Rumored Scrapper "Rebalancing?"


Android_5Point9

 

Posted

When someone says "two scrappers are always worse than two corruptors," that's directly comparable to someone saying "a brute is always better than a ____." No such generalization over the archetypes is ever true. I haven't duoed the LGTF with two scrappers to prove it to be false, but it should be plainly obvious that two scrappers can be constructed that can stack mag 16 status effects, fly, do ranged damage, and kill AVs rapidly with lore pets, same as any AT. That plus a little chutzpah are all you need to run a speed LGTF. I think it telling that the fastest teams are always mixed, however. It demonstrates that balance in CoH is not as bad as some people would like to think.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
That is demonstrated to be false every time a defender/mastermind combo does something cool against, apparently, all odds.
Some people believe that if you can find a performance maxima, nothing else matters, and the perfmance maxima they have found (or believe they have found) is all one should strive to. They usually conveniently ignore that such performance maxima only appear under specific conditions or only apply to only one performance metric, often because they prefer playing only under those conditions or value that performance metric above all others. That means the peak they've found is a great fit for them, but then some of them come to the forums and proclaim how they don't understand why anyone would play anything else.

The question that needs to be raised in such situations is whether fiddling with the conditions or looking at other criteria lets other builds, powersets or ATs take the spotlight. If not, and there's always one clear numerical winner, then there may be a real problem worth of redress by the devs. The problem is usually that people who post about this sort of thing very rarely do the due diligence of really looking at the whole picture.

It can be an easy trap to fall into. I'm sure I've fallen into it at times in the past. I like to think I've learned to take a broad view over the years, to try and take in more of the picture.

Even though most players share interest in maximizing certain kinds of performance, like XP/time or defeats/time, not everyone shares the same levels of interest in it relative to other kinds of performance. What matters is whether the characters they enjoy playing, the way they enjoy playing them, have some relevance to the game. I think relevance requires two things - that their character provides a service to a team that teams actually desire or appreciate, and that their performance at providing that service is not clearly eclipsed by another type of character.

I don't think that either Stalkers or Brutes clearly eclipse the things a Scrapper does. They do similar things slightly differently, with slightly different performance maxima. I think the I22 changes to Stalkers finally make what they do not be clearly eclipsed by both Scrappers and Brutes - a problem I do think they had until now.


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Posted

So we're back to "nerf stacking buffs/debuffs?"


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
So we're back to "nerf stacking buffs/debuffs?"
Yup. Kind of like a broken record around here.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

I'm gonna take my cue on game balance from titan, staff and perma-lightform: They don't care, why should I? There's enemies to kill for profit!


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Well perma light form and Inner light have made a nice difference from my old I9 PB.

I can't wait for Staff. My toon LunarKnight is already waiting.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

I'm hoping that I can talk customer service into locking me out of TW again and putting those points toward staff instead. Since I'm not asking for the points back... maybe?


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

CSB time:

I've had the impression for over a year now that brutes were more fun than scrappers. Fury meant I could slot early for acc, end, and rech, while my scraps were either scraping for damage or blue skittles. And since I mostly did tips and groups, I was never really at a loss for enough mobs to keep the fury up. Jump in, whale away, and let fury make the good times roll.

A couple days ago, I decided to take my main brute on a solo journey to talk to Tina pick up Portal Jockey. It wasn't until I found myself running down way too long corridors with way too few robots to smash that I found that maybe a scrapper who did something other than lethal wouldn't totally suck. So after pondering, I shifted a spare brute over to another server and rolled a StJ/SD. Two days, four DFBs, and nineteen levels later, and I'm sold. She hit like a truck right out of the sewers and keeps on trucking without gasping for breath every other mob. I love her concept, her costume, how Street Justice flows, and how she can dive right in without needing a few warm up hits.

So I'm with UberGuy: Scrappers are good the way they are.


Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

 

Posted

LOL not a chance.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
LOL not a chance.
You're probably right but i must try! Surely I can solo cust-serv.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon View Post
CSB time:

I've had the impression for over a year now that brutes were more fun than scrappers. Fury meant I could slot early for acc, end, and rech, while my scraps were either scraping for damage or blue skittles. And since I mostly did tips and groups, I was never really at a loss for enough mobs to keep the fury up. Jump in, whale away, and let fury make the good times roll.

