Off the wall Photon Seekers idea

As for the OP's idea, I'm all for seekers getting increased effectiveness in direct relation to the number of enemies present. Scaling effectiveness certainly has a precedent set in our game as is from Soul Drain to Carrion Creepers.

I also would like to know is, a Jibikao inquired, seekers could be given the targetted aoe patch/"droppable" treatment in order to offer some versatility.

Lastly, the Knockback on seekers combined with the current damage and high incidence of mob scattering makes seekers a more chaotic tool in damage mitigation and a questionably effective tool in damage-dealing.

Of all the times i've used seekers, the most damage-efficient and least team-combat disruptive uses for seekers has been when a mob has already been engaged, herded, and taken some damage enough that seekers can finish off minions and lieutenants. At least in those instances, there are less enemies scattered to diminish the AOEs of my allies.

Those quotes from Arbiter Hawk are nice to read, so thanks for posting them. That being said... The idea is no different from what I've already presented. His position clearly warrants posting from the position of Dechs Kaison TF's, rule number.. I forget which number, but that rule is "Any build, any budget, no exceptions" or something to that effect.

While from Dechs' perspective, that is a totally fair, honorable, and flat-out awesome rule, from the perspective of a Developer the same standard does not apply. He's talking about "inf per second" and saying he doesn't think Peacebringers are designed to grief themselves through KB, he's failing to address the players who DO spend billions of inf. to maximize the performance of their characters.

Yes. I understand that most players don't spend billions on their Peacebringers to maximize their performance... But some players care about their characters enough to spend billions upon billions on them, and we expect them to perform up to par with everything else on the same budget when we do.

I just don't think it's fair to dismiss the "min/max" philosophy, because the people who min/max their characters are the people who tend to care most about their characters, and have the most vested interest in their potential.

Arbiter Hawk is saying that he was afraid of Peacebringers becoming farming machines, and then mentioning how powerful Footstomp is, and what it does to make SS good? Well, awesome. SS is good. Footstomp is good. Is he nerfing Footstomp? Hell no, he isn't. Obviously SS isn't overpowered if it hasn't been nerfed and no comment has been made about any pending changes, so why can't Peacebringers perform up to that same standard? Why would it be so horribly overpowering for Peacebringers to have the same AOE potential as Super Strength? Obviously SS is WAI, so why should Kheldians continue to suffer?

As for the KB change he's currently "working on," all he presented the poster with is a boatload of potential problems and no proposed solutions, so I can't say much... All that I can address is the "social issues" he mentioned, and I certainly have a solution for that, which is proposing one of the things he rejected:

Why not let people have the option to turn off their KB?

Arbiter Hawk says that it would lead to social pressure. I say that it would lead to more choices for the players. Sure, some people might not like KB. As it is right now, if you have KB, they can just deny you a spot on their team. If KB could be turned off by the little parrot in PD though, you would have a choice: Either turn off your KB or find another team. Better yet, it would encourage smart KB players to form their own team, assuming they could lead content effectively. No one can kick you because, well, you have the star. Just like anyone else who forms a team.


That's just my sentiment. I appreciate that Arbiter Hawk corresponded with a player and gave permission to re-post, but that's still not cutting it in my opinion. I really think that we need a Dev-Made "Kheldian Issues" thread where we can all present our views and ideas to the powers that be and have some interaction, rather than our current system of posting, speculating, and hoping for results.

Interesting perspective and reinterpretation of his post you have going on over there.

I am just glad the devs are not over there, and based on past and present discussions with them it is more than clear why they are not there and never will be. Thank goodness for the level headed thinking of devs like Arbiter Hawk. Cheers.

I certainly approve of the devs not wanting to go too far and being conservative, as being overly radical or uncautious has led to bad things in the past (over-nerfing of Burn still being my most hated example). Still... that quote from Arbiter Hawk is just what he said in the I21 beta forums, and we were flabbergasted as to how KB to KD with Solar Flare was going to change things that radically at the time... and I still am. The changes had been in beta for quite a bit of time before that, and it was pretty clear to players that while Peacebringers had been improved, they weren't really farming machines.

I guess you can kind of argue that he didn't say that "KB in Solar Flare keeps Peacebringers from being overpowered," as some people have quoted him, but it wasn't far from the truth, and his reasons for keeping the KB were to keep from improving Peacebringers too much. Again, I don't know anyone reasonably arguing that the I21 changes were too far.

