Quote:
Well it's quite possible you know something I don't, but as of noon-ish today the last semi-public word on the subject was that it's indeterminate whether that's working as intended or not. Given that Synapse was already willing to boost the values once, I say we may yet be surprised!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, not exactly. The original ATIO increased minion crit chance by one percentage point and the higher crit chance by two percentage points. Essentially equivalent to increasing the critical chance by 20%. It will now boost by 2 and 4 instead, an increase of 40%. As far as I know, the powers with an explicit 15% chance to crit are only going to be boosted by the higher value, it won't be increasing by six percentage points.
The crit bonus got higher, but it did not change the way it functioned. |
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What I'm saying is that you said:|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Well it's quite possible you know something I don't, but as of noon-ish today the last semi-public word on the subject was that it's indeterminate whether that's working as intended or not. Given that Synapse was already willing to boost the values once, I say we may yet be surprised!
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Quote:
| The scrapper AT set is being changed to function how I initially thought it did, i.e. such that it modifies the specific crit rates of powers as opposed to applying a flat buff to the basic 5% rate. |
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No they aren't. Stalkers, Widows and Banes all do as well.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
This is part of what I was touching on with comments made elsewhere. Scrappers, IMO, are the only player-predators that have to run down their meals (without the benefit of a ranged arsenal). It, sometimes, literally takes someone else holding them in place (through aggro or controls) to allow Scrappers their full DPS.
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The problem is not an AT problem. It's an AI problem. The AI did not always behave this way. It should be possible to change it back.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Just out of curiosity, what happens to the ones that decide to stay?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
But when something is supposed to be a powerhouse of a foe runs away as soon as my reactive kicks in, I get annoyed every single time.
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The same thing that happens to the ones that run away but at least those that die facing me get to do so while seeing me smile.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Just out of curiosity, what happens to the ones that decide to stay?
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Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Banes have tons of inset ranged.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
No they aren't. Stalkers, Widows and Banes all do as well.
The problem is not an AT problem. It's an AI problem. The AI did not always behave this way. It should be possible to change it back. |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Actually, many of them just keep running until they run into another spawn that looks just like them, and then say "free beer" and point back over their shoulder.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The same thing that happens to the ones that run away but at least those that die facing me get to do so while seeing me smile.
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They can, depending on branch focus and build, as can Widows, and just as Scrappers and Stalkers can with Spines.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Banes have tons of inset ranged.
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The initial claim remains invalid.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Widows [have] both range and control options; either branch.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
They can, depending on branch focus and build, as can Widows, and just as Scrappers and Stalkers can with Spines.
The initial claim remains invalid. |
SoA has control, pets, ranged and ranged AoE attacks; either branch. Plus Placate.
Stalkers have Placate and Demoralize.
Spines is not an AT and is not representative of an entire AT
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I'm sorry, what exactly do Placate and Demoralize have to do with your claim that Scrappers are the only AT that has to worry about fleeing mobs with "no ranged arsenal"?
Neither Placate or Demoralize does anything to stop fleeing mobs. And heck, if you want to get into Scrapper powers in the Placate spot, Scrappers get an actual Taunt in Confront, that trumps any runner-stopping tools Stalkers get. (Widows can get it too, oddly.)
And if you build a Night Widow instead of a Fortunate, you get a grand total of three ranged a attacks (Mental Blast, Poison Dart and Dart Burst). Very few people worried about DPS take all of those, and some take none, taking a Patron or Epic Pool ranged attack (Gloom!) instead. Which, of course, all Scrappers (and Stalkers) can do as well, though they don't get the wonderful DPA of Gloom.
Give it up. This is not a Scrapper-specific problem. That claim was silly.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You're right, runners are not a Scrapper specific problem but that's not what I said. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm sorry, what exactly do Placate and Demoralize have to do with your claim that Scrappers are the only AT that has to worry about fleeing mobs with "no ranged arsenal"?