A couple days ago, I decided to take my main brute on a solo journey to talk to Tina pick up Portal Jockey. It wasn't until I found myself running down way too long corridors with way too few robots to smash that I found that maybe a scrapper who did something other than lethal wouldn't totally suck. So after pondering, I shifted a spare brute over to another server and rolled a StJ/SD. Two days, four DFBs, and nineteen levels later, and I'm sold. She hit like a truck right out of the sewers and keeps on trucking without gasping for breath every other mob. I love her concept, her costume, how Street Justice flows, and how she can dive right in without needing a few warm up hits.

So I'm with UberGuy: Scrappers are good the way they are.
Yes, when using Shield Defense as the comparison scrappers are awesome. They have the brute advantage of a taunt aura, and they are one of the few secondaries that work better on scrappers because of the AAOs and the mechanics of Shield Charge.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
Yes, when using Shield Defense as the comparison scrappers are awesome. They have the brute advantage of a taunt aura, and they are one of the few secondaries that work better on scrappers because of the AAOs and the mechanics of Shield Charge.
I wish people would stop posting stuff that makes me want to come here and roll my eyes at them.

So "one of the few secondaries that work better". Really. Is this more slavish attachment to "taunt-auras-or-bust", or just a really bitter way to state the obvious that a mitigation powerset is going to "work better" with higher base HP?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
You're probably right but i must try! Surely I can solo cust-serv.
OK, that made me lol.

Bring lots of inspirations!


Blue
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Red
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I wish people would stop posting stuff that makes me want to come here and roll my eyes at them.

So "one of the few secondaries that work better". Really. Is this more slavish attachment to "taunt-auras-or-bust", or just a really bitter way to state the obvious that a mitigation powerset is going to "work better" with higher base HP?
Um, it's the fact that Fury dilutes the big AAO damage bonus, and chasing Fury means sometimes opening with a Shield Charge means you'll be doing less comparative damage. The scrapper higher damage modifier really makes a big difference here and isn't boosted by Fury like damage auras are. And yes, it has a taunt aura as well.

PS: Taunt aura or bust!


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
Um, it's the fact that Fury dilutes the big AAO damage bonus, and chasing Fury means sometimes opening with a Shield Charge means you'll be doing less comparative damage. The scrapper higher damage modifier really makes a big difference here and isn't boosted by Fury like damage auras are.
I understand why AAO works better on a Scrapper. That wasn't at all what I was taking issue with. It was the idea that apparently most anything else works "better" on a Brute.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I understand why AAO works better on a Scrapper. That wasn't at all what I was taking issue with. It was the idea that apparently most anything else works "better" on a Brute.
There has been a lot of discussion over whether a scrapper offers advantages that make it worth playing over an equivalent Brute, and there are players on both sides of the fence with a variety of opinions and arguments there. I think it was established early on in most of these discussions that /Shield Defense was definitely a set that favored Scrappers for a variety of reasons previously discussed.

If someone wants to jump on add anecdotal evidence that Scrappers offer as much as Brutes then Shield Defense is probably not the set to use to make that comparison. It is pretty well established that the set is awesome on scrappers.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

OK, you still haven't responded to what I said in my initial post.

You said SD was "one of the few secondaries that work better".

I'm not asking you why it works better on a Scrapper. I'm asking you why you hold that the other powersets work better on a Brute. Is it because Brutes unconditionally get taunt auras, or is it something else? Because other than getting taunt auras, most of the sets are functionally identical in terms of power scale.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Because other than getting taunt auras, most of the sets are functionally identical in terms of power scale.
If by functionally identical you mean they have the same base values, then sure.

But does that mean they are actually functionally identical? I don't think so. You mentioned earlier the higher base HP brutes get. It makes a considerable and measurable difference on the mitigation front, causing all the secondaries to perform better for brutes than they do scrappers. Is that balanced against the higher(?) damage output of scrappers? I dunno, probably, maybe...