He's also correct in saying that many players do not like change, but I also recall some players complaining when Mace went to KD and Clobber had its stun time lowered (in return for a LARGE amount of ST damage that actually put the set on par with other melee sets). The set's performance was improved by the change, even if the aesthetic oomph was a little weaker (something I really can appreciate... but this game isn't designed like X-Men Legends or something else where KB doesn't weaken your performance).

Players being change averse doesn't mean you avoid making changes, it means you make sure those changes are warranted and needed when you make them. Solar Flare not being KB is warranted and needed. It doesn't give any benefit to a Peacebringer player, and I'll point to all the melee sets that lost their KB to anyone that argues different.

I dunno. Arbiter Hawk has always seemed nice and polite to me, but he seems particularly averse to removing KB from powers where it would help to do so (same thing happened with Wormhole for the Grav changes). This while Synapse has posts saying he knows how players don't always like KB so they try to avoid it with new sets... I just don't understand how the two philosophies are jiving, to be honest.

And thinking Arbiter Hawk is a nice guy and liking most of his design decisions doesn't mean you can't disagree with some of 'em.

Well, I've got my plane tickets and hotel room and badge ticket for the next Player Summit ... so I'm sure we'll be "having words" again on this topic (if I can corner him again).

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

It would also be nice if you could mention the toggle suppression issue. I don't think we've ever even had a statement about whether they haven't gotten around to it, or if they're not willing to consider it for some reason. I personally can't see any reason why they wouldn't want toggles to suppress while in forms, combined with faster animations it would make them much less clunky to use, especially for a Warshade it seems like a logical choice to make considering that there are two offensive toggles in Umbral Aura.

I prefer the change from human to one of the other forms, as there should be an animation. Just suddenly nothing is not as interesting as it could be. The only advantage is that it's instant, and if they could do a fast animation that preserved some of the current look of changing from human to a form, I'd prefer it a lot more.

As for why/how it looks weird, I don't know. It seems like you could take out much of the "flexing" phase and just using the burst portion, and it'd look fine. But I don't really have the tools to break it down (like some did for Executioner's Shot with Dual Pistols). I'm willing to accept that some work is needed. What I'm less willing to accept is that I22 did not have the change, many many months after I21.

I did do a wicked long post yesterday but the internet died. So I kept this shorter. I am not going against Champions of change for the sake of it I am seeing Arbiters points cos I do and just remain doing so perhaps until I have worked some other stuff out. I was looking into travel suppression and the advantage of outranging with that and how much of an advantage rechg enh has over a range enh. Ya can dig and dig and just find yaself in a big deep hole.

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim I just don't get what he could possibly be seeing. Solar Flare does damage on par with a lot of Tanker AOEs. Tankers. Not Scrappers. Human form is not equivalent to tankers: Dwarf is. What justification is there to say the power tips the balances too much when it matches up with a weaker damage class?

Most everything seems more on par with Tankers when human form, except for the PBs extra range attacks which have greater range with them. AoEs which ofc hit multiple targets which ofc means damage multiplication which ofc adds up. Then there are the additional flexibilities, no wonder it is to me that PBs aren't as tough as Tanks for what they can do in total.

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim That more do Peacebringer players really have to do to show that KB in Solar Flare (not even their ranged attacks) is not beneficial? The devs can see it for other powersets and ATs... I am just at a loss for how to know what they are thinking.

Lets put a PB in a team where it has superb end recovery rate and hps rate be it regen or heals from a defender, it could potentially outperform Warshades with the same benefits. So the KB is calming things down and so is the level and rate of Stun. Warshades rely on mobs dying, numbers of mobs, PBs don't. PBs don't have to exist in the thick of everything as much as Warshades to reach an overall sustainable peak. Maybe on a PB it may pay to stop thinking like a Warshade I dunno. Given Arbiters qoute, farming is not the goal with PBs. If PBs are doing that then opps.

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim I do not understand what he sees as the role for human form, or what analysis he is possibly using to make his worries about the KB to KD debate viable.

Human form has secondary effects (or lets just say effects that isn't damage) now all those effects to a creative mind can pull things in favour of a team. The creative mind can come up with dynamics to turn a tide for even the weakest looking team against seemingly insurmountable odds whilst the caveman mind just knows it wants to run in and hit things with a club, eat dirt, res and hit it again. Those secondary effects should help remove the wonder of what human form is for to the creative mind.

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim Peacebringers basically have very little VIABLE AOE mez options currently. Their KB puts enemies out of range of their best attacks, and they are better off using an attack than Pulsar. They can defeat minions well enough (or hold a troublesome well enough) that it's not worth using on just them when the lts. and bosses will still be roaming.

I get a lot out of my Pulsar, some people writing it off don't even have it, some have it but then don't really slot it and those who do have it and slot it well, have a Warshade and they're seriously happy with the stuns -> pretty much want their PB to do the same stuff when it's meant to be different.

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim Again, I don't know what use he thinks Pulsar has, or what kind of analysis he is using that shows the improvement would be overpowering. Peacebringers can't do the mez or soft control that other sets take for granted.

I perma mezz most minions, thats a good lot of attacks not coming my way, it's a lot like hard control to me as they can't be damaged out of it or woken etc.

I'll stop it here incase my internet dies.

Wow. I love Peacebringers, but this is wearing rose-colored glasses. To such an extent that I'm having a hard time following your logic. Damage in human form attacks seem on par with Tankers, but that's okay to you? What's Dwarf form? The Peacebringer uber tank form? Human form had better be a different approach than tanking, or Dwarf is really up a creek. If the different forms don't have different capabilities and viabilities, we might as well just get rid of them.

I'd love to like Pulsar. I've had it on my PB ever since I made one, and I still have it well slotted on both of of his builds. Listening to you talk about it, you'd think it was the best thing ever, which it certainly can sound like when looked at in a vacuum. A moped can sound like the best form of transportation ever (it's better than walking or running!) if you leave motorcycles, cars, trucks, or even planes, etc. out of the equation.

Pulsar pales in comparison to anything Warshades can do with mez and at best comes out as a wash with their toggle stun. VEATs? Forget about it. The melee ATs frequently get KD in attacks that can do MORE than Pulsar can.

You noted that you can lock down minions with Pulsar, but in all honesty, you're better off using other powers at the start of the fight. It's a long animation, and even though I hate the KB in Solar Flare, it's better at the start and more likely to affect the entire mob. Egads, what a statement. But you can follow up on the minions well enough after that, and really, with all your resists, the only minions that are a major issue are Sappers. You can use pulsar then if you want, but your ST melee attacks will take them out far better.

I seem to be reiterating the same ideas in Blaster and Peacebringer threads. Both groups are not broken and do well enough in game. But it doesn't pay to put on rose colored glasses and pretend that there aren't issues with certain powers and capabilities of the two, particularly in comparison to what other, comparable sets can do.

The issue isn't that Peacebringers get along "okay" enough to play the game solo and on teams (which I agree with). The issue is that they're not doing well enough or standing out as they should, i.e. they're not balanced as they need to be.

Peacebringers can do what Warshades can't do, solo and in teams. You can't have them performing in areas Warshades do better at too. Hell lets just delete Warshades.

You may differ on your experience with PBs and Blasters for that matter, I'll inform you that I have more level 50 Blasters than anything else, my Avatar, my forum name, is a Blaster and just for starters I solo Frostfire at level 6/7 with them as a ritual a mere start of rituals. The Rikti challenge that Scrappers do, can be done with a Blaster.

I love active mitigation. I like secondary effects. I like working on my timing, my positioning, I like getting to know the enemy for holes in their defense/AI common sense. I like not having passive defense hiding all my mistakes or lack of ingenuity.

What have I done with PBs? Well I got to admit I don't play them as much but I do know how to blast and I will play tanks. PBs do both basically with a few extras that people may skip (but are there with good reason). So then it's just taking what I know from other ATs and applying it to a PB perhaps having certain things easier.

What else? On Excel, two builds, same mindset built them, not mine and it works out PBs can do more damage than WSs. PBs are potentially limited by any secondary effect counterproductive to maximum targeting potential and the endurance bar which in the Warshades case given their best model for performance aka a farm mission is not something to worry about.

I can't help but feel that any buffs to the PB has to be the right buffs. All Pros and Cons considered. Some buffs asked for count for Warshades too like the toggle suppression and so I like that one. I am not sure that reduction of shapeshift time needs to happen, shortening it maybe aesthetically displeasing to some people. The toggle suppression change can in itself make up for any loss in DPS that people may cry about from shapeshifting.

The PB has greater ranged multitargeting damage potential than the WS in Human form. The Warshade has potentially better endurance recovery rate. Both ATs could do with what the others got. That's precisely how it's meant to be. In teams they can utilize eachother, soloing their experiences can differ which is a good thing.

There are plenty of things Arbiter Hawk has to get on with, no doubt and I have no doubt that he's taken opinions on board and is looking to do something in good time. I can't help but feel I keep seeing the same threads over and over.