Neither Placate or Demoralize does anything to stop fleeing mobs. And heck, if you want to get into Scrapper powers in the Placate spot, Scrappers get an actual Taunt in Confront, that trumps any runner-stopping tools Stalkers get. (Widows can get it too, oddly.) And if you build a Night Widow instead of a Fortunate, you get a grand total of three ranged a attacks (Mental Blast, Poison Dart and Dart Burst). Very few people worried about DPS take all of those, and some take none, taking a Patron or Epic Pool ranged attack (Gloom!) instead. Which, of course, all Scrappers (and Stalkers) can do as well, though they don't get the wonderful DPA of Gloom. Give it up. This is not a Scrapper-specific problem. That claim was silly. |
Runners do present issues for all AT types; Scrappers are the AT that's least equipped to prevent in from happening or deal with it when it does. And in certain scenarios (like solo play, where a player has to run down a hard target); it can decrease DPS. I don't see the difficulty in understanding that concept. Or the need to over inflate a simple point.
I shouldn't even have to debate the issue over the ATs you suggested but it was your counterpoint; so I went with it:
Having access to multi-builds; coupled with the flexibility of VEATs... unless a player chooses to pigeon-hole himself into one specific build, VEATS are a poor choice of comparison point.
Even if we wanted to go that (now whittled down to one branch) route, two ranged attacks and two ranged AoE (excluding Patrons) are better than one or none; its the difference between being able to take out a running target (or an entire fleeing mob) with minimal contact from other mobs, chasing the target(s) down into other mobs or waiting it out until the straggler(s) returns to the spawn point.
Demoralize and Placate keep mobs from running in the first place. Demoralize is also an AoE (much better than a ST taunt, IMO).
Scrappers (generally speaking) are the player version of Fire Imps.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
No they are not.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Runners do present issues for all AT types; Scrappers are the AT that's least equipped to prevent in from happening or deal with it when it does.
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Quote:
| And in certain scenarios (like solo play, where a player has to run down a hard target); it can decrease DPS. I don't see the difficulty in understanding that concept. Or the need to over inflate a simple point. |
Quote:
| Having access to multi-builds; coupled with the flexibility of VEATs... unless a player chooses to pigeon-hole himself into one specific build, VEATS are a poor choice of comparison point. |
Quote:
| Demoralize and Placate keep mobs from running in the first place. Demoralize is also an AoE (much better than a ST taunt, IMO). |
Do you even play a Stalker?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I don't play a lot of Stalkers; however, the ones I'm soloing have less issues with runners than my Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
No they are not.
I understand what you said. It was a factual error. At the very absolute most minimal level, it is a problem they share with Stalkers. In fact, if we're going to go riffling through all their powers, even ones builds don't often prioritize, Scrappers have at least one tool for stopping Runners that Stalkers don't - confront. It also dawns on me with this post that Stalkers have exactly zero taunt auras, making it pretty clear to me that they are the ones least equipped to deal with runners. Seriously? You're going to suggest that multiple builds factors into this? Wow, dude, talk about reaching. I'm going to concede the general point on Banes, but either you don't play a melee Widow or you have very strange definition of what a "ranged arsenal" means if you think a Night Widow spec character has tools that help a lot with runners. I compare it directly to what my Scrappers with epic ranged attacks get. If you think terror keeps mobs who are debuffed or on fire from running, I question how much you ever use any terrorizing power. And Placate keeps one mob in place until you attack it. News flash - nothing runs until you use powers on them that cause them to run. Placate factors into that absolutely not at all, since it is canceled as soon as such a power affects them. Do you even play a Stalker? |
What's happening with my Stalkers is I'm 1 to 2-shotting the hard target and utilizing any Demoralize to ST the softer targets. I'm not AoEing the whole spawn or setting anyone on fire; my spawns aren't usually getting the chance to run from me, en masse. I consider Placate a 'guaranteed critical' and depending on the follow-up attack (and the runner); that's an awesome way to stop a runner.