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Not only is scrapper damage potential higher, the ATOs widen the gap. Average brute performance is improved a great deal, yet nothing can help a brute that is already damage capped. Now scrappers have a larger crit window than ever. So yes, scrappers definitively have a performance advantage. The annoying part is that brute boosters, or brewsters as I like to call them, tend to selectively ignore that because they're so high on life due to their sheer bruteyness. I admire the enthusiasm, it's great that you love brutes, but they're not objectively better, they have certain pros and cons just as scrappers do. I personally have come to accept that Moonlighter, mauk2 and others simply prefer brutes but that's where this mini-conflict is coming from.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
Yes, when using Shield Defense as the comparison scrappers are awesome. They have the brute advantage of a taunt aura, and they are one of the few secondaries that work better on scrappers because of the AAOs and the mechanics of Shield Charge.
Except she was twenty-one levels away from Shield Charge and two from AAO when she was rockin' through the Midnighters' arc and her first couple radios. Her damage definitely felt stronger. I think the real difference was having all four DFB buffs and the Prae Origin enhancements, they all help a great deal in the early going.


Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon View Post
Except she was twenty-one levels away from Shield Charge and two from AAO when she was rockin' through the Midnighters' arc and her first couple radios. Her damage definitely felt stronger. I think the real difference was having all four DFB buffs and the Prae Origin enhancements, they all help a great deal in the early going.
Interesting. That is not my experience. Early before substantial damage enhancement Fury makes my Brutes hit *much* harder until SOs were my scrappers catch up.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Not only is scrapper damage potential higher, the ATOs widen the gap. Average brute performance is improved a great deal, yet nothing can help a brute that is already damage capped. Now scrappers have a larger crit window than ever. So yes, scrappers definitively have a performance advantage. The annoying part is that brute boosters, or brewsters as I like to call them, tend to selectively ignore that because they're so high on life due to their sheer bruteyness. I admire the enthusiasm, it's great that you love brutes, but they're not objectively better, they have certain pros and cons just as scrappers do. I personally have come to accept that Moonlighter, mauk2 and others simply prefer brutes but that's where this mini-conflict is coming from.
Um, my main is a scrapper and I far prefer the scrapper play style to that of a Brute.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
But does that mean they are actually functionally identical? I don't think so. You mentioned earlier the higher base HP brutes get. It makes a considerable and measurable difference on the mitigation front, causing all the secondaries to perform better for brutes than they do scrappers.
Well, in specific response to you (and not on the whole topic) I'm splitting hairs here and admit it, but they don't provide more mitigation. Applied to higher base HP, the combination provides better survival. But either way, fundamentally, I'm not arguing against the point you're making.

What I leapt on here was was they way it was said, which to me came off as "yeah, Shields is one of the only powersets it's better to play on a Scrapper, because the other secondaries 'work better' on Brutes". In this climate of so many people grousing for buffs to Scrappers because Stalkers were made to mostly not suck, that sounded like yet another dig at something being deficient with Scrappers, because they're not a Brute or Stalker. I think it's pretty self evident that X% damage mitigation applied to higher HP survives better, but I don't know if I'd have said it the way Moonlighter did. But maybe that's just because I'm looking for people saying something he wasn't.


Blue
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Well, in specific response to you (and not on the whole topic) I'm splitting hairs here and admit it, but they don't provide more mitigation. Applied to higher base HP, the combination provides better survival. But either way, fundamentally, I'm not arguing against the point you're making.

What I leapt on here was was they way it was said, which to me came off as "yeah, Shields is one of the only powersets it's better to play on a Scrapper, because the other secondaries 'work better' on Brutes". In this climate of so many people grousing for buffs to Scrappers because Stalkers were made to mostly not suck, that sounded like yet another dig at something being deficient with Scrappers, because they're not a Brute or Stalker. I think it's pretty self evident that X% damage mitigation applied to higher HP survives better, but I don't know if I'd have said it the way Moonlighter did. But maybe that's just because I'm looking for people saying something he wasn't.
I apologize if my comment came out an overly negative. I love scrappers, and can't wait to reroll my main as Staff. I really like Staff/Energy aura on test.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
Interesting. That is not my experience. Early before substantial damage enhancement Fury makes my Brutes hit *much* harder until SOs were my scrappers catch up.
It may depend on primary, or how aggressively one plays to build fury. At low levels with limited endurance and recharge, some attack sets don't build fury very well, and it can be hard to keep in end to maintain it, though if you get it going, blue inspiration drops may keep you rolling. Lucks help too, because they can allow you to pile into more foes, building/sustaining Fury better.

There's has to be range where a Scrapper's damage is above low-end lowbie Brute performance but below the sweet spot of sustained Fury, and relative feel may depend on both sets chosen and aggressiveness of play.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
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Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA