety of TF's in the game which are standard group content. Your Peacebringer sucks, just like every other Peacebringer in the game. It constantly griefs my Warshade's self buffs and AOE's, and it doesn't contribute anything worthwhile enough to cover the loss. A Peacebringer on a team of 7 Warshades is the equivelant of subtracting one Warshade from the team. 6 Warshades can do things more efficiently than 7 Warshades and one Peacebringer. I have an even better example for you. Do you know how many times we did an ITF for KF's? There were always Peacebringers there, there were always defeats, and it always took a relatively long time. The other day, myself, AIB, and DoomRider did a three Warshade MoITF more quickly than any of the ITF's that were ever done on KF's. I suspect a lack of Peacebringers hindering progress had a lot to do with that. |
Knockback is part of the game m-e-c-h-a-n-i-c-s, leave it alone. Please stop ramming your play style down other players throats.
The OP has an idea, which I personally like. It's creative, unique, and I think it's worthy of a mature discussion. Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen now. Be that as it may, it's time to go knockback a few foe with my sub par Peacebringer
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Kheldian forum in a topic about improving an underperforming Peacebringer power is a good place to make a comment about what's wrong with the power specifically and how some of the same issues apply to the AT as a whole. Thanks for the rest of your assessment, I appreciate your concern and I'm glad you can tell exactly how chill I am and where I'm posting from because you disagree with something I said on the internet.|
Originally Posted by Trip
You make a comment like that on a Kheldian forum. Seriously? You're making a fool of yourself. It's time to get out for your mom's basement and go for a walk and chill.
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| Knockback is part of the game m-e-c-h-a-n-i-c-s, leave it alone. Please stop ramming your play style down other players throats. |
Shorter answer:
Herding Good
Scattering Bad
Drink more Ovaltine.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Arbiter Hawk is a great guy. I have seen him in game a few times and he has given me permission to post this communication.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Hi.
Currently, there are some statements that some seem to be attributing to you regarding the Peacebringer's powers and the Knockback they include. Specifically that you have told players on more than one occasion that turning Knockback into Knockdown would make Peacebringer overpowered. In the past I do recall Castle addressing this but it was specifically in reference to Solar Flare and no other powers were included. I was wondering if this is indeed a fact or some kind of misunderstanding? In addition to that, there is an additional claim that the devs, you in particular feel that Knockback cuts down/lowers the power and effectiveness of the Peacbringer as an intended design flaw. I was wondering if this is indeed a fact or some kind of misunderstanding? Thanks. |
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
I get quoted out of context a fair bit, so that's not surprising. What I said/meant was that a.) changing KB to KD in PBAOE damage powers would increase potential AoE DPS and that b.) I had made enough fundamental changes to PBs in i21 that I didn't want to risk accidentally making them overpowered/farming machines/etc. by making that change then. I would say the likelihood of that change causing that would be fairly low, but then, if we took footstomp and made it KB instead of KD, Super Strength would go from being one of the most powerful melee attack sets to being one of the weakest - so, it's conceivable, especially in the context of enabling perma-light form in the same patch.
If I were to put bullet points on a board of "what Peacebringers should be", "limited in damage potential by knockback" would certainly not be on that board. That said, players are change-averse in general, so I wouldn't want to go through all the PB powers and change KB to KD or anything like that. For every player that would love it, there's another player out there that would quit playing their kheld in disgust. It's a complex problem. I'm working on a more general solution for allowing people to tailor their knockback strength to their needs without making every power with knockback incredibly powerful mitigation. I also want to make sure that anything we do still allows players who like their knockback to use it without social repurcussions. If we were to add an option to the game to "eliminate all my knockback!", for instance, you'd get a lot of social pressure from the more min/max inf per second crowd to turn off your KB, even if it's what makes a character fun for you, and that's not a situation I'm keen to create. |
It is also nice to see Khelds still on the radar for any additional possible improvements that make sense to them, but don't cater to the extremes that are out there.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
They can easily reduce Solar Flare's damage so it's a knock down instead of a knock back. I usually don't have a big problem with a cone aoe but I really dislike pbaoe knock back because everything is scattered AWAY from you even if you do it at corner.
Anyway, back to the main topic. I forgot to mention that I was REALLY SURPRISED that you can't drop Photon Seekers the way you drop Seeker Drones in /Trap. If I can drop seekers in first to take alpha, then I'll love P. Seekers more.
Can the dev please at least make it Photon Seekers "dropable"?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The only problem I see in this statement is that "too much" knock back makes the gameplay frustrating. I am known to make builds that are less popular. I am used to gimping myself and still enjoy the gameplay a lot (IE Stalkers), but I really think PB has too many knock backs. I can try to knock mobs to a corner but I can't stand Solar Flare's pbaoe kb. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You realize this isn't just a matter of opinion, right? The Devs have already told us that the KB is staying in place on Peacebringers to prevent overpowering.
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Peacebringer is frustrating to play than anything IMO. I find shifting having too many delays and shifting from Nova/Dwarf to Human drop the shields. It is just a frustrating design! In fact, why should there be "shifting delay"? It's not like each form is inherently stronger and you have to put penalties on them. We have to slot EACH attack in EACH form. Isn't that enough penalty? And then they put restrictions on Nova/Dwarf form not being able to use even the simple powers from Power Pool. It's like enough restrictions already! Do they seriously think that if Nova can carry Assault, it's going to break the game?
Let's not talk about being overpowered because if a build is frustrating/annoying to play, I don't care how powerful it is.
Let's fix the "frustrating" part first.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I am glad that you were able to converse with him and hope that the information/clarification he provided will bring about an end to this Kheld on Kheld violence.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Arbiter Hawk is a great guy. I have seen him in game a few times and he has given me permission to post this communication....It is also nice to see Khelds still on the radar for any additional possible improvements that make sense to them, but don't cater to the extremes that are out there.
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The next time you speak with him, do me a favor, and get his people to contact my people so that we can get together and discuss Kheld related issues.
The ATs have problems. I have solutions.
And I assure you the they are not extreme.
You see, there are two kinds of people in this world, those who divide people into two groups and those who do not.
I would be a part of the first group and so, I suspect, are a great many of you. There are people who get things right and there are people who get things wrong. But the interesting thing about those who get things wrong, is that they often get things wrong for the opposite reason(s).
It seems that it is the duty of the "progressives" of this community to continue perpetuating more, and greater, mistakes while it seems that it is the duty of the "conservatives" to see that the many, and often great, mistakes never get fixed.
This year, perhaps more than ever, our community requires compassionate, confident and competent leadership.
We need one who is able to clearly and effectively communicate comprehensive solutions to the ones who are ultimately in control.
We need the voice of common sense to address all of this not uncommon nonsense we frequently read.
And we need a Kheld who can bring change. Change for the betterment of our kind.
In 2012, know that,
"Abe is able!"
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Reading that communication, having exceled the AT myself, I can see his point. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Arbiter Hawk is a great guy. I have seen him in game a few times and he has given me permission to post this communication.
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I wonder if there could be a means to reduce the KB and reduce the Damage per Endurance of a power as a balancing consequence sometime in the future.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I don't like where this topic is heading.