The newer setup is allowing me to up my Crits while STing; so the process gets even better at times.
I haven't gotten my rhythm down on the Stalker ATIO but I notice the Crit bump there as well.
(Although I prefer my Fortunata build) I've alternated between two and three ranged attacks on my Night Widow build precisely to catch runners in the back. I also use runners to my advantage (for both my NW and Stalkers) to slip back into Hidden-for-Crit mode.
Another thing about Widows is the -SPD that most of their attacks have. Yes, even on my NWs, I get a control tool.
And I have seen street-sweep spawns that have at least one runner, damaged or otherwise (Family in Cap, Atlas Park spawns, etc), that would bug out almost immediately after combat starts. Many times.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
For what it's worth, "intelligent" minions that actively went and got help when they were overwhelmed? That'd be awesome.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, many of them just keep running until they run into another spawn that looks just like them, and then say "free beer" and point back over their shoulder.
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Like, a total pain to deal with. But also awesome.
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Actually, because stalkers tend to lack AoEs which can temporarily break terrorize, the terrorize in demoralize is much more effective at preventing running on a stalker than it might be on a scrapper.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you think terror keeps mobs who are debuffed or on fire from running, I question how much you ever use any terrorizing power.
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The lack of AoEs might also reduce the inducement to run, so while Stalkers may not have more tools to deal with it, they might cause it to happen less often. One component of the fleeing behavior seems to be tied to how many of a critter's friends are defeated in a span of time. AoEs tend to kill more things at once, while single target attacks tend to reduce the kill per second rate.
Personally, I think its less that Stalkers can stop runners and more that they tend by mechanical design to generate less runners. They also tend to fight less numbers of targets specifically because there is little advantage to fighting large numbers when you have no AoE or taunt auras to aggregate them.
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That I can mostly agree with, though Electric Melee and maybe Dual Blades have respectable AoEs that might change that. Even though I play Martial Arts and Dark Melee, the MA (who's 50) I still gets plenty of runners when, say, I throw Judgement on stuff. And any time I'm fighting something I can't just melt (there's going to be less of that in I22), my Interface DoT still sets it running.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Personally, I think its less that Stalkers can stop runners and more that they tend by mechanical design to generate less runners. They also tend to fight less numbers of targets specifically because there is little advantage to fighting large numbers when you have no AoE or taunt auras to aggregate them.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Very true, which is why SR needs some buffs.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
This isn't a weakness of defense sets specifically. Characters that rely exclusively on one means of survival, be it controls, defense, heals, resistance or their teammates, are easily crushed.
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This game has evolved over the years. It's a much better game because it's become more complex/involved/detailed. IO's were a great addition to the game because they allowed players to make their characters more detailed, allowed for more flexibility in builds, and provided improved layered defenses so their super heroes could actually feel 'super'.
SR suffers because of what you pointed out - the game has evolved to the point where defense sets need layered defenses, both from the set itself, as well as IO's, and now incarnate powers, to be competitive. And while IO's did improve defense ability of all sets, this did devalue the strength of SR, because again, that's pretty much all SR offers. Yes, I know it has scaling resistance as you get low on health, but from my experience it's not very valuable relative to what pretty much any other set has. And not only was SR's strength devalued by IO's, it was further eroded as the devs have introduced many defense busting mechanics in recent releases, especially in the incarnate content.
So what's the fix? It certainly shouldn't be nerfing IO's and thereby literally bringing every single set down to SR's level, especially now that the game has a plethora of defense busting enemies running around. And while I agree that IO's should have the resistance bonuses increased to make building resistance a viable alternative to building for defense, I don't think that would be enough to bridge the gap because it would also benefit competing sets. I think if the devs were to buff SR, they would first have to determine if they wanted the set to remain basically a survival set, or if they wanted to add some offensive utility. If they went the survivability route, I'd add some sort of heal or regen, which could be explained as speedy metabolism. If they wanted to add some offensive utility, maybe they could add a to hit buff or dmg buff as a super reflex hero would be able to get around defenses and hit soft spots with such a reflexive advantage.
