Off the wall Photon Seekers idea

Smiling Joe, thanks for those. I knew you had updated things somewhere. I am sad you have given up on your PB, though. I am admittedly playing my STJ/EA Brute more these days (who is a Praetorian version of my Peacebringer), but I haven't given up on him!

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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei I thought my sig explained that to some degree. It is what each person makes of it depending on build and playstyle, which means it's versatile. I don't want to give the wrong impression, but I remember in I9 they said they were not going to make the Solar Flare change from KB but would look into it working while hovering since many PB's hover fight and they did that. I at that time was for KD, but after playing it for years I know how to work it and the recent change in casting works well for my style. Pulsar's change worked well for me as well and while nice there is no pressing need to up the mag on the stun, but I would not fight it. Photon Seekers recent change was very very good to me and my style of play. Increased damage or rain of arrow type casting changes would be welcomed but are not critical. I just don't see anything calling out at me like before the recent changes, but ALWAYS look forward to the "devs" perspective concerning these things. For every Lord Xenite with a really really good suggestion there are ten other horrifically bad suggestions that essentially change the Kheldian to this or that person's favorite AT. Bugger on that ish.

I don't want Peacebringers to have a different or new playstyle, so we can agree there.

Not really seeing your reasoning with the other stuff. Sure, you can kind of/sort of control the KB from Solar Flare if you're hovering (though that requires a certain kind of playstyle, rather than being open to the player's choice), but no other melee PBAOE damage power has that same issue. War Mace/Battle Axe? No problem. SS, Broadsword, Katana, Fire Melee (and more)? No problem. There are no good reasons for keeping the KB in Solar Flare when it was removed from melee damage PBAOEs YEARS AGO. Peacebringers do not do scads of damage in human form and the KB in this power weakens an already weaker performing set.

I have talked Pulsar to death earlier. I'm not sure why anyone is content to use a weak, not useful PBAOE mez (and it is not useful... I want the KB out of Solar Flare, but Solar Flare and Incandescent together can do more than Pulsar might do).

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Originally Posted by New Dawn Last thing I'd want to see in any section is one person saying jump and the other person saying "how high?". We need to question and answer for ourselves not watching Fox News and believing everything it said without investigating the news brought to people by other countries sort of thing. I will be comparing an SO build to another first of all as that is what the game is still built around but then looking further down the line would be interesting.

Funny. I could have sworn I've been asking you to back up your statements for... ages. I'll be nice and tell you stop being Fox News.

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Originally Posted by New Dawn There is more to them than that, I impressed people when I used a PB for a defender whilst using a Scrapper for a Tank, doing Scirocco. Yeah that's all we need, not even more than a SO build. You could give that dude nothing and take from him everything. It's all there, its just what the creative mind seeks to do with it. The Kheld has many avenues to go down, but people generally pick certain ones, certains one that maybe in truth what they need for 99% of the game, but again the game was balanced around everyone on SOs. The All Kheld Team on SOs is capable of much imo not just in theory but in practise. WS, Dwarf is a poorer Tanker. PBs can aid better duct tape defensive manuevers. There are going to be pros and cons to each but if you wanted the same thing from both types you could be in for a disappointment as there are pros and cons to each.

Wait, what? There is something missing here. If a Scrapper was able to tank Scirocco for your team (with you "defending"), then he probably was not SO'd (or other teammates were buffing him, or he used a lot of insps). All your Peacebringer could do for him is throw an occasional heal his way. You can't buff his resists or his defense, you have a paltry heal.

Sure, heals are nice on STF (that's usually all my Fire/Fire Tank needs on Recluse, though I use insps to get my defense and resists high enough to stand up to his ridiculous damage and +to hit), but he had to either have some buffs from other teammates going, or inspiration use. It's commonplace for teams I've played with to just pull all four patrons at once, but that's usually with someone that can take more heat than a Scrapper, and more help than a Peacebringer can give. My IO'd Fire Tank (with higher resists than most Scrappers get) had issues with the patrons before being Incarnated, so I'm skeptical that you are giving us all the info in this example. Seriously, no amount of "creativity" is going to make a Defender or even a pocket Defender out of a Peacebringer. I love 'em, but they are not Defenders.

And yeesh, work on that last paragraph with Dwarves. I'm not even sure what you are trying to say with all that confusion, but there is definitely nothing specific. Just... work on phrasing and be specific so we can discuss that deeper than the obvious "there are pros and cons" to each dwarf form.

Grey Pilgrim unlike Smiling Joe, who I could fall in love with personally you have been very subjective. Need this and need that. What I would like you to do yourself is analyse what Smiling Joe has done and see if you agree on its conclusiveness or look for other factors and possibly add to it.
Anyone else for that matter.

What I am about to do having just got back to the forums as its now 6pm and (I don't know what everyone does with their day but mine is work and then it gets hacked with surprise tasks-families aye) anyway what I shall do is look into Smiling Joes work myself. It does differ. What I have is one draft and then another draft to tidy up my first draft yet still compiling more ideas to it. Replies are concerns that need to be factored in. I am still working on its progress. Then I will proof read mine so I can get my head back into the time I did it, which was weeks ago and then see how much I can practically expect of myself through testing so I am not expecting things from other people on Excel that I couldn't do myself. The WIP is going to be finished in my own sweet time. This is the main AT to most of you. It comes above Stalkers to me.

I'll do as I have them already 2 performance Human only Builds with good IOs and leave off shift forms. I haven't said that WS Nova is worse than a PB or a WS Dwarf Tank tanks better than a PB one anyway. PBs can emulate tankers with Dwarf form when common sense says so, not full time, they are flexibly better than a WS Dwarf, the WS Dwarf is rather better in a Brute type of sense.

The changes done to PBs of late quite probably had to get a PB with IOs to a certain standard but that doesn't really stop the game from being around SOs. Those changes were needed imo, it's working out if further or which further changes are best rather than simply accepting what someone else has done.

I don't like to use Photon Seekers as a ST ever and then at the sametime fluffies can die before they crank out all their DPS. Extracted Essences are the tipping point for you by your conclusion for me its Stygian Circle, the ability to keep going while a PB could be in need of some breath.

I believe your using Photon Seekers on 3 targets. I Think that is unnacceptable. Its so good at hitting anywhere between 6 and 10 +4s with a very basic build. It doesn't reflect the potential in making a comparison with Dark Extraction. Combined with Dawn Strike it is a true asset in burst goodness despite KB even vs 0s Dawn Strike has a large enough radius. In my Excel I picked 10 targets for each Photon, now each Photon may hit 8 targets each causing differing levels of damage across all effected targets, upto 6 targets could be hurt less than the remaining hit. Its pretty tasty and not hard to hit 10. So damage output from getting out photons should be multiplied by an appropriate amount, not 3.

I am looking to get an average idea of every attack when fighting at 0s*8 to +4*8. Its DPS to the entire group that matters, keeping to 3 targets tells me nothing. Attacking fewer targets than possible is not reflective of potential.

I want people to suggest changes like that. If you can hit 10, work on hitting 10.

I admit I'll have yet to thoroughly read through your excel, I just scanned it, as I was finding out what I can and can't expect in actual play tonight. I was running into mobs over and over and at different settings using Pulsar only, or using Photons only, repeating and repeating to get an average expectation at different settings. Quite boring really so fitted in an ITF and helped someone with their alpha slot.

Dam*Max targets*freq will lead to showing a great big gap emphasising potential better between the two types.

Tomorrow I will be doing mobs relying on extracted essence only for damage. I like to see what it does which may well be what is expected, I have never paid much attention to it, probably cos I can't name it.

I had a look at those builds this morning Smiling, the ones you can copy and paste. I think they're not good representationally or even look like counterparts to eachother. If you are going to have Gravimetic Emanation in the human WS then have Proton Scatter in the human form PB.

I do not know what essential benefits the end mods give in Light form, let alone why if any they would give so essential a benefit that the slots are more favourable there than elsewhere.

This is where I think what I am doing in practise might work out. Run into mobs understand what works out on average and slot appropriately not needlessly. Use what works in reality rather than in theory. Don't over nor underslot. Don't have expectations that can not happen. Ofc some will differ in opinion but as a build planner myself I do think the builds are pretty cack. They do not mirror eachother. Also perhaps use Hami's, they were about no? Use them to smarten things up. I wouldn't work off of them builds.

I am going with two builds I prefer to work off of, two pure Kheld builds only Hasten added for kick and skipping unnecessary stuff like quantum acceleration or shadow slip, missing attacks that due to recharge I can leave out, they are built "equally" in cost, still cheaply which is very important for affordability, with an idea of being all rounders offering what Khelds can in terms of support and all that other jazz. As well as two well IO'd human form builds built with the same mindset comparatively mirror opposites that cost a tonne.

The comparison is biased because the builds are junk really.

The nice thing about Google docs is the "save as" feature. I went with Plasma's Gold Standard builds because they were fairly equal, generally accepted as good standard builds, and because putting together spreadsheets of that complexity sucked up most of my available time.

And I'm sure the attack chains could use some optimizing. Hell I got into all KINDS of trouble with the damage cap when I tried to plug in the inherent (Microcosm discovered I'd forgotten to count enhancements toward the damage cap - nearly made my head explode.)

So I'd encourage anyone and everyone to download those spreadsheets and plug their own builds in. But if you do, bear in mind that the spreadsheets assume hasten is always active. They also assume that you drop to human form when necessary to cast all attacks and buffs the instant they recharge. In other words, they represent a snapshot of what each build can do on a *perfect* day. With the exception of aoe's, which I averaged out to 3 targets hit. Otherwise the Peacebringer build would never use the wakie the Warshade just gave it.

One day, I'll finish that spreadsheet I started that took the inherent, procs, IO's, and Achilles' Heel debuffs into account for an ultimate Kheldian spreadsheet.

But not today. Besides, that's why we have Mids.

EDIT - BTW Princess, good to see you back.

It just came to me that perhaps its best to assume that both types can take all powers. No enhancing.

The builds are junk Princess especially for the process of comparison. For the sake of 2 end mods in LF the PBs Dawn Strike has its rechg less than what it could be. I am not hoping for anything, I already have done much that I am happy with. Doing the practical for realistic results right now.

Anyone here pro farmer with their WS able to have me watch them go through a farm mish and count the amount of time Dark Extraction uses its cones and how many it hits to get a estimate on average expectation?

I have done the boring bit of farming myself playing differently to give the pets a average life expectency, spawn expectency, damage expectency (taking figures from combat tab- getting averages from each) also put them in RWZ against dummies to see what they do with different approaches, sometimes the cone dont get used at all.

My Warshade is unfortunately shelved and IO'less at the moment so I can't help.

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Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"