I don't think SR needs a massive revamp, and I know there are some steadfast supporters of the set, but IMO, it is lagging behind just about every secondary, especially later in the game, and especially when you run into all the added enemies that go right through defense, regardles of DDR.
But SR gets scaled resistances right? Should that not be looked at first "IF" and yes that is a BIG **** IF, SR is indeed lacking somehow?
I regularly kill AV's on my DM/SR scrapper, have for years, and it has only gotten easier to do since incarnates. IDK, I just feel people have the neighbor got a new car thing going on here.
Scrappers are not lagging in performance that I can see.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
I think Cybernaut and others have made valid points. IF their is a problem with SR, it is the problem inherent in single focus sets versus layered mitigation sets. Single focus sets reach a point of diminishing returns very quickly (Ex. soft cap) and often take a larger investment of finite resources (slots and power choices). IO sets and incarnate abilities can do a lot to layer mitigation for these sets but some the same can be said for layered mitigation sets such as Invulnerability or Willpower. Their is also a concern by many, myself included, that changes be thematically appropriate for the power. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Very true, which is why SR needs some buffs.
This game has evolved over the years. It's a much better game because it's become more complex/involved/detailed. IO's were a great addition to the game because they allowed players to make their characters more detailed, allowed for more flexibility in builds, and provided improved layered defenses so their super heroes could actually feel 'super'. SR suffers because of what you pointed out - the game has evolved to the point where defense sets need layered defenses, both from the set itself, as well as IO's, and now incarnate powers, to be competitive. And while IO's did improve defense ability of all sets, this did devalue the strength of SR, because again, that's pretty much all SR offers. Yes, I know it has scaling resistance as you get low on health, but from my experience it's not very valuable relative to what pretty much any other set has. And not only was SR's strength devalued by IO's, it was further eroded as the devs have introduced many defense busting mechanics in recent releases, especially in the incarnate content. So what's the fix? It certainly shouldn't be nerfing IO's and thereby literally bringing every single set down to SR's level, especially now that the game has a plethora of defense busting enemies running around. And while I agree that IO's should have the resistance bonuses increased to make building resistance a viable alternative to building for defense, I don't think that would be enough to bridge the gap because it would also benefit competing sets. I think if the devs were to buff SR, they would first have to determine if they wanted the set to remain basically a survival set, or if they wanted to add some offensive utility. If they went the survivability route, I'd add some sort of heal or regen, which could be explained as speedy metabolism. If they wanted to add some offensive utility, maybe they could add a to hit buff or dmg buff as a super reflex hero would be able to get around defenses and hit soft spots with such a reflexive advantage. I don't think SR needs a massive revamp, and I know there are some steadfast supporters of the set, but IMO, it is lagging behind just about every secondary, especially later in the game, and especially when you run into all the added enemies that go right through defense, regardles of DDR. |
Super Reflexes itself needs to be defined as a defensive favored set, defensive favor set, or a true hybrid set. IF SR is to be a defensive set putting better consistent resist numbers in the passives would do a lot to bridge the performance gap. Think of it as using your superior reflexes to roll with impacts. These resist numbers would be appropriate against all types of damage save toxic and Psi
IF SR is to be balanced to an offensive roll perhaps adding additional accuracy, damage, and to-hit buffs should be layered into the passives.
If SR is to be a truly hybrid set all of the above suggestions could be used though buffing actives and passives to increase all previously mentioned abilities without overloading specific powers.
To me thematically SR should not have increased regeneration or plus hit point powers since the set relies on avoiding damage, not soaking damage, so using regeneration and hit point buffs seem thematically inappropriate.
Will you all leave my iCapped, 400% Regen, 2,000 HP */SR Scrapper ALONE?!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Quote:
-Sarcasm detected-|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Will you all leave my iCapped, 400% Regen, 2,000 HP */SR Scrapper ALONE?!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
But SR gets scaled resistances right? Should that not be looked at first "IF" and yes that is a BIG **** IF, SR is indeed lacking somehow?
I regularly kill AV's on my DM/SR scrapper, have for years, and it has only gotten easier to do since incarnates. IDK, I just feel people have the neighbor got a new car thing going on here. Scrappers are not lagging in performance that I can see. |
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I have a claws/SR while not the AV killer the DM/SR is, it does very very well. I guess I can see where people would want more mitigation for the 5% that gets through, but I thought that is what tough was for.
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Originally Posted by Kangstor
-Sarcasm detected-
Try to play SR with any weapon set (I am not saying btw that its a weak combination I have been playing with kat/SR since I got the game just before CoV launch. There isn't any truely weak scrapper combination I am just saying its harder) than we will talk DM has some mitigations that SR lacks most of others don't. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
hmmm... Scrappers getting a re-balance (and not a nerf)... hmmm. Bull sheet. Scrappers also do not need a taunt aura. Tanks, brutes, scrappers. Not an order of best to worst but an order of Aggro mitigation (best to less best). Scrappers are the least likely thing to get readjusted. If you fix stalkers (currently happening for those that aren't up on this stuff) and then "fix" scrappers... your just gonna be taking one step forward and two back on the whole balance issue. "Yay my stalker is closer to being as tuff' as a scrapper...... wait WdaF now my stalker is craap again."
I don't mind the whole forum brainstorming on a useless topic thing... but this one is just hapless. IMO.
People who think Brutes trump Scrappers are misinformed. Scrappers and Brutes both play differently. Making Scrappers "better" to make them on par with Brutes will only make this (non-issue) more of an issue.
IOs do make ALL ATs crossover each other to the point that it's getting hard to tell the tanks from the defenders. I don't think it's a bad thing. My blaster doesn't die. With an SO build he might as well just stay at the hospital. My point being an SO'd scrapper -v- brute no doubt plays differently. With IO builds it's less clear what the diffence is. But brutes hold aggro better. Scraps critical more often. Brutes work up to kick-azz damage and Scraps start out with good damage numbers, but it stays constant. And Scrapps can't Resist the same amount as damage a Brute can. WHY did I just point out what WE ALL KNOW.... cause changing Scrappers to make them closer to what Brute can do.... Will blur these differences further. And a scrapper nerf would just herd the sheep right to Brutes.
But.... if they up'd the damage cap on Scrappers and gave them a Fury type inherant power that wasn't +damage but +recharge. Would be a change I'd like to test.
But for my money Scrappers are fine as is... and if you increase or decrease the AT you'd only fukk up the balance. And fukk balance anyway.
PS: had an after thought (actually read a few more posts) SR is MY set. Was my first set ever.... i loves it. But my IO'd to all hell blaster has the same positional defense numbers (I know... SR has DDR... but my blasters got poor mans DDR... it's called purples). Also tier 9 (elude) on SR is skipable with IOs. I'd like a the T9 power that Shield gets (on Regen tooo). Now this and the posts that inspired the thought are really talking about improving SR (oh a self heal would be nice also). But all of this should be LOW LOW LOW on the list of things to do for the Devs. If it ain't broke....
Check out this!!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/LastRoninCoH/featured
A good revamp for SR would be making elude droping %5 auto hit up to some points (not much maybe droping it to %4 or %3 auto hit) and drops the endurance buff from it. I think it would make the sets tier 9 worthy without breaking game much and gives SR a little more edge on its specialty.
It's idiotic when a GM runs from you when you put a debuff or DoT on them, even though it would take you 15 minutes of bashing on them to defeat them, if you even could.
They don't just run from Scrappers. They run from everyone who can DoT or debuff them, who flies, who has high defense, or any combination of these things.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars